Ventriloquist in stereo mode?

[tafguy]

While I'm looking for the Ventriloquist manual which I misplaced it, I have the following question on the Ventriloquist effect?

Since I use the Ventriloquist only for movies, the Ventriloquist effect switch is always turned on. Recently, I wanted to test the Ventriloquist in stereo mode, I found out that I have to turn the switch to off so there won't be any sound coming from the center channel but only the front left/right.

And to my surprise, the Ventriloquist F/L speakers with the VTF-2 MK2 sub sound BIG. This is only my first time I listen to the Ventriloquist in stereo mode since I got it.

I understand that turning the switch on makes these tiny speakers sound like full range speakers, but in off mode, do I get any extra effect or just like speaker cables just somehow connect directly to the F/L speakers inside the Ventriloquist.

Does the Ventriloquist effect work for stereo mode too? The only reason I turned this off because I don't want sound coming from the center speaker.

I'm very surprised that listen to a couple of my own ultimate reference test CD's to test music with the Ventriloquist V-12 in stereo mode, the experience turns out very pleasant.

For testing, I recommend everyone to have all the Spheeris art work. One of the true master of this kind of music in the genre of New Age I admired because of his own diverse compositions. If they sound nice on the speaker to test, you'll know that you have found the right speakers choice.

Amazing sound from some of my favorite CD from Chris Spheeris:

Culture
Eros
Dancing with the Muse (*)

(*) Reviewed in :
http://www.soundstage.com/music/reviews/rev217.htm (http://www.soundstage.com/music/reviews/rev217.htm)

More detail on the artist can be found on the below link:

http://www.chrisspheeris.com (http://www.chrisspheeris.com)
(http://www.chrisspheeris.com)

I took me these above 3 CD albums of Chris Spheeris to convince me to buy the B&W speakers, but testing them on the Ventriloquist tiny satellites proves to produce nice sound in stereo mode though I use them only use for movies.

tafguy

[Dudley]

With the switch turned off it is just like the front L/R speakers are hooked up direct to the amp. There really is no reason to turn off the effect for stereo. The center channel just acts like a mini sub with the fronts to fill in the range from the lower limit of the front L/R to about 80 hz. Don't worry about sound coming from the center. The bass may be directional at those frequencies, but since the center is in the same plane as the fronts the effect is drastically minimized. I think it actually adds to the soundstage a little, after all two stereo speakers are often trying to convince us that some of the sound is coming from between them, so it does not hurt to actually have some sound coming from there.

Some of my observations. The VTs sound suprisingly big with the effect on and no sub. If the effect is turned off it sounds to me like something is missing even with the sub on - still sounds pretty good, but not as good. Of course with the effect on and the sub is the best of all.

[tafguy]

Dudley,

Thanks for the quick reply!

With the switch turned off it is just like the front L/R speakers are hooked up direct to the amp.


That is what I thought!


There really is no reason to turn off the effect for stereo. The center channel just acts like a mini sub with the fronts to fill in the range from the lower limit of the front L/R to about 80 hz. Don't worry about sound coming from the center. The bass may be directional at those frequencies, but since the center is in the same plane as the fronts the effect is drastically minimized. I think it actually adds to the soundstage a little, after all two stereo speakers are often trying to convince us that some of the sound is coming from between them, so it does not hurt to actually have some sound coming from there.


I'm not used to listen to music in stereo mode with sound coming from the center. One reason is that it gives me hard time to evaluate the sound from the front/left speakers. I also found that sound clarity is much better with effect off.


Some of my observations. The VTs sound suprisingly big with the effect on and no sub.


I haven't tried this with no sub. But with the effect off and an HSU sub, it does somehow sound big. But this could be due to a lot of things related on how good one's system components are. Besides sat/sub, you need also to have good DVD player and receiver.


If the effect is turned off it sounds to me like something is missing even with the sub on - still sounds pretty good, but not as good. Of course with the effect on and the sub is the best of all.


