VTF-3 High Output Leaked Info

[armandolopez]

Doing more snooping around on the internet, I found some leaked info on the VTF-3 High Output model, designated VTF-3HO:

The HO series will have smaller footprints but be taller. Sized in-between a box and a tube. The idea is to be end table heighth so they can be used as such. My understanding is that they will have 4" ports and be clean as the Hsu tube subs are to 20Hz.

The other big news is that Dr. Hsu has a patented add on device that they are referring to as a "turbo charger." Apparently, it significantly boosts the SPLs. I didn't get if it adds to the bottom end but I'm guessing it does since if I understood correctly with plugging ports and using the turbo charger the VTF-3HO is capable of 13Hz. It had not arrived when Curtis left for his flight so he did not get to see or hear it. All I can say is:

AMAZING!

<-- shakes head in disbelief

[Matt_Smi]

Yeah I just read this too, if it really is capable of a clean 13Hz that is amazing! I still wonder what the MSRP will be? I am guessing just under $1,000...

[craigsub]

Doing more snooping around on the internet, I found some leaked info on the VTF-3 High Output model, designated VTF-3HO:

All I can say is:

AMAZING!

<-- shakes head in disbelief

For your first two posts here, you sure are shaking things up. This is getting intriguing... :cool:

[Eddie Horton]

If this is true, then I must have one of these immediately. Usable output to 13Hz???? Holy.........

[cschang]

I just got back from CES and seeing the new VTF-3HO and VTF-2HO, and with Dr. Hsu's permission, posting the info that is available at CES:

The VTF-3HO with the new patent pending technology, will be "equivalent to dual TN1220's". It is slightly larger than the current VTF-3MK2.

The VTF-2HO with the same technology will be "close or equal to a single TN1220." It is slightly taller and slightly thinner than the current VTF-2MK2.

I got to hear the VTF-3HO prototype......phenomenally clean!

At the show, the prototypes did not have the new drivers or amps. The "turbochargers" had not arrived yet...they were do in today or tomorrow. So the VTF-3HO prototype I heard only had one of the two patent pending technologies, and was in 20hz tune.

The output to 13hz with the "turbochargers" may not be a "standard" config.

In the demo room, when I left this morning around 11am, Dr. Hsu was "wowing" three cute girls from Finnish audio company....he was using the current VTF-2MK2 behind the sofa. Wish I could have stayed and was smart enough to take a picture!!

[cschang]

side view of the prototype:
http://changpics.smugmug.com/photos/13841396-S.jpg

[cschang]

comparison shots of the VTF3-MK2 and the prototype VTF-3HO:
http://changpics.smugmug.com/photos/13841375-S.jpg
http://changpics.smugmug.com/photos/13841378-S.jpg
http://changpics.smugmug.com/photos/13841381-S.jpg

[cschang]

VTF-2HO prototype and VTF-2MK2:
http://changpics.smugmug.com/photos/13841411-S.jpg

[cschang]

Signage:
http://changpics.smugmug.com/photos/13841416-S.jpg
http://changpics.smugmug.com/photos/13841409-S.jpg

[tdekany]

The output to 13hz with the "turbochargers" may not be a "standard" config.

Hey Curtis - Where did you get the 13Hz? The sign says 18Hz

[cschang]

The 13hz is something that Dr. Hsu threw at me when I ask what the extension would be like if one port on the "turbocharger" were plugged.

[gchon]

so I see that the woofer is side firing. The design dimensions will work AWESOME in my setup. I am one person who doesnt like square cubes because I like to use my subs as end tables, just like the good dr is envisioning for this application!

Now for a potentially dangerous question- is the top of the speaker and the bottom both smooth, so you can simply flip the speaker over to make the woofer fire left or right? (I assume no, because there would/should be holes to attach spikes??)

If there is indeed holes at the bottom of the sub to attach spikes, then is hsu planning on selling left firing and right firing speakers? In my application, I will be using two subs so I want the amp facing the wall, I need the sub that is to the left of my couch firing one direction and the sub that is to the right of my couch firing in the opposite direction. I do need speaker spikes.

Either way, I hope the marketing guys at hsu is reading this post- run a special for 2 subs and I will purchase your first pair in maple. I want serial number 001 and 002! I will even let people come over to listen if interested.

Now the only thing missing is an auto calibration EQ for the subs. Hopefully the good doctor is working on that as I type this. I need major EQ work because I have HUGE WAF and optimal sub placement isnt an option.

[Newbie 13]

Did Dr Hsu say what to VTF-2HO goes down to with plugged port and turbocharger?

[cschang]

If you plug the single port on the VTF-2HO, it becomes sealed....the turbocharger is essentiall port of the port.

The interesting thing is that Dr. Hsu is thinking about allowing folks to run the VTF-2HO as a sealed sub...with the proper EQing.

[BradJudy]

Curtis,

How did the maple finish look? Is it real wood or vinyl? Did he say if they would look like the ones at the show (maple top/bottom) or the ones on the website (black top/bottom)?

[cschang]

Brad....it is vinyl....and it did look pretty good. Dr. Hsu did not say if the production models would look the same.

Interesting though, we did talk about finishes. Dr. Hsu said the real wood rosewood model did not sell well, even when prices the same as the black matte finish. When prices equally, the matte black easily outsells the wood finish.

[BradJudy]

I think most people want a sub that visually disappears as much as possible. The original rosewood cabinet was a good idea to market to Rocket owners in the early days, but that's a very focused market segment. Outside of that group, there probably isn't much market for a rosewood sub as it doesn't match as well with decors as many other woods.

Personally, I like the black top/bottom better as the wood top/bottom looks kind of fake to me. Of course I don't have any maple in my home, so I like the matte black more anyway.

Thanks for the info and pics.

[cschang]

that is exactly right Brad....for the the rosewood and new maple finish....Dr. Hsu says the comment usually is "It really looks nice, but it does not match my decor."

[BradJudy]

Of course my ultimate preference is for a real wood cherry or walnut finish, but you usually pay a premium for those. My current favorite for looks might be the ACI Titan in cherry.

[spyboy]

Some things not at all clear. Maybe someone can clarify.

