HSU to release their STF series of subwoofer

[Ddavidson]

HSU is just about to release their STF (Single Tuning Frequency) series of subwoofer that are value-oriented (boom for the buck) subwoofers. An 8-inch subwoofer with four small upper frequencies units will/retail at $499. Built-in 150-watt amplifier for the subwoofer is also included.

http://www.enjoythemusic.com/hifi2003/thursday/page2.htm



Here are some specs:

-12 inch woofer
-22 Hz extension
-Single Tuning
-Output at least equal to the Outlaw's
-around $550 in price

__________________
Sasha Goodman


Ddavidson

[Sasha_G]

It should be an eight inch subwoofer with 5 channels, for 5.1 surround sound for $499.

[Ddavidson]

Any more info, models, features, release dates etc for the STF series subwoofers?
You obviously are going to have a 8", 10" and 12".

I take it so far that out of the new offshore built subwoofers we may see:

STF Series

STF-1
8" - 32Hz - $330 - (pic below)

STF-2
10" - 25Hz - $440

STF-3
12" - 22Hz - $610

STF Series Dimensions:
Height/Width/Depth

STF-1
19" x 10" x 15.63"

STF-2
19" x 14" x 17.63"

STF-3
22" x 15" x 22.63"

VTF Series

VTF-2
10" - 25Hz - $499

VTF-3
12" - 18Hz - $849

VTF-3R
12" - 18Hz - $1150

VTF Series Dimensions:
Height/Width/Depth

VTF-2
16" x 16" x 19.5"

VTF-3
20" x 15" x 22"

VTF-3R
22" x 15" x 22"


Ddavidson

[Lwang]

There is so much talk of the STF and their BASHed amps, but no specification on them. What are their power capabilities? 100/200/300w?

Also, would a STF-10 outperform a VTF-2? It wouldn't be worth being $60 cheaper if it doesn't outperform the VTF-2, especially if one could get those upside down VTF-2's for $399 shipped.

[Sasha_G]

The b-stock VTF-2s are a very a good bargain, but they don't be down side up ;)

All the information about the STFs that we are currently giving out can be found here:

http://hsuresearch.com/forum/announcement.php?forumid=2

[Ddavidson]

If the STF-2 ($440) can keep up with the VTF-2 ($499), and the STF-3 ($610) can get close to the VTF-3 ($849). Then what future is there for the VTF series? It sure looks like very little if performance is typical Hsu Research.

Most people use the VTF series in deep bass mode. I do not swap out of deep bass mode on both my VTF-2 and VTF-3, and I seriously doubt many owners swap modes. Perhaps the VTF series might survive the introduction of the STF series if you had that VTF-1 arrive and added various finishes across the VTF board. Offshore manufacturing can certainly cut prices. I think you will kill off a whole lot of VTF sales if you do not add clear distinction to them over the obvious comparision to your STF series.

I am probably left of field here, but I think it is a little crazy to produce the STF series. I would have gone and developed some of the very obvious, and very missing upper end models first, as well as adding an 8" (VTF-8) for the low end (and for use in the starter Ventriloquist 5 systems).

You have to lock in the fact that your models all work together and that you are not obsoleting product every 5 mins. Developing additional VTF series that add to the range along with subtle and dramatic improvements is the key. (fit/finish/options)

You could easy get excellent cost cuts to the VTF by going offshore which could have got the basic VTF-2 down to about $400 retail (with luxury finishes added on top of the basic units $400 price tag).

Looking at the Hsu range, only a cheapo 8" was really missing on the low end of Hsu, and that unit should have been a VTF-8 (8"). I am also pretty sure that the VTF-3 ($849) could get produced for a whole lot less offshore.



Ddavidson

[Sasha_G]

Originally posted by Ddavidson

I am probably left of field here, but I think it is a little crazy to produce the SFT series. I would have gone and developed some of the very obvious, and very missing upper end models first, as well as adding an 8" (VTF-8) for the low end (and for use in the starter Ventriloquist 5 systems).
Ddavidson

Ddavidson,

Rest assured, the VTF series is not going anywhere. We have a some things planned we can't publicly talk about yet, and we will need people to get the word out once they come out.

