Who uses the X-Over System in the VTF?

[Ddavidson]

Just wondering how many people actually use the crossover in a VTF?

For the past countless years we have seen stereo systems more or less get put out to pasture. The vast majority of customers would be using their Hsu VTF subwoofer for home theater use (i.e. 5.1, 6.1, 7.1). As such most people need 5 or more channels of bass management (i.e. slope, crossover freq, redirection etc).

It stands to reason that they would not be using the crossover system in the VTF subwoofer (unless they like missing frequencies or doubling up).

If your receiver has say a fixed 80Hz x-over at a 12dB slope then that is what your VTF receives. Forget what the subwoofer says it can do because that is not relative in a home theater set-up. It really makes your choice of receiver (or pre-pro) a very vital decision if you want good bass management, so that your VTF blends in well with your other speakers.

Sort of makes me wonder why manufacturers persist in manufacturing something that is no longer needed by 98% of the people buying a subwoofer. For all the looking at saving a dollar in manufacturing, having no crossover system in the subwoofer must make it both cheaper and cleaner. Ultimately we really need digital amps able to be run by a digital subwoofer output. My Anthem pre-pro handles all the bass management in the digital domain including freq and slope (although it outputs analog).

Better bass management is now much more avaliable for the mass market. Even all the Denon and Onkyo receivers now at least have variable x-over selection. In the old analog stereo days the x-over in the sub was needed but now its really not worth a dime. Its only a matter of time before we will see no X-overs in subwoofers.

Ddavidson

[Lwang]

I don't have the VTF subs, but I use the analog high/low pass crossovers on all my Hsu subs instead of using the existing one on my Meridian pre/pro. There are a few reasons for this.

One is that because my Meridian does not believe in different crossover points for different speakers due to the deterious effect caused by summed electrical signal that has passed through filters of different parameters (although they had variable xo in 1hz increment since mid/late 90's). But in my situation with my maggies and the center channel's 160hz cutoff, I have a explicit need for that.

Another is that I have the flexibility to set high pass and low pass at different freq, allowing more overlap to fill in dips in the response or less overlap to smooth out response bumps.


One possiblilty is to sell the crossover/speaker level input as a seperate externally fitted module so that anyone that doesn't need it won't have to buy it. But the cost of using a seperate PCB, housing, power/signal routing, etc would probalby not make it much cheaper if you get it w/o the crossover, and definitely more expensive if you did.

Given some dirt cheap sub amps still include a crossover, and the main cost of it is still the case and power amplification stage. The cost of the junk crossover to the consumer probably amounted to no more than a couple of dollars.

[Ddavidson]

Just for the record, the VTF series has no HP X-Over filter. They only have a LP.

You sound like you are one of those 1-2% of people who may use analog due to your system shortcomings. Theta's internal slope/freq and crossover type selection per channel would help make the system far less messy. Meridian have neither crossover type selection and no slope rolloff selection per channel either. (variable options depends on x-over type you select)

Even for a 5.1 system to do what you suggest properly (without Doubling frequencies) you still need:
(1) Three x the Hsu X-Overs + Amps + Hsu bass optimizers + TN subs
Or the neater solution is that you need 3 x 500w amps + TN subs

You could as you say then run large (full range) on all channels and select your HP and LP chips per channel in the X-overs or 500w amps. Still this is quite expensive and messy no matter which way you look at it. (in the analog domain)

For me doing all this in the analog domain is total madness (not to mention messy) and it introduces phase dramas. Give me the Theta choice of bass management, and make it avaliable all in the digital domain.

Stereo systems made a lot of sense in the analog domain, but digital makes total sense for multichannel. You would have to be asleep not to notice that analog crossovers in subwoofers are a total waste of space and money, no matter how much some people like to reminisce about past needs and desires.

Making it an option is a good idea but you would find only 1-2% would take up the option so thats not worth while for most. This small market can be filled by outboard X-Overs like Hsu's excellent unit. I would rather see variable timing and a defeat switch on the auto on/off system. Or a longer power cable, or even a cover for a better looking presentation of the owners manual. Even a Hsu T-shirt would be better than a crossover system 98% of us do not use.

People like Revel and Aerial are putting 6 channel crossovers inside their subs.

http://www.aerialacoustics.com/Products/SW12/Large/SW12-11.jpg


http://boostercorp.com/ezimagecatalogue/catalogue/variations/749-400x500.jpg


Ddavidson

[rp1]

I think that you may be a bit premature in recommending the removal of the crossovers. I know that I, and many of my friends, are still two-channel purists or are having to integrate the subs into existing systems.

I, for one, would not have bought the sub without a workable crossover. The crossover on the VT3 is very very good for blending with high-quality ribbon or planar speakers.

[Sasha_G]

Originally posted by Ddavidson



Sort of makes me wonder why manufacturers persist in manufacturing something that is no longer needed by 98% of the people buying a subwoofer. For all the looking at saving a dollar in manufacturing, having no crossover system in the subwoofer must make it both cheaper and cleaner. Ultimately we really need digital amps able to be run by a digital subwoofer output. My Anthem pre-pro handles all the bass management in the digital domain including freq and slope (although it outputs analog).



