Outlaw's LFM-1 designed in conjunction with Hsu?

[Lwang]

Is that true? If so, how much involvement was there between thouse outlaws and the Doctor?

Is the Doctor expecting his own demise and cashing out by designing a prouduct that will be cheaper and more powerful than his own offering? ;)

[gchon]

Is it just a VFT-3 clone? more or less performance/output than the vtf-3? If it is the same or more, then I'd bet the outlaws will sell a lot of them since at this level, people are very price sensitive.

[Ddavidson]

It is $600 from what has been mentioned. So it is certainly more towards the middle of the VTF-2/VTF-3 price range. I think the whole key to success here is the price, and the only competitive solution is by having no middle man (retailer).

As soon as a retail situation occurs you get the same old massive mark-ups and the retail price just has to increase to cover the retailers profit demands.

I just really hope Hsu doesn't go the way it looks like it is going to go. It is pretty obvious that the retail margins demanded by dealers will kill Hsu's reputation for being a Bargain Buy of the Century (very quickly). With all the long history on the financial dramas of many a/v companies, its obvious that going direct and giving competitive retail pricing is the only way to go. Going into a retail type pricing senario is a dead end road, especially for the previous great pricing Hsu was famous for.

With the competitive way its going almost no one will want to not be selling direct soon.


Ddavidson

[Sasha_G]

I can't say much about the deal, except that I've heard negotiations were underway.

[Ddavidson]

Outlaws in the News
http://www.outlawaudio.com/news/news_jun03_new.html

NEW PRODUCT NEWS
Sneaking in under the competition's radar, the Outlaws announced a second new product in San Francisco. Perhaps the most frequently asked question we receive that does not deal directly with our own products is "What type of speakers do you recommend for use with Outlaw electronics?" Very shortly we'll be able to have a new answer to that question when it comes to one category of speakers, subwoofers. On view for the first time at the HE Show was Outlaw's first speaker product, our Low Frequency Module, better known now as the LFM-1. Many of you know that the Outlaws have considerable experience in the world of speakers, and we've brought that knowledge to bear on the LFM-1. However, just to make sure that we have all bases (is there a pun there?) covered, we engaged Dr. Po Ser Hsu, world renowned for his subwoofer designs and technology, to work with us on the LFM-1. This is also a totally new, totally Outlaw, totally unique product, based around a 12-inch die cast driver in combination with a 350 watt amplifier and a downward firing, ported cabinet design. The result is a combination that is projected to deliver over 115 SPL from 20 Hz to 100 Hz. The unit weighs in excess of 75 pounds so it is unlikely to move, but we advise you to secure all other fragile objects in your listening room, as the LFM-1 will literally shake the house!

Working with Dr Hsu, we chose a 25 Hz system design. When room gain is taken into account and proper placement of the LFM-1 is made, the unit will be flat to 20 Hz, As with the RR 2150, we're still a bit away from delivery, as the first shipments of the LFM-1 are planned for some time this fall. However, since we know that many of you plan your upgrades in advance, we decided to announce the LFM-1 at this time so that you may consider it for future system use. The price for this remarkable subwoofer will be under $600. In the true Outlaw tradition, this will make the LFM-1 a tremendous value unmatched by anything even close to that price. We'll provide more details on the LFM-1 on the web site in a week or so, along with pictures of the model that was displayed in San Francisco.


That's the official released version.
I guess the question is, will this all mean (as I suspect) that Hsu is either selling out, or that they are going to go into retail and thus higher pricing? (due to the crazy dealer margins)

I really do hope Hsu stays at the lowest level of pricing. I love the fact of buying excellent bargain basement products like Hsu. Dealers are just way out of touch for the average guy like me, unless you like buying total rubbish or paying an arm and two legs for a product. Everyday my direct shopping list increases due to more everyday good being sold online at good pricing. It would seem very wrong if Hsu heads in the opposite direction after getting such a great reputation doing direct. Make the direct issue an even bigger thing by keeping things competitive and advertising regularly in more places.

Ddavidson

[Sasha_G]

DDavidson,

Thanks for sharing the release--I knew they were talking, but I didn't know Outlaw had speced out a product.