I don't have the same perception like yours. I'll give some more tests to see for the fun of it, knowing that eventually the Ventriloquist will be turned back ON for movies showtime only. Probably in HT mode, there is a big noticeable difference like you called "missing" between turn on and turn off the Ventriloquist effect.

And the nicest part of this is it takes me only 2 steps in few seconds to do the switch from stereo to home theater and vice versa:

First, turn on/off the Ventriloquist effect
Second, change the receiver mode from DD/Stereo

tafguy

[tafguy]

Before I ask some more questions, here is the current setup BOTH on my receiver for HT and Stereo mode for use with the Ventriloquist V-12.

My receiver is an old DD/DTS Pioneer VSX-509 receiver with 5.1 audio inputs for SACD/DVD-A. I got lucky because this particular receiver does indeed send signal to the dedicated subwoofer output when I switch to STEREO mode.

It also has custom configuration to set the crossover filter at 3 possible frequencies: 100hz, 150 and 200hz.
The Pioneer manual suggest when speakers are set to small and the sub is ON, it is recommended to set it to 200hz.

I myself was confused on how bass management can work on a stereo setup.

My current settings of the speakers are evidently have the speakers set to "small" so that the front speakers bass are filtered out by the receiver and sent it to the sub output. Of course in this case, the subwoofer is set as "On", so the LFE will be sent along with bass information from "small" channel.

Rechecking subwoofer's setup, there is something I'm not sure about what it says in the manual of the VTF-2 MK2 on how to use the Crossover Defeat Switch:

Here is an excerpt from the manual of the VTF-2 MK2:

"If you are using a SUBWOOFER or LFE output, you can disengage the crossover by switching it to OUT. The crossover shoud be switched it to IN when using high level inputs or two channel low level inputs"

Correct me if I'm wrong since I'm still confused and I'm not sure anymore on what the above statement says.

This seems to be my case since I'm using the LFE output from my receiver.

Now, the next part is I'm not sure is turn the crossover to IN or OUT?.

If I understand, a Crossover Defeat Switch in the IN mode means it is operational, (this part also is kind of confusing to me, since the switch is next to the power switch, which has ON/OFF, should this be labeled the same as ON/OFF instead of IN/OUT?),

So IN mode to me is ON mode and OUT mode is OFF mode. Is this true?

Now comes my question, what is the real use of the switch crossover defeat?

If I understand this correctly, would be setting the swith to IN means that the subwoofer filter is defeated?

If it is the case, that is not what I want because I rather use the subwoofer filter and not the receiver filter and miss all the greatness of the sub where the filter is variable so I can blend speakers and sub.
This is a very important subwoofer configuration because I also the sub in HT mode.

I'll will redoing more tests with some CD with vocal and important bass tracks when this will be well understood.

Dudley, I got last question for you if you are reading this:
When you says " If the effect is turned off it sounds to me like something is missing even with the sub on", I'm assuming that your surround receiver handles bass management in stereo mode too, am I right? The reason I'm asking that is to better understand the audio configuration you use, because I'm still not convinced that the Ventriloquist Center channel with the effect in ON mode sounds better when it is on OFF mode in STEREO mode. But somehow for MOVIE, it is a MUST to turn the Ventriloquist to ON.

Any help is greatly appreciated!

tafguy

[Dudley]

Tafguy

Yes my reciever has bass management. I have all speakers set to small and the crossover set to 80 hz. I also have the crossover on the sub set to out. Out means you are using the crossover that is "out" of the sub and in the reciever. In means you are using the crossover "in" the sub. So if you want to use the bass management of the reciever set the crossover to out.

I would also set the crossover in the reciever to 100 hz in your case. If it is set to 200 hz it basically defeats the ventriliquist effect. If you set it to 100 hz then you should see a startling difference when you turn the ventriliquist mode off and on.

[tafguy]

Tafguy

Yes my reciever has bass management. I have all speakers set to small and the crossover set to 80 hz. I also have the crossover on the sub set to out. Out means you are using the crossover that is "out" of the sub and in the reciever. In means you are using the crossover "in" the sub. So if you want to use the bass management of the reciever set the crossover to out.