Dr. Hsu talked about the VTF-1 a while ago before he had a prototype for the public. It turned out that there were some issues beyond the amp regarding the effective lifespan of such a sub, so it was put in hibernation. We are trying to avoid such similar "premature disclosure" this time for our other products. It's better to announce things for us as they become much closer to final production.

[DavidD]

I'm glad to hear Hsu has some great ideas in the pipeline. but part of me wishes you hadn't said that, Sasha. Here I am, considering an upgrade, and now I have to deal with the unknown. Life is so hard....

[Ddavidson]

Dr. Hsu talked about the VTF-1 a while ago before he had a prototype for the public. It turned out that there were some issues beyond the amp regarding the effective lifespan of such a sub, so it was put in hibernation.

Thanks Sasha.
I guess I am wanting an upgrade for my VTF-3 pretty bad, and if it is not already obvious enough, I would prefer it to be a Hsu Subwoofer.

Yet it sure seems like Hsu has left myself and other VTF-3 owners under the understanding that we have the best subwoofer that Hsu will produce (no the 1220/500w is not a big enough jump, and being basically a covered toilet roll is totally unacceptable to most of those who have a wife). A cube sub is where the market is and what it accepts as buyable. As great as my VTF-3 is, I was sort of hoping that we are far from the stage that the VTF-3 was crowned as the flagship Hsu subwoofer.

It really matters not if it's the VTF-1. Some of your current VTF-3 owners like myself are seeking the next step, and we desperately need a reference flagship sub to upgrade to. I did not want it to be an expensive Velodyne, Revel or Aerial and I am not a fan of the mass hype used by the dynamic Svs duo (T&R). Its that hyperbole attitude which totally keeps me from ever buying an Svs although I would aim for the PB2+ if I did like the way the company operates.

Help please let it be a Hsu Research model. Please say you are not just chasing Wal-Mart customers. Leave that market to the Japanese and mass manufacturers who do not give a rats what they produce and sell. Better performance and SQ should not be a dirty word around Hsu. Thats what got Hsu going not just the cheap prices. The word Flagship and selling off that flagship should become a Hsu priority.



Ddavidson

[Lwang]

I guess I am wanting an upgrade for my VTF-3 pretty bad, and if it is not already obvious enough, I would prefer it to be a Hsu Subwoofer.

Yet it sure seems like Hsu has left myself and other VTF-3 owners under the understanding that we have the best subwoofer that Hsu will produce (no the 1220/500w is not a big enough jump, and being basically a covered toilet roll is totally unacceptable to most of those who have a wife). A cube sub is where the market is and what it accepts as buyable. As great as my VTF-3 is, I was sort of hoping that we are far from the stage that the VTF-3 was crowned as the flagship Hsu subwoofer.


The 1220/500w does not just provide a mere 3dB increase of bass compared to the VTF-3. It's deep bass is much more capable, along with a lower end extension. Dual 1220 >10dB advantage over the VTF-3 w/o much of an extra outlay.

Its narrow profile also allows for placement options that are not possible with the bigger=better crowd. Not that it is small, it's volume displacement is just squeezed into another direction.

[Ddavidson]

The 1220/500w does not just provide a mere 3dB increase

Even if I was actually given 4 x 1220's and 2 x 500w amps for no cost (free), I simply would not be able to get them in the front door as the wife would shoot me on the spot for trying to cause visual pollution inside the house.

I took her to a friends demo of four 1220's run by a big crown amp and a bass optimizer and she said they where the ugliest thing she had ever seen in all 15 odd years of my crazy buying of audio gear.

I will say she used to like the Oak top - Hrsw12va much more than the newer "tip me over if you breath too heavy" 5ft high toilet rolls (1220). The 1220s quite simply remind us of cheap and nasty kit type subwoofers that are just not for people who like things to look normal. We have the ideal acoustic spot where the VTF-3 is now, but we can not fit 4 x VTF-3s in that spot and any other location is not ideal. So we need a more powerful and better sounding sub in that one spot.

I understand a limited few have no restriction on decor and so they can overlook being ugly, but understand that we have limits and those are reached well before allowing the 1220 anywhere within our decor. By the same token I know all too well that some people can not stand the look of either of my VTF series (2 & 3) with their rough black finish. But for us it works well because its a cube shape and doesn't stick out like the 1220 would. 1220/s would look like a fire hydrant/s in our room.