1) What is the Turbocharger? Just something to do with porting? Or something electronic? Is it going to be an extra-cost option? About how much?

2) Will the VTF-3HO have a different driver? How will it differ?

3) Did Curtis get a demo of a prototype that did not have: the new driver?; or the 500 watt amp?; or the turbocharger?

No matter, I, for one can't wait to get my hands on a full blown VTF-3HO.

I always wanted a turbocharger, just without the turbo lag or the need for premium fuel. I think this is the turbocharger for me.

[cschang]

The turbocharger does have to do with porting......not sure if it will be an extra cost option or not.

The VTF HO's will have a different driver, but I do not know how they will differ.

The prototype VTF-3HO I heard, and that were on display, have the current VTF-3MK2 driver and amp. So I got to hear the prototype cabinet, 4" ports, and port technology.

[delling001]

Hi Curtis,

GREAT News on the HSU subs... I have no intention to sidetrack this thread, because I (like everyone else on this forum) am EXTREMELY interested to hear more about the VTF HO details as fast as the info can come in! However, just a quick query if you saw/heard anything new with the VT-12 at CES? If so, you can move this to Ventriloquist thread if you want, so the HO speak can continue as most desire it to...??

Thanks Curtis!

Dave.

[spiffnme]

Any guesses at release dates for this VTF3HO badboys?

[Newbie 13]

From reading on HTF-

1.) The Turbocharger has to do with the ports. See his answer to my question above.

2.) New drivers for the HO series. No info how they will be different.

3.) Curtis just heard the new box and ports without the new driver, turbocharger, or amp.

[spyboy]

A little bird suggested that the release date for the HO is April. I hope that it is sooner but it was a little bird in the loop.

[cschang]

They hope before summer.....but it is dependent on a lot of things.

[spyboy]

Curtis

Do you have a picture of the VTF-3HO in the blond finish? You show a photo of the top of a blond VTF-3HO (with the placard on it). The "full" pics of the VTF-3 are of a black one.

Thanks

[cschang]

just for you......

http://changpics.smugmug.com/photos/13841399-S.jpg

Remember though...the finish product may not look like this.

[spyboy]

Boy oh boy Curtis. You are one responsive fellow. Much thanks.

Artie

[cschang]

All my pics can be found here:
http://changpics.smugmug.com/

[spyboy]

Great Curtis! Thanks so much for the link.

Love the pics! That raw driver, do you know if it is a car driver or perhaps one of the new VTF drivers?

Thanks

[cschang]

that is the car driver

[craigsub]

Curtis ... To quote my kids... WAY cool ! ... Very well done !

[wid]

Curtis ... To quote my kids... WAY cool ! ... Very well done !
Agreed thank you for your time and effort.Can't wait to see the final results

[bikeman]

Don't mean to hijack the thread Curtis but I will briefly. Did Ascend have anything on display?

Thanks,
David

[cschang]

Don't mean to hijack the thread Curtis but I will briefly. Did Ascend have anything on display?

Thanks,
David

Nope....but I do know that David and James were going to be there this weekend and had some meetings set up. We had hoped to hook up....but I just could not swing staying longer.

[cschang]

by the way guys......no thanks needed....it was fun.

I enjoyed visiting with Hsu and the AV123 guys, but I really wished I had more time to actually see the show. SO many toys...and not just audio.

We did go see the Blue Man Group on Wednesday...that was pretty cool.

[MacG]

Sorry......another temporary hijack. Curtis, are there plans to start up the Ascend forum? I was hoping Ascend had something to present at CES.

[cschang]

Sorry......another temporary hijack. Curtis, are there plans to start up the Ascend forum? I was hoping Ascend had something to present at CES.

It will be up soon. If you want a sneak peak, send me a PM.

[BradJudy]

Curtis,

I think you need to come out to Colo for the next Rocky Mountain Audio Fest. We'd even put you up if you'd like. :)

[ziggy]

Well, this causes a problem for new customers as myself. I was all set to purchase a VTF-3 MK2 when all this talk about the HO came about. I need a sub now, and I'm sure I would be satisfied with the VTF-3 MK2, but I cant see paying for one now when its going to be made better in a few months.

Too bad their isnt an upgrade option for new buyers.

[jbhungvt]

so I see that the woofer is side firing. The design dimensions will work AWESOME in my setup. I am one person who doesnt like square cubes because I like to use my subs as end tables, just like the good dr is envisioning for this application!

Now for a potentially dangerous question- is the top of the speaker and the bottom both smooth, so you can simply flip the speaker over to make the woofer fire left or right? (I assume no, because there would/should be holes to attach spikes??)

If there is indeed holes at the bottom of the sub to attach spikes, then is hsu planning on selling left firing and right firing speakers? In my application, I will be using two subs so I want the amp facing the wall, I need the sub that is to the left of my couch firing one direction and the sub that is to the right of my couch firing in the opposite direction. I do need speaker spikes.

Either way, I hope the marketing guys at hsu is reading this post- run a special for 2 subs and I will purchase your first pair in maple. I want serial number 001 and 002! I will even let people come over to listen if interested.

Now the only thing missing is an auto calibration EQ for the subs. Hopefully the good doctor is working on that as I type this. I need major EQ work because I have HUGE WAF and optimal sub placement isnt an option.

A pair? Are you out of your mind? 1 VTF-3HO is equivalent to 2 TN1220HO, 2 VTF-3HO would be 4 TNs....that's outrageous. But then again..if HSU is working on some special for the pair...I would get the 2 VTF-2HO instead. If not then I would get 1 VTF-3HO. I don't mind getting serials 003 and 004

[Pete_Hsu]

Greetings kind Hsu fans,

These new designs are so flexible that there are quite a lot of possibilities that open up with respect to different subwoofer setups. Stay (variably) tuned. :)

[craigsub]

Greetings kind Hsu fans,

These new designs are so flexible that there are quite a lot of possibilities that open up with respect to different subwoofer setups. Stay (variably) tuned. :)

Peter ... First "HO" stand for "Heavy Ornament" on HTF ... now we are to stay (variably) tuned ????