I would also set the crossover in the reciever to 100 hz in your case. If it is set to 200 hz it basically defeats the ventriliquist effect. If you set it to 100 hz then you should see a startling difference when you turn the ventriliquist mode off and on.

Thanks Dudley, which HSU sub are you using in your configuration?

Also what made you prefer the receiver's filter for bass management over the sub filter?

Should the sub filter better than any receiver's filter due to its variable frequency tuning?.

Are you using this setting for HT too or you turn the crossover defeat switch to IN in HT mode?

To me, crossover frequency preset by manufacturer is not variable and user is stuck with few possible frequency settings. But may be I'm wrong here, because if one finds out that the bass performance is fine with the receiver's crossover, why bother using the sub? Any how, it is good that HSU has provided us this feature because without it, the combination of these 2 filters : the receivers's and the sub's will probably give a bad sound if their steepness are to high.

I get a better idea now on your configuration to understand your own observations. Without a sub, the center channel with the effects ON could play an important factor on bass management like you say "center acts like mini sub".

But have you tried a similar configuration like mine using the sub crossover instead and turn off the Ventriloquist effect?

This is so far my best choice in STEREO mode.

Well this part of configuration is more clear now for me with receiver using subwoofer output? Those who don't have sub output have to rely on other alternative for bass management like I did on my NAD 320BEE stereo amplifier using the pre-out/mains-in to send signal to the sub in stereo mode.

Anyhow, I'll write back doing more tests on different music genre. But anyone could share their own experience here on how they use the Ventriloquist in STEREO mode. You will be surprised that if you can't afford a STEREO receiver and a new set of bookshelf speakers/monitors, free alternative like using Ventriloquist in STEREO mode is worth a try.

tafguy

[Dudley]

I have an STF-2.

Generally it is best to use the bass management in the reciever because it effects all of your speakers and where the bass goes. The crossover in the sub only controls the sub. Of course if you don't have good management in your reciever, or just use stereo mode, or just think it sounds better, there is no problem with using the subs crossover - that is why it is there.

[tafguy]

I have an STF-2.

Generally it is best to use the bass management in the reciever because it effects all of your speakers and where the bass goes.

I will surely try this mode out to see how this will sound. I never thougth to use the receiver's x-over.

Probably bass management is more effective in the receiver due to its internal operation at line level. High-end receiver will perform much better then. But mine does not have frequency at 80hz but 100hz, 150hz or 200hz. Although it is recommended to set at 200hz, I will set it at 100hz to be able to use the Ventriloquist effect.

No wonder I did not get this part to fully experiment it. But it is not too late to try it out.

[tafguy]

Generally it is best to use the bass management in the reciever because it effects all of your speakers and where the bass goes. The crossover in the sub only controls the sub.


Dudley, I did give the try using the receiver's x-over and set the sub's x-over to OUT position.

Guess what?

I found out during system re-evaluation that using the receiver's x-over results to a louder and tighter bass than using the sub's one.

Of course, I still like it with the Ventriloquist effects set to OFF in STEREO mode.

Now in HT mode, using the sub's x-over to OUT to use the receiver's x-over set to 100hz with the Ventriloquist effects set to ON. I checked out the Volume 1 of "Kill Bill" DVD and tested out the 2 intenses scenes of "Chapter 2" + "We'll have a knife fight" and "You must be GoGo", I can't believe how much it sounds better than using the sub's x-over. Of course, don't expect too much for a small surround system but the treble and the low bass from the sub is incredible excellent. Mid-range is average. To end my quick evaluation, I put on the "We were soldiers" DVD and tested out the "Broken Arrow" scene and I was again surprised by the excellent intensity of bullets/air plane flying over in all directions delivering bass you do really feel from my sofa.

I thought I had the right setup until now. But now, I'm pretty sure it is the correct setup I'll use.

[tafguy]

One might ask me why bother testing or even using the Vents in stereo mode that I may end up not using them often as I do with my other music system designed only for that purpose.

Well, while this is true, the reason I'm doing this is more for FUN.