I feel a little twinge in my stomach when you question if we are "selling out". Why do you question that just because Dr. Hsu is designing a sub for Outlaw? Outlaw isn't a dealer.

I really do hope Hsu stays at the lowest level of pricing.

Economies of scale and globalization are helping us make things for less when we produce more. Growth helps us adapt quicker and gives us more resources to research new products. In the end, if we can produce a better product that costs less, isn't that enough?

[DavidD]

I agree with Sasha here. I didn't interpret that announcement as a negative to the future price-performance status of Hsu products. I didn't detect a hint of changing the Hsu marketing strategy in the news. I think all of us on this forum are interested in retaining the value (and market viability) of Hsu products. I know I am. After all, I want to be able to buy that VTF-1 in the future!

I'm also very interested in seeing what comes of this new sub. I don't know if the published specs will turn out to be realistic, but it will be interesting, I think.

[Lwang]

A more powerful amp, a cast frame, cheaper price, 115dB @ 20hz and the Doctor's seal of approval. Either Hsu is lowering the lifeboat in anticipation of HMS Hsu going down or Outlaw created this to w/o the Doctor's knowledge that it is going to sink his ship.

It is understandable to put one's expertise into a product that doesn't compete directly with your line, it is another to help roll out something that in every way beat your own product.

Let's just hope that the LFM-1 is more hype than truth.

[Ddavidson]

It is understandable to put one's expertise into a product that doesn't compete directly with your line, it is another to help roll out something that in every way beat your own product.

That is what I do not understand. Why in the world would you compete head on with yourself by helping another manufacturer who just happens to also be a direct market "Only" brand.

Seems like a big change is coming and for us long term Hsu consumers that might mean either the end of the brand or the end of the direct marketing bargains. Any decent designer could do a Velodyne and sell a pretty package at exorbitant prices but thats not what I thought Hsu stood for.


Why do you question that just because Dr. Hsu is designing a sub for Outlaw?

First off, lets be clear that I am a total Hsu fan and an owner of both VTF series models, so its not just mud throwing.


Outlaw isn't a dealer.

Yes they are because they are only a direct marketer like Hsu "used" to be. The question has to be asked why compete head on with your own products unless you have a plan to counteract?

Economies of scale and globalization are helping us make things for less when we produce more. Growth helps us adapt quicker and gives us more resources to research new products.

Of course but as can be seen with Outlaw, Rocket, SVS, AVS123 etc the economies of scale can come without dealers getting 50%+. It seems to me that Hsu could get far more direct market growth than you currently have achieved with much stronger promotion. The B&M retail situation is a death trap and is flooded with overpriced offerings. All that happens is the dealers will force the brand to increase its retail price so they can get their jaw dropping profit margins.

My local retailers all tell me they hate cheap products because they want to double their money at least. All I see is Hsu being forced by dealers to increase the prices so they can get more profit. As the local stores manager said to me "If the product doesn't have enough profit margin we just drop the line". He tells me that with the amount of competing product avaliable we can dictate prices. They are not scared of telling you that they demand big return.

I just do not see their value when I as a consumer can get a 30 day+ trial with a full refund if I am not happy. Not only that but the price of the product is a whole lot less than the dealer would be. Sure economies of scale is an advantage, but it is mostly going to be offset by dealer greed. If Hsu throws the consumer to the lions you might find all that long term respect gained from being an audio bargain might just all head straight down the drain. I will be very sad to see Hsu head this way as it has been an audio bargain.

If Outlaw can sell a 75 pound + downward firing, ported cabinet, with a 12-inch die cast driver, inbuilt 350 watt amplifier all delivering over 115 SPL from 20 Hz to 100 Hz and with Dr Hsu's blessing. Then charge the customer $600 why would Hsu not be able to do the same ? After all Outlaw sells and markets to the same sized audience, so economies of scale are the exact same.

A lot of us have waited a long time for the R&D to be finished on the VTF-1, but it now seems more likely with the Outlaw project turning up, that the VTF-1 might never show up or just turn up under another brand at some future point in time?

