Just ordered my VTF-3 MKII

[Iceblade]

Well, I went and did it. After years of being on the fence for a variety of reasons, including being cash poor :) I finally ordered the VTF-3 MKII for my 17x18x8 theater room. Having Dr. Hsu leave me a voice mail concerning placement and other concerns was pretty much the deciding factor (not counting the numerous amazing reviews and recommendations throughout the internet).

That being said... I'm already salivating in anticipation. I moved my Paradigm PW-2200 back to the downstairs family room theater where it belongs and now there is this gaping hole which needs to be filled by the Hsu.

Got a quick question concerning the use of Avia to calibrate the sub correctly. I seem to recall reading that the Avia disc was incorrectly mastered or something with regards to it's test tones and that you should calibrate all channels to 85dB instead of 75dB when using that. Is that correct? Also, how does the compensation factors for the Rat Shack SPL meter factor into the test tones? i.e. do I still just set the sub for 85dB or do I need to add an offset for the SPL level read by the meter?

Thanks guys,
Jeff

[KFB]

Avia is fine. It's DVE that has the sub problem
Concrats on your sub

[DavidD]

Well, I went and did it. After years of being on the fence for a variety of reasons, including being cash poor :) I finally ordered the VTF-3 MKII for my 17x18x8 theater room. Having Dr. Hsu leave me a voice mail concerning placement and other concerns was pretty much the deciding factor (not counting the numerous amazing reviews and recommendations throughout the internet).

That being said... I'm already salivating in anticipation. I moved my Paradigm PW-2200 back to the downstairs family room theater where it belongs and now there is this gaping hole which needs to be filled by the Hsu.

Got a quick question concerning the use of Avia to calibrate the sub correctly. I seem to recall reading that the Avia disc was incorrectly mastered or something with regards to it's test tones and that you should calibrate all channels to 85dB instead of 75dB when using that. Is that correct? Also, how does the compensation factors for the Rat Shack SPL meter factor into the test tones? i.e. do I still just set the sub for 85dB or do I need to add an offset for the SPL level read by the meter?

Thanks guys,
Jeff

Avia is not incorrectly metered. However, you are correct that you should calibrate all channels to 85dB. That is the way Avia is intended to be used. The DVD instructions will tell you that. Also - Avia doesn't have a calibration tone for the LFE channel. Instead, it sends the tone to the mains and trusts bass management to direct the tone to the sub based upon the crossover. (This works fine unless you have your mains set to large.) Avia does have some LFE test signals, but they aren't intended to be used for setting levels.

Read the FAQ on the Avia site for more information about this.

[Iceblade]

Thanks, guys. I could have sworn I've done that before.. but it's been ages. The internal test tones on my B&K AVR507 seemed pretty decent, but I never did a spectral analysis to see if it was using bandlimited pink noise or what. For setting my notch filters it allows me to pump 20-200Hz sine waves through the sub.


Bearing in mind that Avia is not a good starting point for setting LFE level... do most of you just use test tones within your receivers/preamps or test discs or the Hsu bass disc with the Rat Shack meter to set your LFE?

Thanks,
Jeff

[Iceblade]

Still waiting on tracking info for the new VTF-3... chomping at the bit waitng for it to arrive as well as the new Sammy DLP tv. Ugh... must have new toys NOW! :)

As for the Avia issue... I have since re-read Guy Kuo's excellent writeup on using Avia to set speaker levels. Printed that puppy out and have it sitting up in the theater as we speak.

Here it is for those that wish to read it:
http://www.hometheaterforum.com/htforum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=12228


Regs,
Jeff

[DNelms]

Hey Jeff-

I feel your pain about waiting.

I have a VTF-3R and the B&K AVR507. I have player with the Avia setup, the VE setup, and the internal test tone generator. I have found that in my room the B&K's internal test tone is pretty close to that of the Avia disc.

I have my notch set at 56htz. with a -3 gain. The width is set at 53.7 - 58.3. This yielded a pretty flat response. However I am going to recheck my settings when I get the chance because I changed my sub cable and I can really hear a difference (for the better) so I just need to see if things are still lined up.

