Hsu evaluating the XBL2 design from adire? where is the VTF1???

[gchon]

any new Hsu subs in the works? I overheard that Hsu may be evaluating the XBL2 technology from adire? any comments? I would love to see Hsu improve on their current designs so he can compete with the new svs and upcoming onix subs!!

I have always and still think the VFT1 NEEDS to be produced!! What are you waiting for?? Technology has gotten real cheap since it was last talked about. 1000-1500W digital sub amps are really cheap now, get the design of the XBL2 from adire, put it in a VERY small box, add some EQ or a Linkwitz Transformer to make it flat to 20hz, produce in a couple of nice MLS gloss wood finishes and BINGO- Hsu has entered a new segement of the very competitive subwoofer market!

Just some food for thought.....Why do you think SVS sells more box subs then their tube subs even if the tube subs do perform better? I understand Dr Hsu is a reserved person, but he really needs some help in the marketing department. Look at the strong growth of both SVS and Onix. They are eating the lunch that Dr Hsu has made!

[octalon7]

Post the growth figures, I'd love to see em.

[cschang]

I would like to see the growth figures as well.

What makes you think that the Hsu subs are not competitive or better now? Have you done any comparisons?

[gchon]

I would like to see the growth figures as well.

What makes you think that the Hsu subs are not competitive or better now? Have you done any comparisons?

Ok, I guess I mistyped. When I said compete, what I meant was to perform head and shoulders above the rest. I do not expect Hsu to be the cheapest, since his brand should account for something. But what I would like to see is Hsu produce products that are in every way- specs, actual listening tests, etc. go above and beyond that of the "newer" internet companies.

I remember a time when the 1220 was head and shoulders above everything- no one near it's price range could touch it. Hsu may have upgraded the driver and a few other things on the 1220, but I dont see any marketing, tests or promotion to let me think otherwise.

The subwoofer I didnt want to mention was Edward J M's opinion on the PB10-ISD. No I have not compared the PB10-ISD to the STF-2 or VFT2. But like most on the HTF, we are anixously awaiting his review.

The Hsu subs I have heard- the original 1220 powered by a bridged citation 7.1 amp, original VTF2 and STF3 (on loan from compusa). The only SVS subs I have heard were the PB2+ and CS tube sub. While none of these subs were double blind tested against each other, they were all placed in the same location in the same room. I will leave my opinions on these subs for myself. To understand my listening preferences, all I can say is that I have a genesis 928 sub in my room and nothing has yet removed it from it's place.

After thinking about it last night, I think Hsu needs either to hire a true marketing person who understands the internet, or fire the one he currently has.

In terms of growth, I think you can clearly see from web site statistics how an internet company is growing. There are a couple of very expensive tools and marketing companies that provide this data. How can a person place a sale from an internet company? They have to go to the website. Yes they can call the 800 number, but they have to go to the website to get it. Their numbers show me that av123 has about 7 times more traffic than Hsu. Can I then conclude that av123 has 7 times more business? Definately not. They have a VERY active forum which you all know. That is really driving traffic to the site on a daily basis. But if you then look at page views by shopping cart page, things get interesting. Now the only thing I cant see is the final confirmation page, but numbers are numbers. The average drop off from shopper to buyer on the internet is a given. while it may be different for each site, there is an average. If I plug in that average, then I can see that av123 is doing much better than hsu- about 5 times. Now this isnt fair since av123 carries a full range of speakers while Hsu really only does subs.

Now for the interesting things. When I compare SVS to Hsu and I dont think SVS has a forum even though HSU does (but it isnt too popular or active so I wont even count that). I would interpret that SVS does at LEAST double the sales that HSU does.

Do these numbers tell me the margin per speaker or even better net income- NO! Let me repeat myself- NO. THe only thing I can interpret is that SVS sells at least double the number of subwoofers that Hsu does. Is SVS better than Hsu, not in my book. But if everyone is voting with their pocket book, then unfortunately, that does look like the case.