I think its a shame that the writing on the wall is appearing. Hsu has been such an audio icon starting with the late Peter Mitchells comments way back in Stereophile. Those comments first got me interested in Hsu so its been a long term following. People laughed at the direct marketing approach but it is obviously the only certain way to beat or at least be competitive with the big boys. Retail is for those consumers with money to waste.

My audio room is the only place that I need to demo a product, so why in the world should I pay a dealers rent?


Ddavidson

[DavidD]

OK, I see what you're saying, but I still don't see any hint that they're abandoning direct marketing. I admit I have wondered about the description of the Outlaw sub as compared its projected price. To some extent, I decided the 20Hz extension might be marketing talk. The release said the "real" extension is 25Hz, and they are depending on room gain to achieve the 20Hz figure. Thus, I don't see it as directly comparable to a VTF-3, with its greater real extension.

[Ddavidson]

OK, I see what you're saying, but I still don't see any hint that they're abandoning direct marketing.

No announcement has been made but it is logical (putting two+two together) that the whole marketing strategy is looking at being changed by Dr Hsu.

Perhaps it is even a buy out? Perhaps Hsu is going into full retail distribution (yuk)? That way the thought would be that Outlaw is not in the retail market where Hsu is heading. But one thing is certain the fundemental way in which Hsu was doing business is about to be re-written. It very obvious because it doesn't make any sense to take your own products head on.

Trouble is I am sure that I do not want to start paying for retailers when I want to only do my demos in my own accoustics. I do not want to pay extra just because a dealer is now slotted into the picture. I guess I am thrifty but thats why I buy Hsu products. Great sound Great price and no dealer hype or pushy sales guys.


More hints on retail in a quote by Sasha:

The Ventriloquist system will be available directly and through a substantial number of dealers.

There was talk by Sasha on various forums that Hsu was going to being going into get more dealers. Even a Cedia booth was talked about. Cedia is like the HT installation show for dealers that attracts megabuck products like Meridian, Faroudja, Runco, AMX, Krell, Mark Levinson, Seleco etc

Those dealers and install guys demand big margins and they get it. Certainly not my idea of an area to head into get bargain basement products. Its Bill Gates territory.


Thus, I don't see it as directly comparable to a VTF-3, with its greater real extension.

At $849 for the VTF-3, vs $600 for the LFM-1, it certainly slam dunks the VTF-3 on price that's for sure. At 350w and a 12-inch die cast driver it will look good on paper compared to the $849 - 250w VTF-3 and even the $500 VTF-2.
I guess the question to be seen is just how good is it?

Knowing Dr Hsu it would have to be decent. I am sure he would not allow them to use his name if it was a POS.

Ddavidson

[DavidD]

I agree with you, Ddavidson, that I don't want to see Hsu change its marketing strategy (not that Dr. Hsu needs my permission to do anything). One of the great things about doing business with Hsu Research has been Dr. Hsu's personal involvement and assistance in getting the most out of his products. I like things the way they are.

However, realistically speaking, Dr. Hsu has to do what he thinks is best for his company. The Ventriloquist appears to have a great opportunity to demolish the large HTIB portion of the market. I'm very interested myself for bedroom use. I think that market segment probably works best with multiple retail outlets, in addition to direct sales. Otherwise, you have to spend lots of money to advertise so that more consumers know about Hsu products.

[DavidD]

Dr. Hsu must be thrilled to get all this great advice from his panel of marketing experts, don't you thinK???? :D

[Lwang]

From what I know, Dr. Hsu also does consulting service on the side, usually engineering related. I guess this would just be one of them that we heard about.

So how much was Dr. Hsu involved in with the design of the Outlaw sub?

[Ddavidson]

Dr. Hsu must be thrilled to get all this great advice from his panel of marketing experts, don't you thinK????