Dave

[Iceblade]

Dave,

Awesome! Glad to see there is someone else out there running the AVR507. I know I had a pretty bad peak around the 50-60 Hz area last time I looked when I was using my Paradigm PW-2200 up there. I'll need to go through the motions again once I get the Hsu in house. I am thinking about snagging a parametric EQ or BFD to tame some of this... since I have the version 1 AVR507 and not the new version 2 with 3 notch filters. Once I get my receiver upgraded to version specs... I'll most likely move the PEQ or BFD to my downstairs theater and see if that helps. SO much to do... so very little time.

One piece of good news... new DLP will be here next Wednesday. So hopefully I will be in at least video nirvana if not Hsu nirvana next week. Any idea how long it usually takes to get tracking info from Hsu?

Thanks,
Jeff

[cschang]

Jeff....maybe the email got lost somewhere.....you know how the internet is nowadays.

Give Hsu a call. Did you order on the phone or the web?

[DNelms]

Jeff-


Unfortunately I have never had to track anything I have bought from Hsu, I am within driving distance of thier showroom. What I do know is that Dr Hsu and the staff are always very quick to respond when ever I have a concern or problem. If they are not responding to e-mail, give them a call. I am sure they will be glad to help.

As far as the 507, I have version 2 and I think it just has 1 notch, but I will have to check that out. (at least I have only set one notch so far)

Dave

[Iceblade]

Guys,

Just an update... about two hours after I posted (and 10 minutes before I left for the night to head out with my wife), Mr. FedEx arrived with a certain large box. WOO HOO! I hope to spend this afternoon setting the puppy up as best I can before my wife brings my daughter home from Grandma's house. Needless to say, I can't wait to hear it in my room! I'll let you know how setup goes.

Thanks for all the help!

Regs,
Jeff

[Pete_Hsu]

I hope you enjoy it, Jeff! Please let us know how everything goes for you.

Sincerely,

[tgrisham]

Congrats! I love my VTF-3R II and enjoy it every time I use it. I finally got over the back pain from moving it around so many times. No audiophile friends-at least none as obsessed as I am! Take your time. Setting up a sub is as important as choosing one. Have fun!

[Iceblade]

OK, quick update on the new VTF-3...

Only got to play around with things for about an one and a half on Saturday. Stuck the sub in my room's front right corner on top of a Auralex Gramma iso-platform. Here's a couple thoughts:

1.) Packing - wow... nice to see my sub was well protected in it's journey from Cali.

2.) Spiked feet - HOLY MOLEY! These should be marketed as deadly weapons. I think these four feet might make up about half of the weight of the shipped sub! :) j/k

3.) Setup - First impressions upon setting things up with Avia... since I hadn't run through the audio section of Avia EVER, I noticed some major issues immediately. First and foremost, several of my channels were out of phase with one another. Chalk this up to the morons who did my theater's pre-wiring. I WANTED to do it myself, but my house builder refused saying that they only way to warranty the work was to have Joe Bob's Moronic Installer's Inc. do the work. Ugh. Anyway... I took the short and easy way out and just flipped the black and red banana plugs going into my receiver for each channel that was out of phase. I'm still not certain I have all of the phase issues fixed, as it's pretty difficult to tell a "focused" sound from a "dispersed" sound when using the left front direct radiator and the dipole surround as the signal source. Need to play some more. I didn't have any time at all to plot response with my Rat Shack meter. That will require several hours on a weekend. As for comparing the 85dB settings in Avia with my 75dB setup using the internal test tones of my B&K AVR507... they seemed pretty close, just like Dave had said above. I'll need to investigate more to be certain. Other issues I have is that currently, the VTF-3 is not blending seemlessly with my Paradigm Reference speakers. There is a major noticeable difference as various test tones and sweeps/warbles are used. The crossover region appears very well defined. Also, I think there are quite a few problem areas in my room with regards to the main listening position as I heard lots of peaks and valleys when playing the sweeps from 125Hz and down.

