Any advantages to using HC-1 as fronts in 2 channel setup?

[shadyJ]

Can the tweeter keep up with the two woofers if I were to use some HC-1s as left/rights? My guess is yes, but I would also assume that the sound would be different. How would such a setup affect the sound as opposed to the HB-1s?

[skool]

I do not think it's wise to use the HC-1 as L/R speakers. Although there are many MTM designs that are meant to use for LCR usage, the HC-1 doesn't look like it can be use for LCR. Since the HB-1 is quite efficient, there's no need for HC-1 as mains. Also, if I am not mistaken, the HC-1's horn is rotated 90 degree in order to allow horitonzal sound dispersion since the speaker is horizontally oriented. If this is the case, you shouldn't be using the HC-1 as mains.

I'm curious though, is there any particular reason why you would want to use the HC-1 as mains?

[shadyJ]

The biggest reason is aesthetics. I love the muscular looks of my HB-1s, and the HC-1s look even meaner. These are speakers that look like they mean business (and they sound that way too!).
But I am also curious about the sound. I would have thought that an additional woofer would benefit the sound, if anything. Like perhaps you could turn it up higher with less distortion, or something like that. I am not sure though, I'm not too knowledgable about sound equipment.
Despite what you stated, I still think they could be used to decent effect as front L/Rs, because it says so in the manual for the HC-1:Left and Right Speakers
Although designed primarily as a center channel, many customers
have used it as main speakers. You can stand it up vertically, rotate the
horn 90 degrees, take out the rubber Crescents (part of the tilting
base that is attached to the speaker), and use it like you would with
the HB-1 MK2.All you have to do is take out the tweeter and rotate it to address the problem you stated. I just want to know how the additional woofer would color the sound.

[skool]

Well, if they are stated like that in the manual, then surely you shouldn't have any problem using them as mains. If your room is at least medium to large size, then you should try that setup and see. If it's smaller, then HB-1 should be enough.

[skool]

I would want to further add that even in the Ultra 4 Package by Hsu, you're only seeing 4 HB-1 and HC-1. Thus, I would assume that the HB-1 as tested by Dr. Hsu shouldn't have any problem in large rooms. From one review, distortion levels from the HB-1 stays less than 2% from 60 Hz to 20 kHz. This shows that the HB-1 should be able to pump out clean sounds even at high level and thus very suitable for large rooms!

[shadyJ]

I understand that in almost any situation the HC-1 wouldn't be better than the HB-1 at front L/R, what I am asking is how would it be different? I am assuming that the extra woofer would make a difference, but would that difference even be audible at all? Again, this idea of using the HC-1 as fronts is mostly for aesthetics, but how would it also affect the sound?

After comparing the specs, I have another question: the impedance is different between the HB-1 and the HC-1. The HB-1 has a nominal 4 ohms but the HC-1 is 8. Does that mean I need a lot more power (watts per channel) to drive the HC-1 to give thet same amount of sound? It makes sense that the additional woofer would give more resistance, but there is quite a bit that I don't understand about audio. I somehow got the impression from reading speaker reviews that speakers rated for lower ohms needed more power to drive. If thats true than the impedence rating for the HB-1 would mean they need more power to drive than the HC-1, but that doesn't make sense because there is more stuff to drive in the HC-1. What am I missing here?

[skool]

I don't think you need to worry about the impedance unless you do not have a decent receiver. From Secret Home Theater Review, it seems that the HB-1 nominal is actually around 8 ohm and I would expect the HC-1 to be closely similar. Hsu stated that it's 4 ohm minimum so that mean that you shouldn't expect to see any dip below the 4 ohm and so your receiver should have no problem driving the speaker. You should only be concern when minimum impedance falls below 4 ohm. There are many speakers out there that will dip below 4 ohms or even 2 ohms. Just because a manufacturer states it's 8 ohm does not mean it's 8 ohm across the frequency spectrum. Look at the impedance measurement graphs and you'll understand.

Regarding if HB-1 is "better" than HC-1, that may be subjective. In typical situation, one additional woofer resulted in better dynamics since each woofer doesn't work as hard to produce the same loudness compare one single woofer. Also, you will expect a slightly better bass response from one additional woofer. Midrange "may" be a little cleaner, but that's may be subjective as well.

However, regarding HC-1 verus HB-1, judging from specs, both have similar sentivity level at 92 dB/ 1 m. The HC-1 have a minimum dip of 8 ohm versus 4 ohm with the HB-1 and thus will be easier to drive. Beside that, the HC-1 "should not" be any better than the HB-1.

If I was you, instead of spending more money on the HC-1 setups, I would spend the additional money on a better HSU sub or better looking stands for the HB-1.

[cynan]

After comparing the specs, I have another question: the impedance is different between the HB-1 and the HC-1. The HB-1 has a nominal 4 ohms but the HC-1 is 8. Does that mean I need a lot more power (watts per channel) to drive the HC-1 to give thet same amount of sound?