Happy Hour in Vegas, anyone ? ... :cool:

[Pete_Hsu]

Hi Craig,

That would make it a variably tuned heavy ornament, no doubt. :)

Cheers

[craigsub]

Hi Craig,

That would make it a variably tuned heavy ornament, no doubt. :)

Cheers

NOW I need a drink... Nothing like CES to make for some great posting on all the forums.

And Peter, a VTF-2 HO vs. another company's high output ten inch subwoofer looks like it could be LOTS of fun ... ;)

[cschang]

Well, this causes a problem for new customers as myself. I was all set to purchase a VTF-3 MK2 when all this talk about the HO came about. I need a sub now, and I'm sure I would be satisfied with the VTF-3 MK2, but I cant see paying for one now when its going to be made better in a few months.

Too bad their isnt an upgrade option for new buyers.
ziggy....my guess is the HO models will cost significantly more...and obviously they will not be available for a while.

I still think the VTF-3MK2 at $699 is an outstanding deal.

[Pete_Hsu]

For your information, this flexibility will come in ways such as turbocharged variable tuning, in addition to possibly including the option to run the subwoofer as a sealed unit if desired.

[tdekany]

that is the car driver


Do you know anything about the encloser?

[tdekany]

A pair? Are you out of your mind? 1 VTF-3HO is equivalent to 2 TN1220HO, 2 VTF-3HO would be 4 TNs....that's outrageous.

I'd want that! I really love bass!!!!! :D

TN actually has 7 15" subs in his home theatre setup. My kinda guy. :)

[tdekany]

NOW I need a drink... Nothing like CES to make for some great posting on all the forums.

And Peter, a VTF-2 HO vs. another company's high output ten inch subwoofer looks like it could be LOTS of fun ... ;)

For a SPL or SQ shootout? We all know who would win the SQ match. :D

Maybe this boy will beat it in the SPL department as well, and then Dr Hsu can get all those bassheads as new customers.

[cschang]

Do you know anything about the encloser?

Nope....but it is the 1203 driver that is currently for sale and has box size recommendation on webpage.

[cschang]

Curtis,

I think you need to come out to Colo for the next Rocky Mountain Audio Fest. We'd even put you up if you'd like. :)
That would be fun....what weekend is it this year?

[jbhungvt]

ziggy....my guess is the HO models will cost significantly more...and obviously they will not be available for a while.

I still think the VTF-3MK2 at $699 is an outstanding deal.

cschang,
oh please don't say that. My budget is only about $999, hoping for $899. significantly more sounds like high.

[craigsub]

For a SPL or SQ shootout? We all know who would win the SQ match. :D

Maybe this boy will beat it in the SPL department as well, and then Dr Hsu can get all those bassheads as new customers.

Pisture a DBT ... Two SVS and two Hsu owners ... taking notes, and each having to post his listening impressions without knowing which wubwoofer was on ... AFTER the listening test ... the subwoofers are revealed.

measurements taken after this portion is done....

[BradJudy]

That would be fun....what weekend is it this year?

It looks like Oct 1st and 2nd (http://www.audiofest.net), so lots of time for planning (and unfortunately lots of time for other things to come up). It was really neat this past year, but I was only there for a few hours - not nearly enough time.

[jbhungvt]

Pisture a DBT ... Two SVS and two Hsu owners ... taking notes, and each having to post his listening impressions without knowing which wubwoofer was on ... AFTER the listening test ... the subwoofers are revealed.

measurements taken after this portion is done....

That could be fun if you could arrange that:-)

[craigsub]

That could be fun if you could arrange that:-)

It should not be too hard .. we just need to see how much the "HO's" will sell for ... and find an appropriate match from SVS ... (pricewise) ... then find four REALLY cocky listeners... :D

[gchon]

Peter- I think you guys really hit on something now. Your subs will be able to cater to BOTH sealed AND ported biased camps! Only two things left- any kind of custom eq and finally the price. You got me either way.

I am still wondering about left/right firing positions of the woofer though. im sure you guys are busy, I'll just call you next week if you dont answer this.

[tdekany]

Pisture a DBT ... Two SVS and two Hsu owners ... taking notes, and each having to post his listening impressions without knowing which wubwoofer was on ... AFTER the listening test ... the subwoofers are revealed.

measurements taken after this portion is done....

I think the DBT excites you more then me. Living with the HSU sound for over 10 years, I think I would be able to hear the difference and I don't consider my ears **golden** - Too high SPL levels in my car for way too long.

You should have some golden ears do the tests that are neither HSU/the other brand owners. That would be more fare. However I still belive that the other brand can't match Dr HSU subs for sound. No way!

[craigsub]

I think the DBT excites you more then me. Living with the HSU sound for over 10 years, I think I would be able to hear the difference and I don't consider my ears **golden** - Too high SPL levels in my car for way too long.

You should have some golden ears do the tests that are neither HSU/the other brand owners. That would be more fare. However I still belive that the other brand can't match Dr HSU subs for sound. No way!

We need at least two Hsu and two SVS owners ... owners of other subwoofers would also be welcome to participate.

And I have seen a LOT of guys flunk a DBT ... it seems the surer they are they will succeed, the louder the SPLAT when they don't ... :rolleyes:

[Ddavidson]

oh please don't say that. My budget is only about $999, hoping for $899. significantly more sounds like high.
With the added and optional performance of the outboard turbocharger the MK2 vs HO are not likely to compete with each other on price or outright performance. With the HO having performance of two 1220's and 500w amp ($1697) I doubt you are going to be seeing it too close to $699.

This HO has eight inches of total port area at 18Hz with the option of extending to 13Hz depth (or higher output) with the additional outboard Turbocharger. I think they will be distinct markets and really can't see their being much confusion on which to buy.


Ddavidson

[tdekany]

It should not be too hard .. we just need to see how much the "HO's" will sell for ... and find an appropriate match from SVS ... (pricewise) ... then find four REALLY cocky listeners... :D

Craig - why are you trying to sompare Dr Hsu' subs with the other brand all the time? YOU SHOULD COMPARE THEM TO SOME MORE EXPENSIVE HIGH END SQ SUBS.