This goes back to my statement, Dr. HSU hire yourself a TRUE proven internet marketing person. Yes it will cost you $100-150K a year for this person- probably more than everyone on your payroll besides yourself. But I'd bet if this person is good, he/she will more than make up for it in sales. Rule of thumb is that this person needs to at least make 10X his salary in sales in the first year.

[Newbie 13]

It woudn't take a $100-150K internet marketing person. All it would take is answering people's questions and showing the same interest in CS that Tom and Ron do as well as MLS at AV123 on the boards. If you go to some of the other forums beside AVS and HTF Hsu has a large following and is still considered a leader for those emphisizing music and speaker integration over deep and loud.

Also, look at how many more magazine reviews have been done on Hsu than SVS for where/how Hsu's customer base is being built.

Many, including myself, refuse to participate on subwoofer threads because they almost always descend into pissing contests. The amount of posts you see isn't necessarily indicative of sales.

Tom V. after years of saying bass is bass has in the past few weeks said that Fr, distortion, port noise, etc. do give subs a sound of their own. So listen to subs like you do speakers and decide which sound you prefer.

[gchon]

The amount of posts you see isn't necessarily indicative of sales.

Newbie- did you read my statement?? I know it was kind of longwinded :) I did not say that the number of posts indicate sales. What I said was that any internet marketing person undestands click through rates and conversions. YES there is an industry standard for CTR and conversions. So if you use average numbers and run a few regressions with the set data, you can ALWAYS get a rough estimate of sales for internet companies by looking at the visits to the initial shopping cart page. The rest of the stuff after the inital page is usually encrypted, so there is no data available.

While each company, individually, has different conversion rates which can be attributed to many factors such as layout, number of pages to checkout page, etc. there are industry averages so with some regression analysis you can usually get a standard deviation or two away from actual numbers. Does it tell me how many subwoofers were purchased in one order- NO. All I can tell is that something was purchased. Taken a step further, for all I know, shoppers could just be purchasing Hsu keychains and not subs. All I can extrapolate is the number of orders for a given website. For someone to REALLY understand this stuff- slice, dice and interpret this data and make recommendations- YES it does cost at least $150K. I know, my company uses a few of them and are constantly hiring such people.

[Newbie 13]

I'm talking about the forums and you're talking about the companies' websites for ordering. I get it. I agree that the the Hsu website is one of the least informative sites there is.

[gchon]

I agree that the the Hsu website is one of the least informative sites there is.
I have never said that the Hsu site is the least informative. The question was asked of me by a couple of people regarding my growth of Hsu competitor statement. The data just tells me the number of orders for a given website. It would take the new Hsu marketing person to get more detailed info and make recommendations on the site information, layout, architecture, etc.

[tdekany]

After thinking about it last night, I think Hsu needs either to hire a true marketing person who understands the internet, or fire the one he currently has

gchon - I'll try to make this short. BTW, these are only my opinios. So take it as such.

Today is not only my birthday, today is THE happiest day of my life!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

So I am not sure why I am even responding to your post. I don't know you, you don't even have a Hsu sub etc... and you make the above statement. I sure don't know what your intention is although I have an idea.

But let me get back to my point.

Who do you think you are to tell how Dr Hsu should run his business?

Do you ever think that he is not one of the SHARKS? Get a life and think before you write something this stupid.

He has been is the business for over a decade running his company to his liking. Not yours, or mine. Don't you think that if $$$ was the main reason why he designed subs that he would target the upper end buyer? Look what he produces for $399.00!!!! Are you out of your mind?

Not everyone is greedy. He is content I am sure the ways things are going - otherwise he'd make changes. How would you like me to tell you what changes you should make so that you could earn more peso?

You are so disrespectful. What do you care how he runs his own business? You don't even support him!! And what makes you an expert anyway about what he ""needs"" to do?

I hope Sasha deletes this thread since somebody is promoting SVS again.