The hometheaterhifi.com review of the HB-1/HC1 package determined that the HB-1 nominal impedance was much closer to 8 ohms than 4 ohms. unfortunately, they did not provide an impedance graph for the HC-1.

To answer your question directly, 2 speakers of equal sensitiviy (such as the HB-1 and HC-1), regardless of nominal impedance, will require identical power (watts) to achieve a given loudness (decibel) level. A difference in impedance has more to do with the power supply of the amplifier than with the speaker. That is to say, that an amplifier with a high current power supply is usually capable of supplying more wattage to a 4 ohm load (about 2x as much as to an 8 ohm load - generally a little less in all but the most efficient amplifiers because some of the extra power is lost as heat). However, your average AV receiver will not be built to drive 5 or 7 speakers at 4 ohms at full power and will overheat. Prior to overheating, distortion in the signal often increases.

For example, my Denon AVR-889 can deliver about 120 watts per channel into 2 channels (stereo) into an 8 ohm load. Now, theoretically, if the power transformer was really well built, it would be able to output close to 240 watts per channel into 2 4 ohm loads. But it can't, and only manages about 190-200 watts before crapping out (which is still pretty good for a $600 AVR). When you try and drive 5 or 7 channels, it is able to provide 100 watts into 8 ohm loads for each channel (it is advertised as a 100 watts/channel - and lives up to its promiss more or less). However, if you try and drive 5 or 7 4-ohm speakers, there is no way it would be able to put out close to 200 watts/channel as would be expected - the power transformer just can't keep up (in reality I think it manages not much more than 100 watts/channel when driving 5 channels into 4-ohm loads before overheating and tripping the thermal protection - though I have not tested this).

So, in summary, if you have a very well built power transformer section in your receiver/amplifier (with good thermal management), you will be able to get louder volumes with 4 ohm speakers over 8 ohm speakers that are of the same sensitivity. In the real world, however, for people who aren't using professional audio equipment, or home audio amplifiers that don't cost many hundreds/thousands of dollars, you may not see much difference in actual loudness. Furthermore, with cheaper AVRs, you will constantly run the risk of overheating the amplifier section when trying to audition at anywhere near max volume, and possibly burn out your low impedance speakers in the process.

Edit: Now, the HB-1 and HC-1 are probably no more than 4 ohms apart in their nominal impedance (assuming that the HC-1's nominal impedance lies somewhere between 8 and 12 ohms). Because both speakers' nominal impedance are 8 ohms or above, it is unlikely your amplifier will overheat when being driving to maximum levels, however, the small difference in impedance also means there is likely only a minor reduction in wattage which the amplifier is able to provide the HC-1 over the HB-1. Using my Denon 889 example, if able to supply 120 watts in stereo mode to the HB-1, it will be able to supply at least 80 watts to the HC-1. So yes, if it is accurate that both speakers have the same sensitivity, the HB-1 will be driven louder. However, the difference in actually loudness (decibels) between 80 and 120 watts is almost not worth worrying about (and probably difficult to discern). An advantage to the the HC-1s in an LCR configuration is that they may provide better imaging and dynamics due to increase in number of mid/bass drivers. However, whether noticeable gains in this area are actually realized over the HB-1 has a lot to do with the attributes of the speaker designs themselves, and one would probably have to do a comparison test between both arrangements (HC-1 or HB-1 as left/right) to tell for sure.

[shadyJ]

Wow, thanks for the 411 guys, those explanations put things together for me! I still may try the HC-1s for fronts because, like I said, more for 'looks' than any performance gains. I already have a VTF3 mk3 and a STF2 so I am taken care of on the bass front. I intend to get a ULS dual drive system sometime in the future but that will have to wait a awhile, as money is a little tight at the moment.

If and when I do any of this, I will let you guys know how it works out. Again, thanks for the info.

[cynan]

If and when I do any of this, I will let you guys know how it works out.

I'd definitely be interested in an A/B comparison between HB-1/HC-1s as front left/right speakers as I'm thinking of getting a new budget 5.0 system and the HBs are at the top of my list.

If I had to guess, I would say that there would not be much perceptual improvement in dynamics with HC-1s and left/right speakers over the HB-1s in most rooms. After all, if there was a significant upgrade in performance, why wouldn't HSU offer such a purchase option in their webstore? Nevertheless, I would be interested if someone actually tested this...

[shadyJ]

It will be awhile before I do any of this, although I do intend to do it.
But now my question is, what's a good amplifier to do this with? I don't want to use a receiver, just a good amplifier that will bring out the best in these speakers, and preferably something in the three to four hundred dollar range. Any recommendations?