Ha-hahttp://hsuresearch.com/forum/images/icons/icon10.gif

I can just imagine him sttting around thinking, I had better listen and do exactly what this yo-yo says!http://hsuresearch.com/forum/images/icons/icon10.gif

But I digress the whole point is to express ones opinion either right or wrong on a subject that you feel strongly about. I really have been very impressed with Hsu Research subwoofers over many many years. On the other hand the offerings from most other companies have been just heading north on price and south on sound quality. To me it is due mainly to the loss of passion in being involved in making and designing audio products. It has become only about the profit and not the hobby and joy. Thats what attracted me to Dr Hsu and his products. He genuinely loved what he did and went to great extremes to prove you can have awesome sound on a beer budget. This is why he originally wanted no part of retail and wanted the savings to go straight to the customer not to a demo middle man that offered no more than a demo facility.

Unfortunately looking at all the signs even that passion may now be lost to the evils of retail and all that entails. I hate to think its true, but it looks like those days have gone. Funny but it was always worth a good laugh to read about Dr Hsu's latest demo at a show (normally a hotel room) and how the hotel always asked him to put back the lamp cords he loaned to run his demo before he checked out. He always said "here at Hsu we do not believe in paying megabucks to get good audio". Thats what got me hooked and why retail with its mega profit demands should hold no Hsu products IMO.

Sad to see that change, even though it obviously has and will even more so go that way by the looks of things. The Vtf series pricing is a sure sign of that occuring.


Ddavidson

[Sasha_G]

It's truly nice to see people so concerned about us.

Things are changing. But we will remain the company that offers the biggest bang for the buck. Period. In the coming months we will not be selling out, but in the coming months some of our products will built in Asia, like the big boys do already. Yes, this is a controversial move, and a few will not like it because it does not create American jobs. It will allow our medium sized California based corporation to:

1) Add more to existing products down the road, giving Americans more than they expect.
2) Create new lower priced products that save Americans money.

You talked about 50%+ margins. We have no plans of letting our dealers receive margins near that amount. 50%+ margins would be bad for consumers and the industry, in my opinion. Look at audio cables, and their 80%+ margins! Dealers push the cables so hard people believe these they improve sound over the cheaper stuff. Thousand dollar cables that cost $10 to make are a disgrace.

Dr. Hsu told me of his plans on making a sub for Outlaw, and that shows he is very confident. I believe personally it's just a matter of time before people start copying Hsu Research. Instead of licensing out technology, offering a "Hsu Certification", or imagining that nobody will find out how good the designs are, Dr. Hsu's vision is to design the subwoofer himself and keep more control over the quality. This has the side effect of creating business relationships that could be good for everyone down the road, including consumers. Sure, the Outlaw sub will be a high output 25 Hz product that could be successful. If it is successful, we could make subs with a similar design philosophy ;). I don't think we will carry it or come out with a similar product in the near future, because in the end it will be their product.

We intend to offer an even bigger bang for the buck down the road--we won't be taking away. I know that a few bad products can ruin the Hsu reputation, and Dr. Hsu and I are not going to let that happen.

[DavidD]

That is great to hear, Sasha. Thanks for the update.

[gchon]

for what it is worth and as a consultant (usually more than I am personally willing to pay, but happy that my clients dont think so :) )

it just looks like outlaw and av123 may have better marketing minds and hsu is HOPEFULLY now catching up. Look at svs, they once were soley a sonotube company and now have come out with box subs and supposedly the boxes outsell the cynlinder ones.

I think hsu has finally figured out that cosmetics play an important role in sales whether we like it or not. hsu now has the rosewood finish, but since av123 is coming out with their subs as well, maybe too little to late to get any of the rocket market?- lets hope not.

In terms of overseas assembly, i certainly agree that they need to keep manu costs down by making things outside the US, but they need to keep QC up or else lose ALL of the goodwill the good dr has created.

If they are successful with their QC, then their costs will be substaintially lower which means more money for them- GOOD. with all that extra $$$ lying around, maybe they can finally spend it on some R&D for the VTF-1 AND make it LOOK pleasing to the eye for the WAF. Do you think the rockets would have sold so well if they came in the same cosmetics as the hsu subs?

come on guys- a gloss black and light wood finish JUST like the ref1s- it is a no brainer. You would sell so many more subs if they looked nice. even velodyne knows that with their hgs series created many moons ago. why do you think M&k is finally going back to wood finishes?

as for the outlaw sub, if it compares to the VTF3 then i'd bet you anything that sales of the vtf-3 will drop like a rock. i hope someone at your firm understands marketing and has done a sound job at customer segmenation. From the limited stuff I see, that doesnt seem to be the case.