Look all cylinder subs just are of absolutely no interest no matter how good they are. They just look totally out of place for our decor taste. I think you will find that most other people will agree that the market is almost totally with "cubed shape subwoofers" and cylinders are only for those very limited few who do not have any decor restrictions.
(or are single)

VTF or not, lets hope Dr Hsu rolls on and out with a cubed Hsu flagship for those normal decor people.


Ddavidson

[Ddavidson]

Looking at the images of the STF-2 and STF-3 it seems like we have a rear port on the 8"and a side port on the 12". What is the location of the port on the STF-2? Are all of the STF series downfiring?

I have a friend who wanted to put a sub in a custom cabinet, so he ideally wanted front port/front firing. You guys should look at this hidden market as it seems popular. His wife is very bad on the look of even something as pretty as the VTF-3R. She hates clutter and wires and he has to hide all his speakers and sound gear. The house is like hospital clean.

Ddavidson

[tomes]

I think he needs to get a new wife! :D

My wife is definitely not happy about wires, but she has resigned to the idea that I WILL have a large sub (12") and fairly large speakers (6.5" elements all around) :)

The price is another argument, of course ;)

[Ddavidson]

I think he needs to get a new wife! http://www.hsuresearch.com/forum/images/icons/icon10.gif


I think he is thinking of it from another angle. He is thinking a new fancy subwoofer is much cheaper for him than what his wife would get from his divorce settlment. http://www.hsuresearch.com/forum/images/icons/icon10.gifhttp://www.hsuresearch.com/forum/images/icons/icon10.gifhttp://www.hsuresearch.com/forum/images/icons/icon10.gif


Ddavidson

[axiomtweeter]

While I would like to have a more expensive model to go with my Axiom M22ti's, my children's college loans say probably not. I am hopeful about the quality but want to know where does this speaker roll off? Also how powerful is this amp?

[Sasha_G]

The speaker rolls of at 32 Hz. A little research on the internet and you will find this is deeper than most 10 inch, and many 12 inch subwoofers. This should give it a better sound.

The amplifier power will be high considering what is needed. It will be over 125 Watts continuous RMS.

We don't give peak numbers because there is no standard in rating them.

[Lwang]

Is it 125wpc for all the STF subs? Or is it just STF-10?

The way to rate peak power is whichever way that gives the highest number. I've seen specifications where RMS, dynamic and peak power are all given, whatever that means.

[haionlife]

I don't mean to brag, but my wife BOUGHT me my TNs at the SF show!!! I also have an advantage that I have floor standing mains that just about shadow the TN1220s, so they're not really visible in my installation.

DD - I do agree, that from a decor point of view, most of clients would laugh me out of their homes if I even suggested they put 1 or 2 TNs in their rooms... But for those of us who can do it, its quite a coup! The VTFs are good, but their articulation just can't compete with the TNs. So, from an audiophile's point of view, I would say they represent a good upgrade from the VTF3...however a cubed sub to match and exceed the TNs would be nice to have available for the decor challenged folks out there ;)

As the good Dr. said, "The STFs are the same as the VTFs, except the VTFs give you an option that most people don't take advantage of anyway. We're just making it an easier choice for them and giving them the same sub but cheaper." I like the idea, and as always - better sound cheaper is always appealing!

[Ddavidson]

I would say they represent a good upgrade from the VTF3...however a cubed sub to match and exceed the TNs would be nice to have available for the decor challenged folks out there

You mean like the long lost VTF-1?

http://www.soundstagelive.com/shows/hifi1999/pics_may14/hsu.jpg

Poh Ser Hsu is shown with the new $995 Hsu Research VTF-1 powered subwoofer. The VTF-1 has a single 12" driver with dual passive radiators and 800W amp. According to company literature, the VTF-1 "will not hop around like some other subwoofers" because of the unique driver/radiator arrangement.


Ddavidson

[Chris A H]

I have not seen a reply to the request for the locations of the ports on the STF models?

Anyone know?

[Sasha_G]

All the ports on the STF series are on the back, at the top.

The power switches are also at the top, right below the ports.

The cables and power cords will hang below the ports and switches, neatly hanging out of the way and giving easy access.