[skool]

May I ask why would want to buy an external amp? What's your current AVR? How far are you sitting from the speakers? The speakers is quite effcient. I don't see any reason for an external amp in this case. If you're just itching for one anyway, look into Emotiva amps.

[shadyJ]

Right now I'm using a HK 3890, but I want to keep that for my HB-1s, as I am not going to replace those. I was thinking about getting the Emotiva XP5 to drive the HC-1s, that is if I like the way they sound as fronts. My idea is to take four HC-1s and stand them up on a couple ULS-15s to make a 2 channel wall of sound!
I know the XP5 is made for home theater, but I think it will be an elegent solution for driving 4 speakers in a kind of stereo mode. According to the Emotiva website I won't be wasting that extra channel as it distributes the power to the channels you are using, not to the ones that are going unused.
Also according to the Emotiva website, that equals 230 watts per channel. Now my question is, is that massive overkill for the HC-1? Is there any other way the speaker will benefit from that much available power outside of just getting louder? I have read that the more power in watts you have available, the better the spaekers will sound, regardless if they are being pushed loud or not. Is there substance to this or is it just another audiophile fairytale?
I know you guys think this whole scheme is crazy, but just imagine how this system will sound and look! It is going to be expensive though, so it will be awhile before it all comes together, maybe four or five months, IF I decide to actually go through with it.
Anyway, feel free to give advice or input about any of this, like I said before, I don't know a lot audio stuff- I just like the way these HSU speakers sound, and I want more of it!

[cynan]

Do you mean that you intend to use 2 HC-1s for each of the left and rights stereo channels? Doubling up speakers like this does not usually get you the most bang for your buck. You are better off putting the $1100 into a pair of floorstanders if bigger dynamics is what you are after.

Incidently, doubling up speakers like this does not get you double the sound/volume. For example, if you drive a single speaker at 90 decibels and add a second speaker playing at the same volume, you will only expeirence a couple more decibels of overall output.

I would got with a single pair of HC-1s or else look for a bigger speaker if larger dynamics is what you are after.

[shadyJ]

Hmm, I didn't know that. Thanks for telling me that, it does change things! I may go with single HC-1s then. Doubles for each channel would look cool, but I don't want to shell out an extra $500 for looks alone. I do love the way these things look though. The lighting in my room isn't so great, and the satin black finishes on these speakers seem to just absorb the light in here. It gives these speakers a sinister look, and I love it!
I guess that makes the Emotiva XP5 a little excessive then. I will have to find a better 2-channel amp for this project. Any suggestions for a cost-effective amplifier that will do these speakers justice?

[cynan]

Hmm, I didn't know that. Thanks for telling me that, it does change things! I may go with single HC-1s then. Doubles for each channel would look cool, but I don't want to shell out an extra $500 for looks alone. I do love the way these things look though. The lighting in my room isn't so great, and the satin black finishes on these speakers seem to just absorb the light in here. It gives these speakers a sinister look, and I love it!
I guess that makes the Emotiva XP5 a little excessive then. I will have to find a better 2-channel amp for this project. Any suggestions for a cost-effective amplifier that will do these speakers justice?

Well, you seem to like Emotiva, why not look at the UPA-2? Probably hard to beat it value-wise for a 2-channel power amplifier at $299. The XPA-2 would likely be overkill for the HB-1s or even HC-1s and likely not worth the extra $500, unless your goal was to squeeze every last ounce of perfomance out of the HSUs

[shadyJ]

OK, I have more questions. Before I was told that placing two like bookshelf speakers would not make much of an increase in loudness. But I remember reading claims from HSU that 2 ULS's would quadruple the output of one, and a quad-drive would have 16 times the output of a single ULS. Why would 2 HC-1s not do much more than a single HC-1 per channel, but the subs seem to multiply in output by the factor of how many are being used?
I assume it has to do with how low frequencies behave differently than higher ones, and I also assume it has something to do with placement.

Also, would the Alesis RA500 be a good amplifier for some HC-1's?
http://www.americanmusical.com/Item--i-ALE-RA500-LIST
I have been using a RA100 with some Alesis studio reference monitors for over a decade now, and I have never had any problems with it, but this is a whole different configuration. Would 125 watts per channel at eight ohms be sufficient for the HC-1s?

[cynan]

The claim that doubling the number of ULS-15s produces 4x the output may be a bit misleading, even though it may be absolutely accurate.

What HSU is referring to by "output" is intensity, which is a second order measure of power (watts per unit of area - as in meters squared). HSU's claimed 6 decibel increase with the addition of a second ULS-15 does correspond to a 4x increase in the amount of power (watts) per meter squared, but will absolutely not correspond to a 4x increase in perceptible volume level (loudness).