4.) Test material - Bearing in mind that it appears that I still have LOTS of setup to do on the sub/audio system as a whole... I popped in U-571 and Attack of the Clones in for a quick listen. They both sounded pretty good, but not awe inspiring. I actually would say that I don't recall any discernible difference between what I hear now and what I heard using the PW-2200. Again... bear in mind there are still numerous setup issues remaining. Musically, I popped in the Hsu test disc, but it was so far away from being anything I would ever listen to normally, that I grew bored and quickly popped in Dream Theater's "Images and Words" and "Awake" cds. Both sounded very good... but I'm still missing the presence and chest impact that I am looking for on the kick drum... same as I thought when using the PW-2200. I threw in Arch Enemy's "Wages of Sin" cd afterwards and was amazed at how much more top end was on that cd production-wise than the two Dream Theater cds. Bass was farily lacking.. which is odd since it's fairly prevalent when listening in my truck that boasts no subwoofer at all... just 6.5" door mounted Focal Polykevlar speakers.

5.) Overall impression - Thus far, I think it's good not great. It isn't really excelling at music or theater better than the other... but lots of setup remains to be done. I also need to experiment with moving the sub to the right REAR corner of my room next to my listening position, as this was the only other possible placement. I hope to do plots of room response to get a better feel for things in the coming weeks. I'll be sure to keep everyone updated.

Thanks and regards,
Jeff

[Pete_Hsu]

Dear Jeff,

Thank you very much for posting your initial impressions! Make sure to check out our 'Service' tab, and fill out the Product Recommendation and Support form. Dr. Hsu should be able to help you squeeze as much performance out of your subwoofer as possible in your room.

Things will only get better from here!

Thanks again

Sincerely,
Peter Marcks

[Iceblade]

Peter,

You bet. I had previsouly filled out that form and FAX'd it to Dr. Hsu who called me back the next day and left a message. In addition Sacha emailed me a reply as well. Both of the their opinions coincided with the two corners of my room that I mentioned above. Like I said... it looks like lots more work ahead as far as setup goes 'til I am happy with everything. It's just a matter of finding the time when my family isn't trying to sleep and I'm not doing the Daddy thing so I can run the frequency response plots at each location and find out what works best.

Thanks again,
Jeff

[DNelms]

Hey Jeff-


Glad to hear that your sub has arrived and you are fully into tweaking mode.

When I was setting mine up with the 507, remember to be sure that the speakers are in the small (THX) setting. This is very important as it sets up the bass management required for use with Avia. I have been informed that it is also important to be sure that the speaker distances are correctly entered into the set up menu as this may cause problems with th esubwoofer's phase. And finally, I have had much more luck with the receiver set with the THX Ultra sub to NO.

Anyway, have fun....

Dave

[Iceblade]

Dave,

Thanks for the tips. Yep, I have everything set to small and the NOT set to THX Ultra. I can't believe how many of my channels were out of phase with one another. I still need to verify that the sub is in phase with the mains now, but as Guy Kuo stated, it's virtually impossible to do that without an assistant to toggle the phase switch back and forth while you listen.

Thanks,
Jeff

[Dudley]

If you can set the distance for your subwoofer, then you could just try that and set the phase to 0.

[Iceblade]

Dudley,

I'm not certain what you are talking about. I have the distance set for all my speakers including the sub. Currently the phase is set to 0 on the sub, but switching it from 0 to 180 and running back to the main listening position to "hear" if things changed for the better or worse was not a fruitful practice, so I gave up. Hopefully I can get the wife to play "switchmaster" this weekend while I listen... but we'll see.

Thanks,
Jeff

[Dudley]

The sub phase switch helps to get the timing of the subwoofer correct for when it is not located near the mains. If your reciever knows how far away the sub is, then the timing is correct and the phase can be set to 0.

Of course there are many factors involved so experimenting with phase and placement should be encouraged.