AMPS

The ratings are RMS. Peak power doesn't really mean anything, since the peak could be for a billionth of a second or something like that! There is no standard, and sometimes when companies claim wattage, they are claiming "Junior Watts", not real wattage. A good engineer would be able to test the actual wattage without any super expensive equipment--its easier to test than horsepower in a car. Many companies are purposefully vague and just hope nobody will catch them with their tiny actual wattage.


In addition the the RMS, our BASH amps will have a high real world peak power. We are not providing any measurements at this time, but the general idea is that bass peaks will have the reserve needed.

[Ddavidson]

All the ports on the STF series are on the back, at the top.


So this is not the STF-3?
http://www.hsuresearch.com/forum/attachment.php?s=&postid=672

From what Dr Hsu has said the new STF-3 should be pretty line ball with the VTF-3 in deep bass mode which is an impressive achievment for $610.


Ddavidson

[Sasha_G]

Ddavidson,

Imagine a Rosewood VTF-3R, but black. The STF-12 will be permanently set in max. output mode for 22 Hz bass. The other units will be permanently set in max. extension mode, like you thought.


Pricing is jumping back and forth, but the factory direct price will not exceed $610. Dealer prices are looking to be higher, but the factory direct price will always be the lowest price available. Many dealers are willing to have the higher price since most of the home audio sales occur locally, not direct. In fact, I bet most people who are not on the internet or who don't read Sterephile have never heard of HSU. But the factory direct price will always be the lowest.

[Lwang]

Can you have both a factory directy price and price through the dealer? Are you going to not reveal the fact that there are two different prices in your rag ads? Will the reviews of these products explicitly be prohibited from revealing that there is a lower price on the internet? If neither case are possible, you would be able to sell them only to walk in consumers that doesn't know anything about Hsu subs.

[Ddavidson]

Imagine a Rosewood VTF-3R, but black.

That is how I imagined it. The impressive thing is that the STF-3 will be $240 less than regular Vtf-3 and $540 less than the VTF-3R, and yet still offer the same performance to 20Hz.


Dealer prices are looking to be higher, but the factory direct price will always be the lowest price available.

This is what I could not work out because we all know that dealers insist and love enormous margins on products. I just can not imagine you would be manufacturing with enough profit to keep them happy, let alone cover your required profit.

Having two prices will never work because after all is said and done, the dealers reaction will be to just sell off of Hsu's performance reputation. Basically they will put the customer onto a brand they can double their money on. IMO the whole dealer issue is headed for a disastrous lesson in what "not to do".

Looking at audio manufacturing history it is clear that "if" you are going into selling retail unfortunately you have to go into a full retail structure. So your retail prices will need to rise to cover the dealer (middleman). Its logical that this would be the only real way that you could get the enormous additional profit needed to pay a dealer. Customers who where not made aware of the cheaper direct price under the two price structure would be screaming obscenities and this would really end up damaging the Hsu name. You simply could not make this work effectively as it would have far too many negatives and the eventual backlash would be stinging.

Hsu has to either "forget selling direct" or "forget selling retail" because doing both with two price structures will "never ever" work, as has been proven by history.

My vote "as always for Hsu Research" is to forget all about adding middle men and keep it as a "direct market brand". That is the cheapest for us the consumer, because we as consumers simply do not need another retail version of Velodyne.


Ddavidson

[BradJudy]

That STF-12 definitely looks like a winner. Any plans for a trade-in program for existing Hsu owners (VTF-2 in my case)?

[Ddavidson]

That STF-3 * definitely looks like a winner.

You are basically getting a VTF-3 stuck in high output mode for only $610. That is certainly going to crown the STF-3 the popularity winner in the whole Hsu lineup.

I seriously doubt that once the hot and heavy word is out about the STF-3 that it will take very long before you will see it marked as being on back order. It will be super popular at that price / performance combination. Once released it will certainly create a storm on the direct market. You can bet that Hsu competitors will hate the extra good value over the VTF-3.

I wonder how many people are already thinking of B-stock STF-3's for even more value. The fact is that with Hsu being direct, it has allowed me (over the years) some awesome subwoofer buying value. Best of all without putting up with the usual sales droid dribble and hard work in bartering down some of their enormous markup. (a great relief)

* Model number change from STF-12 to STF-3


Ddavidson

[haionlife]

Brad,

Share the love man! Sell your sub to someone who's bassically challenged :D
Then buy the new Hsu.