Go elsewhere to push SVS.

I am very proud to support a human being like Dr Hsu. I truly wish there were more people like him.

END OF MY STORY. :D

[Michael Bain]

Easy there tdekaney! I believe that gchon has good intentions, and is trying to say that Hsu could leapfrog these other competitors with some heavier marketing.

And happy birthday!

[gchon]

END OF MY STORY. :D

Tdekany- thanks for putting that smiley face on the end there, or otherwise I would have taken your post seriously. I do think you made a few points there and I would like to be clear, I would LOVE to see Hsu take back the marketshare that HE, HIMSELF CREATED!

I think many technology companies do not have a clear grasp of the power of marketing. Many with a technology background believe in the falicy- "If we build it, they will come". Word of mouth and organic growth will only get you so far.

as a sidenote, as you can see from my post, I am also from asian decent, so there is some nationalistic or racial bias here as well. :)

[sid]

I think what gchon is saying is informative and at the same time quite interesting. You raised a good point on saying that if Hsu Research will only have someone who knows web marketing, then Hsu subs will be able to get a good part of the market. Can you give me some percentages of what the market is and where Hsu is situated.

[tdekany]

I still don't understand what interest is of gchon how Hsu is doing and what % of market share Hsu has.

If you are really concerned, sell your sub and purchase an Hsu sub.

Even though I have talked with Dr Hsu many times over the years on the phone, also via e mail, I never met him and don't know him.

However, hearing all the info about him from others, both from pro/personal sources he seems to be a very humble human being.

On the other hand, you (gchon) are trying to feed your own ego.

That is the reason why I don't agree with your ""good intention"" as per Michael Bain.

If you want to insult the Dr, call him up - he will actually answer the phone if in the office and tell him what he is doing wrong. :eek: :p :p :p

[gchon]

If you want to insult the Dr, call him up - he will actually answer the phone if in the office and tell him what he is doing wrong. :eek: :p :p :p Message to Sasha or any other modorator, please have Dr Hsu look at this thread. If he is insulted by my comments, PLEASE delete this thread. That was the last thing I wanted to do. If he got my message, then delete it as well, since it was intended to help him. No worries on my side. I look forward to the VTF1!!

[Michael Bain]

The issues presented here seem clear to me. Some other much less experienced brands are stealing many of Hsu's design ideas, and with extremely slick and aggressive marketing (including under the table deals with forum admins and forum members) they are brainwashing the public into thinking that Hsu's own products are second fiddle to their own. The reality is that Hsu products are generally technically superior to the likes of SVS, but without any marketing presence to spread that message, no one will know about it. Sadly, the only reviews on Hsu products on the internet seem to come from the most hard-core SVS fans (some who have received large discounts, insider information, and/or freebies from SVS), and they are able to get away with this because of Hsu's historically weak marketing and presence on the internet.

[octalon7]

Call me crazy, but I heard the accomplishments of HSU long before I even considered going to SVS or some other competitor. Maybe I'm a bit more informed than the typical consumer, but if you frequent the internet and you do even a little bit of research you will learn fairly quickly who the players are. Word of mouth gets HSU the 'marketing' they need, so if you truly want to help them, tell your friends, post on message boards about your success with their products, and have a nice day...

[Rob Babcock]

One thing I agree with is a comment someone made a few posts back- the HSU site really isn't that informative. There could be more info on the subs, with graphs, etc. Or else, that info should be easier to find, assuming it's there and I've just not seen it. The "flagship" TN line especially gets the short shrift.

As far as advertising goes, Hsu does seem to underachieve, but glossy ad campaigns in the audio rags costs a lot of money. And think of some of the ones who do run those ads- would we want Hsu to be like B(l)ose? :rolleyes: One thinks Dr. Hsu could move more subs than he currently does, but does he want to? He may be quite happy doing a good job with the current volume as opposed to doing a mediocre job selling more. History is full of good, innovative companies that lost their way & their market when they tried to expand too much.