Don't you think there is a reason why Hsu is in all the great mags receiving excellent reviews while the other brand is lacking in that department?

[ziggy]

cschang, your probably right about the price and wait. On the other hand, if I wait I could probably get the VTF-3 MK2 for half the price on ebay, that is, if I can’t afford the HO. I suppose I’ll at least wait until all the details are out.



On another note, and I don’t mean to offend anyone, but cant we try to get all the details first before you guys start talking about testing and comparing to other subs?

[tdekany]

We need at least two Hsu and two SVS owners ... owners of other subwoofers would also be welcome to participate.

And I have seen a LOT of guys flunk a DBT ... it seems the surer they are they will succed, the louder the SPLAT when they don't ... :rolleyes:

Why have Hsu and S$S owners?

[cschang]

cschang, your probably right about the price and wait. On the other hand, if I wait I could probably get the VTF-3 MK2 for half the price on ebay, that is, if I can’t afford the HO. I suppose I’ll at least wait until all the details are out.




Who knows though....nobody told me the VTF-3MK2 is going away. It is an excellent sub at its current price.

[tdekany]

Nope....but it is the 1203 driver that is currently for sale and has box size recommendation on webpage.

I have 2 of them in a custom encloser in my car since it was introduced.

[ziggy]

I wasn't assuming the VTF-3 MK2 was going away. My assumption is some people will probably be selling theirs if they decide to upgrade to the HO. Regardless, I just want to hear about all the details so I can make a decision. Unlike some folks, with the WAF, I have a wife who is breathing down my neck for a sub. :)

[Ddavidson]

oh please don't say that. My budget is only about $999, hoping for $899. significantly more sounds like high.
With the added and optional performance of the outboard turbocharger the MK2 vs HO are not likely to compete with each other on price or outright performance. With the HO having performance of two 1220's and 500w amp ($1697) I doubt you are going to be seeing it too close to $699.

This HO in deep bass with one of its two 4" ports plugged is rated at 18Hz (+/-1dB) with the option of extending to 13Hz depth (or higher output) with the additional outboard Turbocharger. I think they will be distinct markets and really can't see their being much confusion on which to buy.


Ddavidson

[cschang]

I have to squelch the 13hz thing....it was only something that came up in a conversation when I asked "what if". It is certainly not something that Hsu offered as a feature or standard.

[Pete_Hsu]

Hello again everyone,

I am not entirely convinced that a blind test will be an ideal comprehensive solution. For one, people buy different products based on specific characteristics that they are looking for in a product. These new HO designs are so unique that there is really no highly comparable product in design. Two, blind tests are typically done with each subwoofer placed in the exact same location to ensure some level of consistency. However, in reality, especially based on subwoofer design and room restrictions, one subwoofer may be better off in one location while the other subwoofer is better off in another location. Make a note that Dr. Hsu gives personalized setup and placement advice based on a consumers preferences, system setup, and room characteristics. This may be different than placement advice given by another company. Third, to really get an appreciation for the subtle musical qualities of a subwoofer, one sometimes needs to live with the product for a long time, repeatedly listening to a variety of different source material. Fourth, one man's listening preference is just that, one man's listening preference, and it does not necessarily carry over to other people. We encourage people to come to their own conclusions about sound quality differences by personally comparing different subs in their own home if possible.

[tdekany]

I agree 1000%!


Plus I doubt any Hsu owner would be interested in a comparo against that other company.

PLUS PLUS, I have a client receiving a massage from me at 9am It is 3:35 right now. Why am I still up?

[Pete_Hsu]

gchon, I apologize for taking so long to answer your question about the left side/right side firing woofer options. I forgot to respond to it earlier.

The HO prototypes do not have spikes. In fact, part of the ingenuity in the design is that they do not really need spikes or any "floor interface solution" due to the sidefiring woofer and rear firing ports. Not only does this make the subs more aesthetically pleasing, but it makes them easier to stack, makes them easier to flip, and allows for more effective internal volume per given height. So, you should be able to easily flip the sub upside down if you want to change the direction that the woofer fires, and good aesthetics will still be maintained since the ports will still be rearfiring and since the endcap will still be properly finished in black or wood trim.

[craigsub]

Craig - why are you trying to sompare Dr Hsu' subs with the other brand all the time? YOU SHOULD COMPARE THEM TO SOME MORE EXPENSIVE HIGH END SQ SUBS.

Don't you think there is a reason why Hsu is in all the great mags receiving excellent reviews while the other brand is lacking in that department?

TDekany ... I do reviews and/or blind comparisons because people on the independent forums ASK for them. I have done several direct, blind comparison reviews with Hsu subwoofers. One against SVS and one against Rocket and Aperion. I also did a test between the STF-1 and the Velo CHT-12. The STF-1 SMOKED the Velo. Noone even commented on it. During this time I have also tested an Aperion S-12 and a Maestro from ACI. By the way, in a total of five blind tests, Hsu has three resounding victories, and two narrow losses.

NOW ... Why do YOU think the SVS vs. Hsu subwoofer subwoofers generate the most interest ? In the open forums, THAT is the question posters ask, should I buy an SVS ? or a Hsu ?

That being said, I would LOVE to add another dimension to this shootout, IF it happens. The "winner", if there is one, takes on something "high end" ... perhaps a Velo DD-18 ... or something along that line.

I am open to all sorts of suggestions. I also have one for you ... try being nice in your questions. You would be amazed at the results... :)

[craigsub]

Hello again everyone,

I am not entirely convinced that a blind test will be an ideal comprehensive solution. For one, people buy different products based on specific characteristics that they are looking for in a product. These new HO designs are so unique that there is really no highly comparable product in design. Two, blind tests are typically done with each subwoofer placed in the exact same location to ensure some level of consistency. However, in reality, especially based on subwoofer design and room restrictions, one subwoofer may be better off in one location while the other subwoofer is better off in another location. Make a note that Dr. Hsu gives personalized setup and placement advice based on a consumers preferences, system setup, and room characteristics. This may be different than placement advice given by another company. Third, to really get an appreciation for the subtle musical qualities of a subwoofer, one sometimes needs to live with the product for a long time, repeatedly listening to a variety of different source material. Fourth, one man's listening preference is just that, one man's listening preference, and it does not necessarily carry over to other people. We encourage people to come to their own conclusions about sound quality differences by personally comparing different subs in their own home if possible.