For the tests, due too my music taste, I shut off the center channel effect switch because I want the front Vents to have good imaging.

While the Vents sound so good in movies, do they also sound nice in stereo mode?

So to find out how it measuses up to my liking the Vents on music, I select some of the tracks which do have pretty nice bass I used to listen and put them to test.

The bass kick-in sometimes very strong, felt on these album just prove that if your system does not have a sub, you are not listen to music the way it should be heard.


Artist/Album


Country:

I happen to like a lot Faith Hill's and Lisa Brokop's work, so I tested more of her music than the others. Should also hear how Raul perform in Today's album. Lovely!

Faith Hill/Faith

This Kiss
Love Ain't Like That

Faith Hill/Take me as I am
Take me as I am
Piece of My Heart


Faith Hill/Breathe

Breathe (*)


Faith Hill/It matters to me
It matters to me (*)
Bed of Roses (*)

Lisa Brokop/Every Little Girl's Dream
One of Those Nights
Not Here in My Arms


Lisa Brokop/Lisa Brokop
Before He Kissed Me (*)
West of Crazy (*)
She Can't Save Him


The Mavericks/Best of the Mavericks
What a Crying Shame (*)
All That Heaven Will Allow
Here Comes the Rain (*)
Dance the Night Away (*)


Raul Malo/Today

I Said I Love You (*)
Are We Almost There?
Takes Two to Tango (*)
I See You (*)

R&B:

Alicia Keys/The Diary of Alicia Keys
Harlem's Nocturne
Karma (*)
Diary
When You Really Love Someone (*)
So Simple (*)

Flamenco Guitar:

Armik Rubia's guitar music blew me away with its bass that I never experienced or felt before and the VTF-2 MK2 sub delivers.

Armik/Rubia

Rubia
Maldonado (*)
Seychelles
Veil of desires (*)


Armik/Malaga

Andalucia La Luna
Reflections Of Paradise (*)
Until Next Time (*) Awesome acoustic guitar
Moonlight Fantasy

Opera:

Pavarotti And Friends

Panis Angelicus for tenor, organ, harp, cello & double-bass
Sentinel
Rigoletto, opera, La Donna e Mobile (*)

Pavarotti And Friends 2
Chitarra Romana (*)
Traviata: Brindisi (*)
Notte 'e Piscatore

Instrumental:

Diego Modena & Jean-Philippe Audin /Song of Ocarina

Song of Ocarina (*)
Moonlight Reggae (*)
Girl from Key Biscayne
Ocarina Burning (*)

In conclusion, no matter what I play, the Vents are really not too bad to use in stereo mode, the vocals and instrumental from these above albums are more than above average to good. But coupled with an HSU sub, it does rock it will be handy to use it in the stereo mode if you happen to have only one single system for both HT and music. While the Vents have its weakness in definition, bass and some clarity I can differentiate when listen to high-end system, for the money, the Vents deserved a closer serious look in one's HTiB wish list.

However, let's agree that the Vents alone will not be able to deliver that greatness of bass mentionned in so many professional reviews.
You do need to get a sub to complete the HT package. Indeed, the gap between listening a system without a sub and one with a sub is really huge. And that gap is more widen if the sub is not powerful and musical enough to use with the Vents, you will also miss low bass when it is is supposed to be heard during soundstage, then you are likely not be fully judge how good a music album is.


(*) Excellent in my own flavor only, may differ with others, contents of these test tracks I enjoyed testing enough tremendous low bass enough to impress the most skeptical one.

That's all, folks, this concludes my appreciation of the Ventriloquists and VTF-2 Mk2 in Stereo Mode! And let me know if you feel the same way if you use them in stereo mode with HSU sub.

tafguy

[tafguy]

There really is no reason to turn off the effect for stereo. The center channel just acts like a mini sub with the fronts to fill in the range from the lower limit of the front L/R to about 80 hz.

You're right on this, if I based on the lab frequency data of the Vents measured in article of Sound & Vision (October 2004), the center channel handles frequency down to 80hz.

With the switch turned off it is just like the front L/R speakers are hooked up direct to the amp.