Let us spread the good word, oh prophets of the lower registers...

[italia]

Originally posted by Ddavidson
You are basically getting a VTF-3 stuck in deep bass mode (the most commonly used mode) for only $610. That is certainly going to crown the STF-12 the popularity winner in the whole Hsu lineup.

Ddavidson

Actually, didn't Sasha state that the STF-12 is going to be permanently set in Max Output mode?

"Imagine a Rosewood VTF-3R, but black. The STF-12 will be permanently set in max. output mode for 22 Hz bass. The other units will be permanently set in max. extension mode, like you thought."

Any thoughts/preferences on one mode over the other? Robert Deutsch preferred the Max Output mode when he reviewed the VTF-3 so maybe this is a good thing.

[BradJudy]

I missed that before. That's unfortunate and odd since I thought the vast majority of customers put the VTFs into max extension mode. Maybe it's a way to maintain VTF-3 sales after the release of the STF-12.

[Ddavidson]

The VTF-3 is flat to 18Hz and the STF-3 is flat to 22Hz. The real fact for most people is that the STF-3 is some $240 cheaper than the std VTF-3, and most normal people will simply not notice the STF-3 is down a dB when playing a rare source that is below its 22Hz setting. Quite simply there is not much source material "besides organ" that is lower than 22Hz. At $610 the STF-3 looks like an absolutely killer performance/value sub.

I am sure once they start shipping we will hear all about them.

Ddavidson

[mendes9]

If the STF-12 is really a VTF-3, then why are the dimensions different?

STF-3
22" x 15" x 22.63"

VTF-3
20" x 15" x 22"

I thought that they would use the same exact materials down to the amp, driver, and building materials but apparently not. The size is different why? Is HSU using a different driver than what's currently in the VTF3? What about this vynl covering? What's that about? The amp, is it the same as the VTF3? This is being marketed as a VTF3 in full output mode, but I'm seeing some other differences.

[diad98]

My guess is SFT series is for advisement competition.
Because no matter how musical a subwoofer is, people like to attack it on the spec such as how loud @spl or how powerful @wattage.
So SFT is willing to sacrifice the size (otherwise it will need a bigger AMP) and flat freq response(max out than max extension) to gain some db for people's comparision.
And the main application for SFT is home theater and VFT is a prefered choice for music.
I think current VFT series using analog AMP and SFT using class-D AMP for higher peak output.

From my observation, most new generation subs use class-D amps(Sony SA-WX700 w/ two 10" driver and 250w class-d for only $199) and many of them provide one-band equalizer(adire audio DT300 $279, av123 rocket UFW-10 500w for $599) for better room response.

If I buy Hsu sub, I need to pay tax because I live in CA. For that reason, I welcome Hsu open retail markets in CA so I can audit it locally and return it without paying freight and I believe Bay area is a big market for Hsu.

[mendes9]

Suddenly, the STF series, doesn't look like such a good deal after all.. Well have to wait and see..

[Ddavidson]

STF-3
22" x 15" x 22.63"

VTF-3R
22" x 15" x 22

I thought that they would use the same exact materials down to the amp, driver, and building materials but apparently not.

Tough crowd. Its 0.63 of an inch different, apparently it uses the same driver but with a new Bash amp that is tuned to 22Hz (single port). Yet it is $610 vs $849 for the VTF-3. I think it looks excellent value for much better than VTF-2 performance and all but the rare lowest notes capability of the VTF-3.

People who really love reproducing the 16Hz organ note should pay $849 and get the VTF-3 or the TN1220HO. But the STF-3 looks like a bargain for most average listeners.

Ddavidson

[mendes9]

"Its 0.63 of an inch different"

Hugh? 20" VS 22"

[DavidD]

It seems premature and unwarranted to attach so much importance to the difference in dimensions. It may be that some new design work went into these products, or perhaps the new amplifier has different dimensions, requiring a slightly different case. If this performs like other Hsu products, I don't think anyone will have much to complain about.

Let's give the product a chance. Tough crowd, indeed.