Peter, This is not my attempt in getting into an argument with you, but I respectfully disagree with this post, based on my experiences.

When doing every blind test using subwoofers, I have found the position behind our sofa to be optimal. It keeps the subwoofers nearfield, and also excites a minimum of room resonances. All you hear is the subwoofer itself.

I even had sent Dr. Hsu the room's layout before the first subwoofer shootout last January, and he recommended the IDENTICAL location for the subwoofers (VTF-3.2's) that I had used for previous auditions, and was already planning for this.

However, If you do not think such a comparison is in your best interests, I am OK with that. As I stated from the beginning here, Dr. Hsu would have to approve of the idea.... :)

I DO agree with the concept that people should audition subwoofers in his/her own home. However, economics play a large role in this. The average buyer does not want to "lose" between $100 and $500 in shipping charges in order to demo 3 or 4 subwoofers in home.

The reviews I have done were for those very people.

And again, I DO get comments from people saying "A blind test is not important... I can EASILY pick out MY subwoofer/speaker/amp ANYDAY."

The most recent was from a particular loudspeaker owner who KNEW he could EASILY take a blind test and pick his speaker every time. SO... he did not NEED to take one.

Of course, these guys RARELY, if EVER, have done a blind test. Afterall, putting your opinions on the line with JUST your ears to back up one's public proclamations takes a bit of courage...

If there is any interest in such a test, drop me a line... Otherwise, the new HO stuff looks great, and I wish you well !... :)

[craigsub]

I agree 1000%!


Plus I doubt any Hsu owner would be interested in a comparo against that other company.

PLUS PLUS, I have a client receiving a massage from me at 9am It is 3:35 right now. Why am I still up?

tdekany ... Again, Go to AVS or HTF, and the question is ALWAYS asked ... "Hsu or SVS?" ... though the Rocket UFW-12 is getting some online inquiries now.

Hope you got some rest.

[bikeman]

"Craig - why are you trying to sompare Dr Hsu' subs with the other brand all the time?"

That's what most people on all but this forum want? Works for me.

David

[gchon]

Peter- reading Curtis's post somewhere, if you guys dont decide to manufacture maple subs, then I'll take the two prototypes seriously as long as you guys make sure it has all of the real goods. I'll call you guys on monday. FWIW, I like the wood colored tops, do not make a wood colored subs with black ends.

[cschang]

Peter- reading Curtis's post somewhere, if you guys dont decide to manufacture maple subs, then I'll take the two prototypes seriously as long as you guys make sure it has all of the real goods. I'll call you guys on monday. FWIW, I like the wood colored tops, do not make a wood colored subs with black ends.
Hhehehehe....get in line!!
Besides...the prototypes do not have the new amp or driver yet.

[bjurw]

Just get a VTF3-MK2 as YOU WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED. Have $200 "extra" to spend on Ventriloquist system or DVD's, or whatever. The grass is ALWAYS greener on the other side. I got my VTF3 in Sept. and I am never looking back. Even though a HO would be nice, the VTF is a great sub already. I LOVE MY VTF3.

[jbhungvt]

Just get a VTF3-MK2 as YOU WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED. Have $200 "extra" to spend on Ventriloquist system or DVD's, or whatever. The grass is ALWAYS greener on the other side. I got my VTF3 in Sept. and I am never looking back. Even though a HO would be nice, the VTF is a great sub already. I LOVE MY VTF3.

Couldn't agree more:-)

[Pete_Hsu]

"Craig - why are you trying to sompare Dr Hsu' subs with the other brand all the time?"

That's what most people on all but this forum want? Works for me.

David

Hello David,

A lot of people on this forum are more than interested in comparing Hsu Research designs to that of our competitors. Naturally, we do not want any focus on our own forum to go towards a competing product though ;) However, the new HO designs are unique enough where there is not an ideal basis for comparison with the competition's products.

In my opinion, only a true audio genius such as Dr. Hsu could have cooked up a design like he did for the HO products.

Cheers

[tdekany]

Hello David, In my opinion, only a true audio genius such as Dr. Hsu could have cooked up a design like he did for the HO products. Cheers

This is the very reason why I find this comparison business useless - it is really insulting to even think that a sub that comes from that other company would evewn be worthwhile to compare to Dr Hsu's design.

Do those bass heads (I am a bass head as well) on the other forums ever think what would a Hsu designed SPL sub be like? Their subs having a hard time "beating" his SQ subs!!

Man - I am so happy that I was introduced to Hsu research!

Thanks Stereophile!

[spyboy]

Peter

You won't get any argument from me about the genius of the HO products. Never the less, the argument that there is no other product available or pending (such as the Rocket UFW 12) that would make for a useful comparison is weak at best. Price is certainly the starting point to determine if a comparison is reasonable. Then performance and features. The HO has an unusual feature set but comparisons are inevitable. Leaving out the turbo we have a very stylish, variable tuning, ported, 500 watt box sub that makes use of every square inch of cabinet space. No one expects HSU to give the competition any "air time", but people are going to be making their own comparisons and it seems you are already putting HSU in a defensive position for what is perhaps the new HSU flagship. That could give the impression that you are afraid of the competition. Perhaps Dr. Hsu will consent to have Keith Yates test the 3HO, and maybe Yates will test it by itself rather than against any other sub or subs.
The 3HO can hold its own. The great cabinet design alone makes it the sub to beat right now, especially in the blond maple wood.

[Ddavidson]

Other general a/v forums are far better places for indepth non professonal comparisions .... mainly because audio is subjective and those comparisions will always lead to dead end arguments. Otherwise even if the score card indicated the products where even, allowing good light on direct competitors product would be like the Red Sox paying for Yankees advertising.

What you read here "should be biased", its not designed to be supporting or giving brownie points to direct competition.

As far as I am aware this is the Hsu owners support forum and a place where Hsu can freely market their products. Got or thinking about getting a Hsu product, got a problem with a Hsu product, or just plain want to know how it works (or what it does) ...... then this is the place to post.