[DNelms]

I have the distance set for all my speakers including the sub. Currently the phase is set to 0 on the sub, but switching it from 0 to 180 and running back to the main listening position to "hear" if things changed for the better or worse was not a fruitful practice, so I gave up. Hopefully I can get the wife to play "switchmaster" this weekend while I listen... but we'll see.

Jeff-

try going into the LFE set-up menu on the 507. While sitting in your normal listening position and with your meter in hand, try switching the sub phase in the recievers menu. I tried this and I did not get any change in my subs output. So, I set my subs phase to 0, played the test tones for phase checks, noted the output levels. Then I did the same thing with the phase at several points. each time noting if there was any change in output.

To be honest, I, or the meter, did not notice much change. So I have my phase set to normal on my receiver and 0 on the sub, but you may get totally different results.

Dave

[Iceblade]

Thanks for the tips, guys. New DLP arrives in a few hours... hope to at least enjoy a few minutes of a movie with the Hsu before the kiddo goes to bed. :)

Thanks,
Jeff

[Iceblade]

Dave,

I meant to ask you, do you use the 507's cutoff for the low pass or do you use the Hsu's crossover? Since my mains are NOT full range... though they are advertised as going down to 35Hz with flat response (yeah, right), I'm thinking that the gap between where the Studio 40's start losing response and the 80 Hz cutoff in my receiver might be contributing to my less than linear sounding room. Again... no measurements to date... perhaps this weekend though.

Thanks,
Jeff

[tgrisham]

Another thing to consider is that the sub is a very large electro-mechanical device and most require a break-in period to loosen up. I think my sub was quicker and more "tune-ful" after several weeks of play. I'm sure some of that is in my head, but it makes sense that time should improve the sound. Also, I can't even recall the number of times I moved this sub, measured the outputs, played different musical and movie tracks, and moved it again. There is a more perfect spot for the sub, and it will take alot of trial and error to find it. When you do, you will instantly know that its right. no meter will have to tell you, but the meter gets you close. Good luck and have fun!

[Dr_Hsu]

Thanks for the tips, guys. New DLP arrives in a few hours... hope to at least enjoy a few minutes of a movie with the Hsu before the kiddo goes to bed. :)

Thanks,
Jeff

Can you send me your room layout again? Indicate on your room layout where you have placed the sub.

[Iceblade]

Dr. Hsu,

I'll do that on Monday as I left the room layout drawing there, I believe. Thanks for the offer to look things over again.

Regards,
Jeff


Can you send me your room layout again? Indicate on your room layout where you have placed the sub.

[DNelms]

Dave,

I meant to ask you, do you use the 507's cutoff for the low pass or do you use the Hsu's crossover? Since my mains are NOT full range... though they are advertised as going down to 35Hz with flat response (yeah, right), I'm thinking that the gap between where the Studio 40's start losing response and the 80 Hz cutoff in my receiver might be contributing to my less than linear sounding room. Again... no measurements to date... perhaps this weekend though.

Thanks,
Jeff

Jeff

I am currently using the receiver's crossover. The crossover is set at 80 hz, with the High pass at 12 db and the low pass at 24 db. Again these are all of the standard THX settings. I have thought about adjusting the range but I am a big coward. (also I really don't know what to do) My mains are full range but they are sounding great with these settings.

Dave

[Iceblade]

Thanks again, Dave. You have a PM.

Dr. Hsu, I JUST found the JPG scan of the room drawing I previously sent you. Just let me know the best way to send it to you for further evaluation. For reference, the location in the upper right corner that is marked as "Possible Subwoofer Location" is where the VTF-3 currently resides.

Thanks,
Jeff

[Dr_Hsu]

Thanks again, Dave. You have a PM.

Dr. Hsu, I JUST found the JPG scan of the room drawing I previously sent you. Just let me know the best way to send it to you for further evaluation. For reference, the location in the upper right corner that is marked as "Possible Subwoofer Location" is where the VTF-3 currently resides.