I really hope you guys figure this out sooner than later. I was so forward in looking to purchase the vtf-3, but my purchase is now set for either the svs pb2 or av123 ref sub/genesis 928 clone UNLESS you guys have something that LOOKS and performs better.

hope my comments are taking in stride and not in vain. I always root for the little guy!!

[cschang]

Originally posted by gchon
I really hope you guys figure this out sooner than later. I was so forward in looking to purchase the vtf-3, but my purchase is now set for either the svs pb2 or av123 ref sub/genesis 928 clone UNLESS you guys have something that LOOKS and performs better.

Have you heard all these subs in one room? How do you know they perform better? And you think the SVS PB2 looks better than the VTF-3??

[gchon]

I have owned the genesis 928. I have heard the vtf3, vtf2 and returned the pb1. I was able to do a side by side comparison between the vtf3 and pb1. I liked the vtf3 better in terms of output and overall response. The vtf3 did have port noise at high levels though. Before the pb2 came out, I would say this sub is the best bang for the buck.

IMHO, the genesis 928 is the best sub I have heard in terms of having 1 sub for 2 channel and HT. There are other subs that go lower and have more output for HT AND there are other subs that are more musical and have a faster response for 2 channel, but if your wife will only allow one (which mine does) then this sub is for you. I no longer have the sub because the amp fried on my unit about 1 year ago and I sold the sub for parts on ebay.

I was told that the new ref sub is similar to the 928.

I have never said the pb2 looks good. I have even yet to hear the pb2. Just that it was on my short list. Reason?- price and hopefully performance. I am assuming that since there are 2 12", then hopefully there should be at least 6 db more in output than the pb1 if everything else is kept constant. that would put it over the top vs the vtf3 and probably why it is priced that way. I wont know until I hear it though.

[cschang]

Originally posted by gchon
I have owned the genesis 928. I have heard the vtf3, vtf2 and returned the pb1. I was able to do a side by side comparison between the vtf3 and pb1. I liked the vtf3 better in terms of output and overall response. The vtf3 did have port noise at high levels though. Before the pb2 came out, I would say this sub is the best bang for the buck.

IMHO, the genesis 928 is the best sub I have heard in terms of having 1 sub for 2 channel and HT. There are other subs that go lower and have more output for HT AND there are other subs that are more musical and have a faster response for 2 channel, but if your wife will only allow one (which mine does) then this sub is for you. I no longer have the sub because the amp fried on my unit about 1 year ago and I sold the sub for parts on ebay.

I was told that the new ref sub is similar to the 928.

I have never said the pb2 looks good. I have even yet to hear the pb2. Just that it was on my short list. Reason?- price and hopefully performance. I am assuming that since there are 2 12", then hopefully there should be at least 6 db more in output than the pb1 if everything else is kept constant. that would put it over the top vs the vtf3 and probably why it is priced that way. I wont know until I hear it though.

OK....understood. Doesn't the PB2 cost significantly more than the VTF-3?

[gchon]

everyone can see what the pricing is from the other sites, after thinking about it I would rather not advertise other subs on this forum. Maybe I should even edit my posts? If there is a moderator, feel free to do so, I will NOT be offended.

My wife approved budget is around $1K. I'd bet that a couple of tube subs from Hsu would do the trick NO doubt, but again the waf is kind of high.

maybe a vtf-212 should be in the works to completely beat everything else out there? some form of isobaric/dipole/bipole/push pull duel 12" box version should be made to take all comers at the $1000-1500 price range? Something that has a nice finish and is kept as small as possible. if anyone can do it, Im sure Hsu can. that would be on my wish list and I would put a paid deposit down today:D

[cschang]

Well heck....with that budget....VTF-3R......WAF issue solved!

[Ddavidson]

it just looks like outlaw and av123 may have better marketing minds and hsu is HOPEFULLY now catching up. Look at svs, they once were soley a sonotube company and now have come out with box subs and supposedly the boxes outsell the cynlinder ones.