I would say that over 20% of our customers use an integrated amp or preamp/amp setup that requires the sub to have a low pass filter.

Most of these are high end listeners that refuse to introduce anything in the signal path that is not absolutely necessary. For those who don't mind a minimalistic high pass crossover in the signal path, we offer a high pass box for the mains.

[Ddavidson]

I would say that over 20% of our customers use an integrated amp or preamp/amp setup that requires the sub to have a low pass filter.

I never would have doubted that 20% of TN series owners would have used an analog preamp/amp setup.

But I sure imagine that its not 20% of VTF owners, because I imagine like myself the much more popular VTF series owners would just about all use a surround sound setup (even for stereo listening). I know we have a few exceptions on this forum that run two systems (HT and analog) but lets be honest; That is not normal for the majority.

To me regardless of price it seems like surround sound systems are just about the only thing on sale at retail shops. All the two channel stores pretty much closed up, or went into surround sound and thus they are now keeping everything in the digital domain. Going analog is like going back to the arc now days.

Of course I could be wrong and in the minority (but I know I am not). For a start go and mention you want to see an analog stereo system at a shop now and they go "A WHAT".

I suppose like LP we have some die hards, but the vast majority would not be interested in an analog stereo only system. Its like going back to the 60s.

Look at it this way you can pretty much ask yourself What quality source is left avaliable or delivered as analog ? I would fully suggest it is Zip (0).


Most of these are high end listeners that refuse to introduce anything in the signal path that is not absolutely necessary.

Doing crossover and slope in the analog domain is a fast track to phase problems and other related anomolies.
Doing variable slope and HP/LP in the digital domain is simple easier and will result in a much cleaner sound.


I think that you may be a bit premature in recommending the removal of the crossovers. I know that I, and many of my friends, are still two-channel purists or are having to integrate the subs into existing systems.

Not really because analog only systems are dead (or close to death) as people are just not buying two channel analog only gear, except those very few die hards.

My thing is the VTF series would be mostly used in HT systems or HT/Stereo systems that are based around a digital receiver/pre-amp/amp system that includes crossover.
Cascading crossovers is a NO-NO so why if the VTF is in bypass in 98% of system is it of any value ?

Of course I fully understand the TN series amps and the fact the TN series has an analog crossover system. The TN series was originally targeted at analog stereo systems.

But the VTF series is obviously what the market wants not the TN series, because the market is digital surround sound.

Lets not forget even the humble stereo CD is a digital source that should be kept digital for as long as possible. This whole analog crossover thing is way out of date because we are all digital and have been for a long time.


I know that I, and many of my friends, are still two-channel purists or are having to integrate the subs into existing systems.

Funny but the it seems the purist ones that I have know like nothing in the signal path. A true die hard audiophile will not have a subwoofer at all and prefer full range speakers. Most die hards I have seen even still run those big black discs we called reference back in the 60's.http://hsuresearch.com/forum/images/icons/icon10.gif

Trouble is its 2003 and that is all very old history to the vast majority of people who are buying a VTF subwoofer. It makes sense for the old TN series that is aimed at that market, but the VTF is aimed at mainstream people who have a singular duel purpose HT/Music systems.

Ddavidson

[BASH]

I would not use the word "purist" to describe myself, but I am definetely into 2 channel analog. I just like the way it sounds. So I have a two channel for music and a 5.1 for home theatre.:cool:

[Sasha_G]

Ddavidson,

The use of the crossover for home theater is extremely limited. As you say, the subwoofer crossovers are handled nicely by the digital receiver, and almost all of the time the crossover is set "OUT".

To answer your question, "What quality source is left avaliable or delivered as analog ?" The crossover is used with audio sources in pro-audio recording setups, preamps, integrated amps, computer recording studios, and old receivers. Many people have bought very expensive and heavy duty analog sources years ago that have lasted into the digitial age. There are still a many configurations that demand the flexibility of the crossover. I would roughly estimate that 50% of TN Series users use the crossover, and that if you took all our customers, OVER 20% use it. I don't use it, and think that digitial crossovers work fine. But, to keep the subwoofers flexible, we would keep the crossover.

[Ddavidson]

I would roughly estimate that 50% of TN Series users use the crossover, and that if you took all our customers, OVER 20% use it.

Pretty much as I thought with the TN Series. But I think we all know that the real sales are in the VTF series because the market wants boxes and the market is 90%+ HT driven. The TN series just do not pass the WAF test, and as we know the WAF is the 2nd biggest obsticle we face. As my wife said they are not what people really want to put alongside house furniture.

Lets hope digital outputs on pre-pros and receivers come quickly. With the new digital amps starting to appear in subs this will make for a nice package over doing things via the old dinosaur analog methods of years gone by.

Here is hoping we can see an end to the wasted analog crossover. I must give credit to at least one manufacturer who can see this is happening and is introducing its digital inputs to its new range of digital amps.
Its the only real future and the way we will all be heading eventually. Make no mistake working in the analog domain certainly served us well for years.

Ddavidson