Thanks,
Jeff

Just send it to drhsu@hsuresearch.com

[Barney1]

Well, I went and did it. After years of being on the fence for a variety of reasons, including being cash poor http://www.hsuresearch.com/forum/images/smilies/smile.gif I finally ordered the VTF-3 MKII for my 17x18x8 theater room. Having Dr. Hsu leave me a voice mail concerning placement and other concerns was pretty much the deciding factor (not counting the numerous amazing reviews and recommendations throughout the internet).

That being said... I'm already salivating in anticipation. I moved my Paradigm PW-2200 back to the downstairs family room theater where it belongs and now there is this gaping hole which needs to be filled by the Hsu.

Got a quick question concerning the use of Avia to calibrate the sub correctly. I seem to recall reading that the Avia disc was incorrectly mastered or something with regards to it's test tones and that you should calibrate all channels to 85dB instead of 75dB when using that. Is that correct? Also, how does the compensation factors for the Rat Shack SPL meter factor into the test tones? i.e. do I still just set the sub for 85dB or do I need to add an offset for the SPL level read by the meter?

Thanks guys,
Jeff

Jeff,
From what I can see from other posts that you have about the same speaker set up as I. I too just purchased a VTF-3 MK2 and so far its not too bad. I have posted this question out there and have not received too much help so far. See “Help with some Calibrating Issues…”. I was wondering your thoughts. Thanks! My AV receiver is a Rotel RSP1066 with Paradigm Studio 60s for the mains, CC470 center and ADP470 surrounds. The sub is 16 feet from the mains, right behind my listening area. I have gone through the AVIA set up, but I am a little confused on a couple of things. I have all speakers set to small with sub set to yes. My connection to the sub is from the sub out on the 1066 to the left input on the sub. Number one is what should my “crossover defeat switch be set to”; Out or IN? What should I set my crossover on the RSP1066 to? I can go from 40Hz, 60, 80, 100, 120 and off. (According to the 1066’s manual the off setting sends a full-range signal to the sub so that it can use its built-in low-pass filter. (Does my sub have one of those and should I go with it off?) It also says with it off that a 100Hz high-pass filter is activated for all small speakers. The AVIA disk is very good; I’m having a problem understanding the “warble” test to calibrate the sub’s phase. Is there a “For Dummies” version of this out there? Any help would be appreciated! I just want feel confident that I have the sub calibrated to its fullest.

[Dr_Hsu]

Jeff,
From what I can see from other posts that you have about the same speaker set up as I. I too just purchased a VTF-3 MK2 and so far its not too bad. I have posted this question out there and have not received too much help so far. See “Help with some Calibrating Issues…”. I was wondering your thoughts. Thanks! My AV receiver is a Rotel RSP1066 with Paradigm Studio 60s for the mains, CC470 center and ADP470 surrounds. The sub is 16 feet from the mains, right behind my listening area. I have gone through the AVIA set up, but I am a little confused on a couple of things. I have all speakers set to small with sub set to yes. My connection to the sub is from the sub out on the 1066 to the left input on the sub. Number one is what should my “crossover defeat switch be set to”; Out or IN? What should I set my crossover on the RSP1066 to? I can go from 40Hz, 60, 80, 100, 120 and off. (According to the 1066’s manual the off setting sends a full-range signal to the sub so that it can use its built-in low-pass filter. (Does my sub have one of those and should I go with it off?) It also says with it off that a 100Hz high-pass filter is activated for all small speakers. The AVIA disk is very good; I’m having a problem understanding the “warble” test to calibrate the sub’s phase. Is there a “For Dummies” version of this out there? Any help would be appreciated! I just want feel confident that I have the sub calibrated to its fullest.

Normally you would start out with the crossover on the su set to 'out' if your receiver's low pass filter is steep enough (24 dB/Oct). I don't know enough about the AVIA to comment on that.

[Barney1]

Normally you would start out with the crossover on the su set to 'out' if your receiver's low pass filter is steep enough (24 dB/Oct). I don't know enough about the AVIA to comment on that.
Dr. HSU,
I’m a little confused now. You mention in the STF forum that you recommend setting all speakers to small and setting the subwoofer’s crossover to ‘in’ and frequency at 90hz.