Of course if Hsu want to market and sell their dream here and it all seem's "one sided" then that's just normal because remember "they pay to keep the lights on here".

Ddavidson

[Pete_Hsu]

Greetings spyboy,

We have always encouraged people to compare our products to others if possible in their own home.

We would also never suggest that there are not other excellent alternatives out there for consumers, or that competition does not exist. This is quite different than saying that our product is unique enough to stand out on it's own in certain respects.

That said, let's actually roll out the new product first before talking about blind listening tests against our competitor's products. ;)

If a reputed pro reviewer such as Keith Yates, Robert Deutsch, Tom Nousaine, Howard Ferstler, Don Keele, etc wanted to put together a shootout between our HO products and our competitor's products, most likely we would be very interested in participating.

This begs the question: will our competitor's be interested in competing on this level?

[tdekany]

Well said Peter!

[tafguy]

Hi Peter,

Just a quick jump into the thread, I've been away for few weeks, went to Las Vegas, 2 weeks earlier than CES 2005, for other reasons than $$$ and spent most of the other times in LA and Orange County. I nearly dropped by to see you guys in Anaheim, but Universal Studio, Disneyland among others were bigger and I had so many things to do in a very short time. So many threads to catch up now I'm back.

I'm very happy to learn that HSU has revealed new great prototypes. Man, I missed all these cool threads.

Wish you guys at HSU a happy New Year 2005 and the same goes for all the folks in this forum.


If a reputed pro reviewer such as Keith Yates, Robert Deutsch, Tom Nousaine, Howard Ferstler, Don Keele, etc wanted to put together a shootout between our HO products and our competitor's products, most likely we would be very interested in participating.

This begs the question: will our competitor's be interested in competing on this level?

I love to see in near future reputed pro reviews on HSU's HO products and HSU competitor's products, but it will be probably take a very long time.

Any known serious competitor to these future new products because so far I don't see anyone with the existing ones?.

Great work!

[spyboy]

Peter

Is the 500 watt amp on the 3HO a sure thing? Someone has reported 375 watts over on the AVS forum. I posted a correction saying 500 watts. I would find it very hard to believe that Dr. Hsu would put a placard saying 500 watts on the demo at CES and then it turns out it is going to be 375 watts. Can you please clarify this once and for all?

Thanks

[Pete_Hsu]

Hello spyboy,

The power should be 500 watts RMS. The 375 watt number was actually mentioned by one of our forum members here as pre-CES speculation on the HO model.

:)

Have a great day!

[debron]

A sidetrack.

The HO is taller so as to double as an end table. Could the VTF3 or STF3 be placed on a riser to accomplish the same end without compromise to sound quality?

[cschang]

A sidetrack.

The HO is taller so as to double as an end table. Could the VTF3 or STF3 be placed on a riser to accomplish the same end without compromise to sound quality?
I think so, as long as it is a solid platform.

[Mike Sloan]

This is the very reason why I find this comparison business useless - it is really insulting to even think that a sub that comes from that other company would evewn be worthwhile to compare to Dr Hsu's design.
Do those bass heads (I am a bass head as well) on the other forums ever think what would a Hsu designed SPL sub be like? Their subs having a hard time "beating" his SQ subs!!
Man - I am so happy that I was introduced to Hsu research!
Thanks Stereophile!

That is plain goofy! I own subwoofers from both companies....and there are sonic differences that set them apart....and we all know what they are! craigsub does a wonderful job in his "famous/infamous" subwoofer shootouts and they are extremely interesting and informative. Like any review...it is just a tool that can be used in forming an opinion. The un-biased individual welcomes this! I have room in my audio universe for many companies and their diverse products. Come on in...the water is fine!

[Steve nn]

That is plain goofy! I own subwoofers from both companies....and there are sonic differences that set them apart....and we all know what they are! craigsub does a wonderful job in his "famous/infamous" subwoofer shootouts and they are extremely interesting and informative. Like any review...it is just a tool that can be used in forming an opinion. The un-biased individual welcomes this! I have room in my audio universe for many companies and their diverse products. Come on in...the water is fine!

Glad you replied Mike and I agree with your assessment..:)

[cschang]

Steve, have you heard a Hsu sub? Which one?

[Steve nn]

Steve, have you heard a Hsu sub? Which one?

I listened to the VTF-2 about 5-6 years ago. I have had plenty of conversations with HSU owners and viewed many posts/ reviews> where I do not doubt the validity of their offerings and performance though.

Mike S happens to be one of the owners I speak of.

[cschang]

Have you read Mike S's post about his VTF-3 with the new MK2 amp? It is on here somewhere. Maybe he will chime back in.

Wait a second? 5-6 years ago? But not current offerings compared to SVS's current offerings? Steve, you are one of the more objective sub owners on the boards, imagine what would happen if I went on HTF and said my Hsu sounds better(and it does :D) and did not hear an SVS for 5 years......I know, I know...that was before they were in existence....but you know what I am saying.

I do agree with Mike....the sonic characteristics are different. I will add that correlation of measured data and subjective perception of subwoofers is still not established the way that Floyd Toole and Sean Olive have established for full-range speakers.

[cschang]

Steve......I didn't mean to imply that you thought your SVS was superior. That wasn't the point...sorry if it came out that way.

[Steve nn]

Steve......I didn't mean to imply that you thought your SVS was superior. That wasn't the point...sorry if it came out that way.

No but Thank you for your sensitivity Curtis. I do hope you know I would not come over here and make such a post though? I do notice posts in the other direction, but that is to be expected. Like mentioned before> Mike said what I would have said if I owned a HSU also and liked it.


I haven't read Mikes review but I'll be sure to track it down and take a peek. I have always valued Mikes opinion and he in part influenced me to demo the speakers that I run today. Klipsch RB-75's and C-7.(Gasp) Always had a negative view of them until I tried them out.

I do not have the same negative view of HSU though and I think you know that from all my past posts over at the HTF. Sure I run the other companies products and have so for quite some time. Plan on it in the future also but maybe I'll intergrate another option? SVS-Maestro-HSU who's to say??