[Ddavidson]

STF-3
22" x 15" x 22.63"

VTF-3R
22" x 15" x 22

Hugh? 20" VS 22"



The dimensions you used where not for the "R version" which is what Sasha said it was based on being downfiring with cones (feet).

Look at 0.63 you are not talking about mountains, and I bet that most people simply will not be able to know which one is playing if you had both the STF-3 and VTF-3 in a system. People place far too much importance on the sheer numbers game (specmanship).

Most so called forum experts seem to place far less on the areas where we should all have our main buying importance linked .......... "Actual performance and sound quality".

Funny how many people laugh at my 250w VTF-3 until they actually hear it. Why? Because they think 250w and 12" is way too small for an super subwoofer. All the number crunching soon heads north when I play either that VTF-3, or even the VTF-2 in the small room.

Specs mean little in real terms. Its design that counts.

Ddavidson

[mendes9]

STF-3
22" x 15" x 22.63"

VTF-3R
22" x 15" x 22


"Bash amp that is tuned to 22Hz (single port)."
My senior class engineering project, was to design and build an audio amp, please explain this to me? How can you build an amp tuned to 22hz? Do you mean to say the speaker enclosure is tuned to 22hz?

If indeed the dimensions are only .63" off, and not 2" as previously posted incorrectly , then no problem. If the driver is the same, that's good news. As far as the amp, No big issue there, as long as the damping factor, and RMS power is about the same as the VTF3. Performance, and sound quality sound be very similar.

I'm not the one marketing this new sub as essentially a VTF3 except in max output mode. Differences in drivers, amp, box dimensions, and construction material all effect the performance of the sub. The VTF3 has been reviewed, by well respected audiophiles in top publications. Personally, I'm sold on the VTF3, but heck if the STF really is the same as the VTF3, but for $200 less, then I'm sold on the STF. I'm just trying to verify this is the case.

[Lwang]

Originally posted by mendes9

"Bash amp that is tuned to 22Hz (single port)."
My senior class engineering project, was to design and build an audio amp, please explain this to me? How can you build an amp tuned to 22hz? Do you mean to say the speaker enclosure is tuned to 22hz?

Hsu's amplifiers are designed in to work in conjunction with the subwoofer. Their subwoofers are usually overdamped designs, which would cause it to have a higher efficiency at mid bass, and an early rolloff. The amp would have to be a underdamped design so that it would result in a critically damped alignment that has equal efficiency at the tuning freq, but a much higher output capability at mid-bass.

[mendes9]

Another words as I suggested " tuned to 22hz" are marketing words... or smoking mirrors..

LWANG,
If I understand your post, do you mean that Bash designed the amp to have certain damping factors at certain loads for better efficiency? That's an insteresting design.. .. your explanantion sheds some light. But I think you have to agree.. that words suggesting that the amp is "tuned to 22hz" a little far fetcheh.

thanks for the info..

[Lwang]

tuned meaning electronically equalized so as to give the subwoofer a flat response.

[mendes9]

Thanks, that makes sense now. So, they also have some sort of notch filter built in to help give a more flat response.

Sounds like a winner, can't wait to see it..

[Lwang]

It is more of a integrator that maxes out at the port tuning freq, and then a 2nd order that starts at the port tuning freq.

[Ddavidson]

"Bash amp that is tuned to 22Hz (single port)."

I guess in certain places I must remember to always cross my "T's" and dot my " ï's" or else I will find myself explaining simplistic grammer.

Obviously like all Hsu designs the port, enclosure, amplifier, driver and knowing Dr Hsu even the vinyl finish (with special vacume formed rounded edges) is tuned to 22Hz. - Haha

Like the VTF series, the STF subwoofers are 6th order overdamped bass reflex designs using re-eq boost. Quite simply this brings the low bass in line with the higher bass frequencies.

So yes it certainly is a little more than a Bose marketing campaign. Read any of the decent Hsu reviews and it becomes clear that no matter if its the 25Hz rating of the VTF-2, or the 18Hz rating of the VTF-3, that is an accurate rating for the lowest flat response the sub was designed for.

It really get's back to just how gifted the designer is, and in this case you can bet the ranch that Dr Hsu will not release a lemon in the performance stakes. History shows this quite clearly. Looks like a real winner from what small bits of information we have put together, October 1st is not far off now.



Ddavidson