I think that has been pretty much my key findings as well. It seems to me like Hsu simply did not market its products as well as these other companies, which are late starter "marketing madmen".

According to what I heard from some opposing companies (who fully respect Hsu), they believe Hsu could have tripled its volume in direct sales if they had the right stratergy and marketing in place when they launched the Vtf-2.

Admitedly though, these guys all seemed pretty happy that Hsu had goofed on their marketing, as it has allowed them to actually get in the direct marketing door. These companies where genuinely in awe of Hsu but admitted they would not have got in the door so easily without the marketing slip ups that Hsu made. Hsu was the driving force behind many of these CEO's wanting to get into the growth industry of direct marketing. The retail sector was seen as loosing ground due to the greed of margins. After all every dollar saving counts and consumers know they can save serious dollars if they buy direct over retail.

Now that Hsu is allowing somewhat higher pricing for retailers margins, many of these new companies seem to think they can gain a large part of the Hsu direct market. This is why I am very sad to see Hsu not rightfully claim the direct market share that could have been theirs. Reputation is great but you still must consistantly put the hard word out in all directions. You can not afford to sit on your reputation alone.

Seriously there just is absolutely no need to go into high markup retail when the direct market could be returning much more to the company. Hsu certainly could have made mince meat out of the market, had they got the VTF-1 and VTF-3 out quickly after the VTF-2.

As Svs is now finding, the sonotube subs are great subs, but they are totally pit bull ugly and the WAF is zero. You simply can not ask most wifes to put up with a covered toilet roll holder. (no matter how good it sounds) Its fine for a DIY guy but not the average Joe.

I know that a few bad products can ruin the Hsu reputation, and Dr. Hsu and I are not going to let that happen.

You are not wrong, as a bad product or consistant bad QC could destroy the reputation quickly. I already think QC on the VTF amps needs double checking as a few people on various forums are already being reported as glitchy. (no I am not talking about Mr repetitive poster) Most of the drama is in the silly auto turn on curcuit. You desperately need a defeat switch and double checking that curcuit stays on as advertised.

Lets make it very very clear the Hsu design is fantastic. All you guys need is some upper end flagships and of course making sure you have very low direct prices. The competition will fade (or at least find it hard to compete). You have to look at the lineup because you have too many gaps and need to cover the whole range from flagship to basic.

I await the VTF-1 at a price that will make the opposition weap.


Ddavidson

[Lwang]

Maybe Hsu's too involved in every aspect of the design and manufacturing process parts that are not critcal to the final product? I don't know what it is, but new products are slow to the coming.

It seems some of the other mfg out there grabs an existing driver, plug it in some formula to get the box/vent size right, do some modeling on the cabinet mfg feasability/sound characteristics, build sample models and ship the blueprint for production. They let the design of driver to someone else and shop around for the biggest watt per the dollar amp.

[Sasha_G]

One thing about the Outlaw that should be corrected is that it is NOT a 20 Hz design, it is a 25 Hz design with single tuning (no variable tuning).

For those that want deeper bass, I have permission to reveal some information about our largest single tuning sub due about the same time as the Outlaw. Here are some specs:

-12 inch woofer
-22 Hz extension
-Single Tuning
-Output at least equal to the Outlaw's
-around $550 in price

[cschang]

If it is up to Hsu Research's cost/performance ratio, then I think it is a winner!

[Lwang]

Sasha,

Does this mean Hsu's line of small/large sub, with the large's boost @ 17hz and small's boost @ 25hz, will not be continued anymore?

Would this still be based on Hsu's 6th order design? Is it based on the TN & VTF-3's 12" driver?

[jeffsui]

Manufacturing in Asia. I think this is a BAD idea.

----

My story of how I ended up wiht a vtf-2. Shortly after graduating college and finding that working at a job = lots of extra cash I deceided it was time to upgrade my computer. At the time I was playing lots of video games and wanted to get the best computer speakers out there -> which happened to be the Klipsh Promedia 5.1's ... about 399$ I think.