So you think your HSU sounds better than my PB12-Ultra/2 hu? WELL!! I can live with that Curtis and that's ok. Please remember it's you that said that though.:)


Yes it has been 5-6 years and a poor demo at that. Never said I didn't like it. I'm fairly sure I would like the performance of the HSU line as I'm fairly sure most over hear would like what they hear out of a SVS.:o

[cschang]

Totally understood...and I think you are welcome here.

Mike didn't really write a review....it was just more of a "wow" statement.

For the record...I have not heard any of SVS's Ultra subs...at least not closely. I do think the Hsu's sound better than the SVS's I have heard in my home. Yes...I will remember. :) I want people to know that I have taken the time to listen to both companies in my room.

I'm fairly sure I would like the performance of the HSU line as I'm fairly sure most over hear would like what they hear out of a SVS.
Hmmm...maybe...maybe not. :)

[Mike Sloan]

I love the competition and "banter" between the two camps! Competition only leads to better products. I try to not allow myself to acquire a "brand loyal" mentality....call me a fair weather fan...whichever sounds the best! HSU makes killer subs...and I have fell in love with their musicality. I constantly flip flop on which of the subs I prefer for music and movies. I love the PC-Ultra....and I also love the sound of the VTF3 MKII. I also allow for the possibility that DR HSU may have "lightning in a bottle" with his new HO VTF3. I don't see the conflict here. Both companies produce killer products and have the best customer care I have ever experienced. Win Win! Let the games begin.

Curtis...what exactly is the "turbocharger" part of the HO-VTF3?
p.s. I never do reviews...my comments are purely subjective and should be viewed as such...hell, 13000 hours of flight time have left their toll...still can feel that basssss!

[Steve nn]

Totally understood...and I think you are welcome here.

Mike didn't really write a review....it was just more of a "wow" statement.

For the record...I have not heard any of SVS's Ultra subs...at least not closely. I do think the Hsu's sound better than the SVS's I have heard in my home. Yes...I will remember. :) I want people to know that I have taken the time to listen to both companies in my room.


Hmmm...maybe...maybe not. :)


>>>Totally understood...and I think you are welcome here.<<<

Understand your apprehension.;)

>>> I want people to know that I have taken the time to listen to both companies in my room.<<<

Yes, I remember the little get-together you had. It's been some time so I cant say I recall the specific's. I do think it rather noble of you to give the 20-39PC+ a demo though.(If I remember correctly?) I'm sure you know that all SVS offerings differ to some degree? I have ran many and they all have their own characteristics including the Ultra driver over the dB driver.

[cschang]

actually and 20-39PC+ and PB12+(at seperate times)......even those two sound different from one another. I am in total agreement with you. From what I have read, the Ultra subs sound more like the Hsu subs....at least that is my perception.

Anyways...this is the Hsu forum....we should be discussing Hsu subs.

[tdekany]

That is plain goofy! I own subwoofers from both companies....and there are sonic differences that set them apart....and we all know what they are! craigsub does a wonderful job in his "famous/infamous" subwoofer shootouts and they are extremely interesting and informative. Like any review...it is just a tool that can be used in forming an opinion. The un-biased individual welcomes this! I have room in my audio universe for many companies and their diverse products. Come on in...the water is fine!

Mike - It may sound plain goofy to you, but I am entitled to my opinions. It is a free country.

Maybe you do , but I don't have my money growing on trees. So I am careful about how I spend it.

I will never support TVs company seeing how he conducts business & how he comes across on those BBs. If you have the need to have their sub, well, the more power to you. To me that is plain goofy! I mean what purpose does their sub serve?

[Michael Bain]

You've got to hand it to Hsu. These new VTF HO subs should take the cake in clean output at their given box size, and may even have more clean output down low than some other much larger box subs.

[delling001]

While the projected performance of the new VTF-HO subs promise to be outstanding... I am also struck by the NEW cabinet design (of the VTF-2 HO) in particular, and see a "potential" opportunity for HSU to change over some of their other models to similar cabinet structure down the road. The pictures of the VTF-2 HO looks to immediately solve one of my own personal dilemmas in that the current VTF-2 design is too tall to fit underneath my sofa endtable and not really tall enough to be an endtable itself. It appears the VTF-2 HO prototype cabinet corrects that for me, AND improves that even further with the side firing feature that can be directed to either side simply by flipping the top/bottom of sub upside down. NOW :cool: .... if you also couple that great design with an effective "wireless subwoofer interface" (maybe HSU can test/recommend or build one and offer from his site..??) that can eliminate the sub cable all together..?? Well, a whole new array of placement options now not only would become "realistic", but extremely easy!

So, I wonder if future models of VTF-MK2 or STF will migrate to the new flexible cabinet design at some point..?? Interesting to note that prototype had current VTF-MK2 driver and amp in it as well, in absence of availability of new driver/amp...

I know the HO models won't be available for a while, but the more I think about the new cabinet design the more useful it seems to become..?? :D

[spyboy]

Delling

Yes, the new cabinet design is both very practical and stylish. And not an inch of wasted space. These are now some of the most attractive box subs available, especailly in the blond maple finish.

[delling001]

Delling

Yes, the new cabinet design is both very practical and stylish. And not an inch of wasted space. These are now some of the most attractive box subs available, especailly in the blond maple finish.

spyboy, I too really like the blond maple finish on the new cabinet from what I can tell. Curtis did a great job with that new digital camera of his, and his shots seem to give a better sense (color accurate?) of the real beauty of this finish more than some other photos posted on this forum with other HSU models I've seen in the past. Now that HSU's got that cabinet design down sweet.... I want that "wireless" connect :cool: . However, I just don't know enough about the technical aspects to know if there is any loss of signal, clean output, SQ, or anything... with that type solution...?? But WOW, GREAT cabinet design flexibility and asthetics on the upcoming VTF-HO models! :)

[cschang]

Curtis did a great job with that new digital camera of his, and his shots seem to give a better sense (color accurate?) of the real beauty of this finish more than some other photos posted on this forum with other HSU models I've seen in the past.
Thanks Dave. I used the camera's auto white balance feature......it could probably be more accurate.....but I think the representation in the pictures is good.