Lastly, while Hsu does create new models (as evidenced by their collaberation with Outlaw Audio and the new box subs), it does feel to me like the rest of the world is starting to catch up. At one time Hsu subs were one of the only affordable high performance subs on the market and their tube geometry was unique. Now you've got tube subs by SVS & Adire, as well as improved box subs from other competitors. This isn't all a bad thing- the state of the art has been advanced, and in no small part due to the products of Hsu Research, I might add. So it's a bit like world basketball; if America no longer dominates unquestionably, it's due to our own success. That said, I'd hate to see a company with a history of innovation like Hsu get lapped by the competition. I would like to see an "Uber Hsu" created to swat down some of the guys "nipping at his heels," so to speak.

Hsu Research has long been a leader in affordable True Subs; staying on top is perhaps more work than getting there in the first place.

[Lwang]

The thing is where does Hsu want to project themself as. 5-10 years ago, they were truly high performance subs at a affordable price, but that term affordable applied to the audiophile world where budget audiophiles with $2k of 2ch audio gear could get deep bass w/o doubling or tripling the total cost of their gears. Those receiver guys were perfectly content with their fake bass subs. Nowdays the low end audiophile world has gone up a bit, so if Hsu was to still chase after those guys, Hsu would be making subs with something like the TN1220 as their bottom of the line unit. The other path, which Hsu seem to have taken, was to go after the HT crowd, along with going massively downmarket at the same time. So now, he is competing with J6P brands where word of mouth has to compete with massive advertising and frequent reviews in rags like S&V. Plus at that almost at the bottom of the market level, it is almost mostly about boom, maybe with the slightly higher market being about numbers, numbers and numbers. Gone are the people whom value subjective impressions where the Hsu subs were praised when they were reviewed in the audiophile world. So I guess it comes down to spreading the message to the masses or allowing the enlightented but financially challenged to have a taste of heaven.

[spiffnme]

This has been an interesting thread. I agree that Dr. Hsu can and should run his business however he feels, but at the same time, I can't help but agree that at the very least his website could use a face lift. I know it just got one fairly recently, but that was more of a make-up job. A very nice make-up job, but still not enough. The site could use some major reconstructive surgery. When I come to the site, it just looks "cheap" to me. If you visit the SVS site, it's very well layed out, and has a very professional look. That ALONE can make or break a sale. Most everyone knows that Hsu and SVS are the two big names in low end. If you've got a guy on the fence between the two, just clicking on the two sites will give you the impression that SVS is a professional outfit, and Hsu is just a guy that sells subwoofers.

btw...I'm a happy VTF-2 owner, and recommend Hsu subs to EVERYONE who asks. The guys over at the axiomaudio board are getting tired of hearing it. :)

That actually brings up a second point. When I first bought my VTF-2 Hsu definately seemed to be the subwoofer leader. For price/performance they reigned supreme. But as has been pointed out in this thread, the competition is gaining fast...if not over taking Hsu's throne. Even Axiom seems to be trying to grab that throne with their two latest subwoofer entries.

Does Dr. Hsu care that this is happening? Should he?

[Michael Bain]

I don't think people should underestimate Dr. Hsu's abilities. He has a real passion for audio, and it shows in his products. Hsu does all the research in designing the product, from driver design to amplifier design to enclosure and porting design. This approach eats up much more of his time and money than a system builder approach would, but it's well worth it in the end in my opinion for the superb synergistic qualities of his products. These synergistic qualities are not often seen in other products from manufacturers who simply assemble components designed and built by outside vendors.

[tdekany]

While I don't follow the SVS story so I can't comment on their success, do any of you have sales figures for Hsu Reasearch? How do any of you know who sells more subs?

I would bet that less then 1% of Hsu owners post on this BB. Most just by their subs and enjoy them without trying to satisfy their ego by knowing that it is the best selling sub instead of realizing that Hsu makes the BEST subs.