They sounded great and I was a very happy camper. Then one day fzzzzt they died. I was pissed, but klipsh had a great return policy and i got a new pair. Smart me, however, I kept the box the replacement sub came in and I stuck it in the attic, things were working great for a few more months, then fzzzt ... no sound.

Simply put this happened again -> and each time the returns were covered, but sometime about 1.5 years after I had orgionally bought the speakers fzzzt they died again. The defect it turns out was caused by Klipsh manufacturing the speakers in asia where the quality control was not enforrced and when turning them on sometimes a transistor or capacitor or something would blow.

I was lucky, however, because Klipsh offered me a full refund even though my speakers were out of warranty (Apparently the problem was so widespread they extended the warranty on older speakers).

This lead me on a 3 month search to find the perfect replacement. I found forums, and websites, and read up on all the HT fourms I could find. It seemed like HSU and SVS were the big boys but after reading a post on here that basically explained how HSU wasn't supporting rampant fanboyism and would rather stand on their reputation I deceided to go with a HSU VTF-2 and its been wonderful.

I"m a huge fan of this company, and I share the worries of those on this forum. Cheaper asian products can be a good thing, but my personal experiences says they are of a horrible quality.

[gchon]

I think Ddavidson said it very well in his last post-

HIRE someone who clearly KNOWS how to market your products!! I know many great engineers who have great ideas and can solve anything technologically, but truly dont have a clue when it comes to marketing- how can they, their brains are wired totally differently. Not sure if that is the case here since I have never talked to anyone from that company. Or maybe as lhwang put it, the good Dr is just too involved with every aspect of the company- I know that is the case with mine!

Just be forewarned that you will never see the full value or potential of your reputation without good marketing in a consumer driven business! Even if the vtf1 was built 2 years ago like it should have been, there is no way people would have really known about it until you market it.

maybe the good Dr is content on his current position. If that is so, fine. If he doesnt want to watch others eat the lunch that he himself had created, then he needs some "hype" like the rockets have.

If I were in your shoes, I would finish the vtf1 in a smaller enclosure, improve the vtf2 and then add a vtf4. Then have them in a few colors (black, light wood, dark wood) a max of 12 skus. But before all of this have a clear and concise marketing strategy. Please dont fall into the fallacy "if we build it they will come" because that will only get you so far!

good luck!

[Sasha_G]

Originally posted by Lwang
Sasha,

Does this mean Hsu's line of small/large sub, with the large's boost @ 17hz and small's boost @ 25hz, will not be continued anymore?

Would this still be based on Hsu's 6th order design? Is it based on the TN & VTF-3's 12" driver?

The difference between the existing subs and the new ones are the new lower cost ones will not have variable tuning.

All the Hsu box subs will be 6th order vented (NOT bandpass), like the existing VTF line.

[Ddavidson]

Hsu Research SFT Series







Ddavidson

[Ddavidson]

I don't know what it is, but new products are slow to the coming.


I love the fact that Hsu has always had very long model life Mainly because it is very good for us owners when we are re-selling. IMO it is not that Hsu needs dozens of models regardless of how some people think. I always feel that it only confuses people if you offer too many models that are too close together. I see too many models on offer (like some others are offering) as anti customer friendly. Even worse is making models obsolete every 5 min for marketing reasons. You see this marketing mentality in many brands (e.g. a small cosmetic/spec change to an existing sub can mean a whole new model suddenly appears). I really think all that happens is that the existing owners feel somehow cheated. Of course the marketing guys can whip up a frenzy and convince previous owners of the need to upgrade.

Hsu do however desperately need to get an equal range of subs across the spectrum. The glaring lack of a HGS18 type flagship is very noticable, even though the VTF-3R is obviously not a bad start for those seeking looks in a middle of the range offering. Dr Hsu needs that flagship model to hang his "hat on" so he can say to consumers (and the subwoofer industry) "this is how you build a great top line sub for a bargain basement price".

Its obvious that the Tn series is a great sounding poduct, but its as ugly as sin (even though loved by DIY types) and not what the market wants. They want box subwoofers as its easier to fit into the decor. The SFT series will cover the bottom of the range but where is VTF-1 type sub with big power, extremely low distortion and high output?

Ddavidson