If not using the center, lab frequency data shows my L/F satellites handle only down to 125Hz. And this does makes sense to have better sound with the Vents effect turned ON. That's why movies sound are incredibly good with Vents in this mode.

[tafguy]

With the switch turned off it is just like the front L/R speakers are hooked up direct to the amp. There really is no reason to turn off the effect for stereo. The center channel just acts like a mini sub with the fronts to fill in the range from the lower limit of the front L/R to about 80 hz. Don't worry about sound coming from the center. The bass may be directional at those frequencies, but since the center is in the same plane as the fronts the effect is drastically minimized. I think it actually adds to the soundstage a little, after all two stereo speakers are often trying to convince us that some of the sound is coming from between them, so it does not hurt to actually have some sound coming from there.

Some of my observations. The VTs sound suprisingly big with the effect on and no sub. If the effect is turned off it sounds to me like something is missing even with the sub on - still sounds pretty good, but not as good. Of course with the effect on and the sub is the best of all.


Dudley, I have to give you credits for this. During my mini review of the Vents in stereo mode, I did use the Vents with the effects off. But since the day before yesterday, I forgot to turn the Vents effect off, so I did have some listening of one of my favorite New Age CD from one of the bests out there that I now have most of his albums.

So, now I understand the real effect of this, because since there are no TV screen to watch, you can easily differentiate a big difference. And it did surprise me that the front sats sound sound much better with the center channel driving the front sats to lower frequency response. There is no way they match the B&W VM1's done in other review, but somehow with the center effect, they are not that bad. I'll bet for most of today's more expensive HtiB package, it will be hard to know whether the Vent's sats are playing or an another more expensive sats package. This is why lower frequency response give better sound. And specially that album from Chris Spheris titled "EROS", the 1,2,7 tracks have made me reverify whether or not I was listening to my B&W VM1's. There is obvious directional bass from the center but the front sats seems to give better sound in music mode, at least at my perception.

Link below you may want to check the music's tune. Strangely, all my deep bass CD, Chris Spheeris is one that has some powerful bass that I have to lower the receiver's volume to avoid distortion though I have rechecked calibration with care. Any how, if you have not known Chris Spheeris, then his music deserved a careful look. New Age lover, you will be amazed by the beauty of his music.


http://www.mp3.com/albums/262736/summary.html

When you think you know well, but in reality you don't unless you try and skeptical at first and doing the traditional way, I underestimated the power of HSU's magical center channel effect.

And let me know how the sub performs if you want to try Chris Spheeris's Eros CD. There is a lot of CD's I bought I rarely use, but this CD is one of my test CD's I always use it for speakers and sub audition. You will also see if you speakers/sub will sound good. And if it does not, time to buy better speakers and better subs.

[hifi_homeboy]

Chris Spheeris- I listen to some of his songs. Sounds really relaxing.
:)

[Dudley]

Thanks Tafguy - I'll have to give it a listen.

[tafguy]

Thanks Tafguy - I'll have to give it a listen.
Hope you will, this is really good music. Let's me explain why.

On an average stereo system, Spheeris's music is already awesome but you can't appreciate in depth Spheeris's music and how much bass speakers would be able to reproduce if they are not decent speakers.

On better system without subwoofers like my B&W 601dms3 using NAD's equipment, you can clearly see how good speakers can handle Spheeris's powerful tunes with much detailed and at the same time put your speakers to test to see whether or not they are good at producing acceptable bass because you will know it right away!

Though the B&W 601dms3 do have enough good bass but when you add HSU subwoofer, man, music takes an another dimension, that I have come to appreciate the artist's work.

I have to warn that it is also hard to test a system with good music. This is why you have to know the tune well and how it is played on your system to better compare with other speakers/sub. And if you happen to like Eros, the below two are must own albums that any New Age fan should have. I highly recommend to anyone who likes instrumental music and this is where Spheeris plays at best that I know of.

Disc description summary
http://www.mp3.com/albums/412976/summary.html

Disc description summary
http://www.mp3.com/albums/162851/summary.html