Without going into detail, the human ear, on average, is capable of discerning a doubling of intensity (watts/meters^2). Any increase less than a doubling in intensity is not very noticeable. A doubling in intensity corresponds to an increase of 3 decibels. A doubling in perceptible "loudness" is generally considered to coincide with a 10 decibel increase, which is equivalent to a 10x increase in intensity. Therefore, a 6 decibel increase, equivalent to a 4x increase in intensity is much less than even a doubling in perceptible loudness.

The decibel scale is a way to relate perceptible changes in sound level with actual intensity - and it just so happens that this relationship is exponential in the form of the logarithm with base 10.

Therefore, adding a second ULS-15 will give considerably less than even a 2x increase in loudness. While noticeable, adding a second identical sub will not sound a whole lot louder than a single sub. What it will do is help pressurise larger rooms and eliminate "bass holes". Therefore the main advantage of a second sub is consistent, more even sounding bass in the listening room - which may sound fuller and much more satisfying overall- yet only moderately louder. (Also, if a single sub is being pushed to its max in a given room to produce a desired volume level, adding a second sub will require both subs to generate half as much intensity - essentially they only have to work half as hard - which is beneficial for eliminating resonance or port noises that may be introduced when a sub is being pushed hard - obviously port noise does not apply to the ULS-15)

The same thing applies to using multiple HC-1s, except, as you referred to yourself, you do not tend to get the same benefits to adding more high-frequency drivers as you do with subwoofers, because, due to the shorter lengths of high-frequency sound waves, you do not encounter the equivalent of "bass holes" with higher frequencies. Therefore, your only benefit of adding duplicate front HC-1s will likely be a few more decibels (in the neighborhood of 3 db), which would only be slightly perceptibly louder.

So, in conclusion, it might only make sense to add 2x HC-1s (or HB-1s) if you were continually driving a single pair of the speakers at max levels (say around 200 watts/channel - 400 watts total). Doubling the speakers would effectively double power handling, therefore you would reduce artifacts that may be introduced when pushing the a single pair to max levels (and avoid risk of blowing a driver) as 2x the number of speakers would only have to work 1/2 as hard to produced the same overall intensity. However, remember that a doubling in intensity is only equivalent to a 3 decibel increase when driving 2 pairs at max levels (200 watts/channel - 800 watts total) which is only just noticeably louder.

In my opinion, it would generally make more sense to spend 2x the $$ on larger speakers, with larger driver arrays, which are generally capable of offering greater dynamics (as they are designed to make use of their larger surface area/number of drivers) where cheaper smaller speakers are not.

Now, if in the real world, there are no speakers that for 2x the $$ of the HC-1s offer noticeable improvements in dynamics , then it may be just as good to go with 2x HC-1s... But this becomes a debate of comparing the HSUs with speakers from other manufacturers as HSU does not offer any larger, more expensive speakers.

[geedipally]

[quote=shadyJ;41566]OK, I have more questions. Before I was told that placing two like bookshelf speakers would not make much of an increase in loudness. But I remember reading claims from HSU that 2 ULS's would quadruple the output of one, and a quad-drive would have 16 times the output of a single ULS. Why would 2 HC-1s not do much more than a single HC-1 per channel, but the subs seem to multiply in output by the factor of how many are being used?
I assume it has to do with how low frequencies behave differently than higher ones, and I also assume it has something to do with placement.



The difference I think is that ULS has it's own amplifing the power where as the HB1's and HC1's do have an on board power amplifier. If I understand this correctly, more number of HB1 and HC1's connected in parallel may divide the power feed between themselves and hence do not actually add to the increased/doubling of the output. Gurus may correct if I am wrong.

Thiru

[cynan]

more number of HB1 and HC1's connected in parallel may divide the power feed between themselves and hence do not actually add to the increased/doubling of the output

Wiring speakers in parallel decreases the impedance by a factor of 2. So, if you were to wire 2 HB-1s in parallel, the amplifier would see a 4-ohm load (instead of an 8-ohm load - assuming 8 ohms is the nominal impedance of the HB-1s - if only 1 speaker was wired to each channel). Therefor, if you had a well-built amplifier that had no problems driving 4-ohm loads (like the Emotiva XPA seires) then total power output would be almost doubled (yet the amount of power going to each speaker would be effectively the same). Conversely, wiring speakers in series to a single amplifier channel doubles the impedance.

However, I was not under the impression that the OP was referring to wiring multiple speakers to the same amplifier channel. I thought he was talking about adding a duplicate/split preamp signal to an auxillarly power amplifier and then hooking up the additional front speakers to this extra power amp.

[shadyJ]

I only intend to wire the speakers at one per channel. I think I will stick with just 2 HC-1's for the time being. Some other speakers I would like to try are the Emotiva ERT 8.3, and, when I get rich, the Seaton Catalysts. Those speakers look mean as hell! But until I hit the jackpot, I will stick with HSU speakers. These are plenty badass for me.

By the way, thanks for the replies, all this information is very helpful. I'll probably have more questions in the future, so don't think you're rid of me yet!