[Pete_Hsu]

Good afternoon all,

I just wanted to send a friendly reminder to everyone to stay on topic, and keep personal and off-topic remarks offline!

And keep your eyes open for more good things to come down the road. Fear not my friends, we have some great ideas for some ultra high performance flagship products moving forward.

Cheers

:)

[Pete_Hsu]

Let me just add that my response above was not directed at delling and his comments in this thread! We had to delete two or three posts that were starting to boil things up.

I really don't have a problem with general--even off-topic--discussion as long as things don't turn personal.

Thank you guys again!

[Michael Bain]

So will the HO models include a free t-shirt, hat, or wall plaque?

[Michael Bain]

More pics from CES:

http://live.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/ces.pl?&AP_2563&RoomView&AP&st201&&&&&CES05

[Lwang]

Are those extension cords? In keeping with Hsu's cheap peripheral component idea? Where did the FP come from? Shouldn't he be using a 25" Sankyong TV with ultra-round picture tube?

[cschang]

Dell projector....and 16gauge power cable from Home Depot.

[Lwang]

I guess Dr. Hsu doesn't have much connection in the A/V world (at least in the budget field). Those guys usually swap gears so they get other brand of components for the price it takes to mfg one of your unit.

[cschang]

Nope....that wasn't it. They wanted to show how inexpensive a great sounding setup could be.

[Michael Bain]

Nothing shows of cheap more than bright orange colored generic cable. It looks just about good enough to use as an extension cord for a light that someone uses in their garage while changing their car's oil.

[youngho]

I disagree. From what I've read in previous show reports, this is not "slumming." Using budget components is what Dr Hsu has always apparently done.

I mean, come on! A customer interested in the Ventriloquist system is NOT going to buy $1000/ft speaker cable. Hsu offers great bang-for-the-buck, but potential customers who are THAT concerned about speaker cable are probably going to buy subwoofers and speakers a lot more expensive than those from Hsu.

So it looks cheap. Guess what? The Ventriloquist IS cheap.

Someone walking by the room who's never heard of Hsu might come in when he HEARS the Hsu subs and speakers. You have to admit that it's probably different enough from the other rooms.

Anyway, that's just my opinion, ad we're all entitled to have our opinion, blah blah blah. I'm not interested in arguing, so no more from me on this topic. Feel free to talk about how wrong I am.

Young-Ho

[Pete_Hsu]

Hello Young-Ho,

These guys are just giving us some good-natured banter about Dr. Hsu's knack for putting together a great sounding system with relatively inexpensive components. No harm, no foul, as Dr. Hsu is notorious for doing this at exhibitions. :)

Cheers

[spiffnme]

While I'm all for inexpensive, couldn't he have used cheap radio shack 14awg bulk speaker wire? Using an orange extension cord to wire up the speakers just looks dumb...not cheap.

Sorry Dr. Hsu! Still love your subs!

[cschang]

5 cents a foot.

[tdekany]

[QUOTE=spiffnme] Using an orange extension cord to wire up the speakers just looks dumb...not cheap. QUOTE]

How would it be more logical to use some cheap RS wire?

You know that if you can't say something nice, don't say anything.

I think purchasing a $15000 interconnect IS dumb - m2c

[spiffnme]

The good doctor sure has some loyal fans when using a bright orange extension cord to wire speakers is defended. :) LOL

I just put too much value on the looks of a system to be alright with that setup. Going from .05/foot to .25/foot would cost all of maybe $5.00. Who here thinks that would be a complete waste of $5.00?

Just trying to let you know where my comments came from. Again it's by no means a slam against Hsu's subs. Just his marketing ideas.

[spyboy]

That orange extension cord wire is thick enough and just eccentric enough looking to be mistaken for some $100 a foot exotic speaker wire. To really get the exotic look though, running it through some garden hose would absolutely get the right look.

[Roddy]

Any updates on this?

I'm ready to purchase a sub, and then saw that the new version is coming soon. I hate to wait and wait and nothing happen forever.

I also don't want to go over $1000.

Buy now or wait?

[tdekany]

Any updates on this?

I'm ready to purchase a sub, and then saw that the new version is coming soon. I hate to wait and wait and nothing happen forever.

I also don't want to go over $1000.

Buy now or wait?

I know my post is not very helpful, but here it is: The VTF3 MKII is as good of a sub as they come. Both music and movie are reproduced so well, that I get a smile on my face every time I listen. And I have been listening to Hsu subs for over 10 years. :)

Now - would I wait for the HO to come out? I couldn't decide, since the MKII version is getting an upgrade.
I guess what I am trying to say is that it is a win-win situation. You simply can't loose.

Let us know how you decide.

[bacobits]

I am in the same situation. I might be ordering tomorrow a VTF3 MKII.
I think my HRSW10V might be sold.

Den

[Roddy]

I'm actually thinking about going with a SVS sub at the moment. Those tall cylinders can sure reach deep.

Hard to decide between them and hsu. Lots of good things said about each. Oh the decisions

[Pete_Hsu]

Dear Roddy,

I like to tell people that all good things come to those who wait. Patience my friend, just a few more months now. :)

Sincerely,

[Active Speaker]

Don't go with an SVS; buy a TN1220 or a VTF-3 MKII, or ANY Hsu sub: they're all excellent performers!

[pjr]

Well, this causes a problem for new customers as myself. I was all set to purchase a VTF-3 MK2 when all this talk about the HO came about. I need a sub now, and I'm sure I would be satisfied with the VTF-3 MK2, but I cant see paying for one now when its going to be made better in a few months.

Too bad their isnt an upgrade option for new buyers.Im in the same boat.Really need this now.I would really prefer a side firing sub so I hope its soon.

[Roddy]

Think a VTF-3 MK2 HO will rival a TN1220HO?

[jbhungvt]

Think a VTF-3 MK2 HO will rival a TN1220HO?

BETTER!!, It will rival 2 TN1220HO

[tdekany]

Think a VTF-3 MK2 HO will rival a TN1220HO?

Se, Ja, Yes!