VTF-3 MKII with turbo to the VTF-3HO

[daman4799]

I'm not sure if this has been asked before. How would the VTF-3 MKII with turbo compare to the VTF-3HO without turbo?

Thanks, Daman

[Michael Bain]

Turbo is just a mod to the porting, so only closest to port tuning will it come into play. Who knows how it would compare overall to the HO.

[JonnyOzero3]

I'm guessing that because of the new cabinet, driver, and amp designs, there should be some positive sound quality improvements with the -3HO. I have no idea how large they will be, but I doubt the good doctor puts this much time and effort into a project for a lateral move performance-wise ;) But, I'm just guessing, since I haven't heard either sub.

Anyhow, maybe peter can chime in with some comments.

[Pete_Hsu]

This is a great question, Daman. I would say that a VTF-3 Mk2 with turbo would move at least as much low-turbulent air as a VTF-3 HO with a port plug. Low bass performance with the VTF-3 Mk2 + turbo should be excellent, with much less port noise than in maximum extension mode with a single 3" port open. However, the VTF-3 HO does have a newer driver, a more powerful amplifier, and a larger enclosure. So there are several different variables in play when comparing overall bass performance. The VTF-3 Mk2 has some advantages in that it is available now while still having upgradeable bass characteristics, has a lower cost, and takes up less floorspace. The VTF-3 HO has some advantages in that it is based on all of our newest technology, has a pre-order discount, and has the higher performance potential.

Sincerely,

[daman4799]

Thanks Peter,

So another words you're telling me flip a coin. I would say for my size room a VTF-3 MKII is plenty.The room is 12x18x8. When and if I add the turbo I might have some walls left standing LOL. Thanks for the explanation!

Later, Daman


This is a great question, Daman. I would say that a VTF-3 Mk2 with turbo would move at least as much low-turbulent air as a VTF-3 HO with a port plug. Low bass performance with the VTF-3 Mk2 + turbo should be excellent, with much less port noise than in maximum extension mode with a single 3" port open. However, the VTF-3 HO does have a newer driver, a more powerful amplifier, and a larger enclosure. So there are several different variables in play when comparing overall bass performance. The VTF-3 Mk2 has some advantages in that it is available now while still having upgradeable bass characteristics, has a lower cost, and takes up less floorspace. The VTF-3 HO has some advantages in that it is based on all of our newest technology, has a pre-order discount, and has the higher performance potential.

Sincerely,

[Pete_Hsu]

You are most welcome, Daman!

The neat thing is that both sides of the coin are good! :D

[Kjohn]

And if you have two VTF-3 MKII's the output should match or exceed one HO with Turbo If I am correct.

[JimLely]

And if you have two VTF-3 MKII's the output should match or exceed one HO with Turbo If I am correct.

If you are correct than the HO with turbo should match the discontinued TN1220 (at least at 20Hz). Here's why: Howard Ferstler in an audio periodical measured 100 db maximum output @20Hz for one VTF-3. Adding a second should increase maximum output to 106db which is exactly what Howard measured for one TN1220 at 20Hz.

Regards,

Jim

[chucklee]

If you are correct than the HO with turbo should match the discontinued TN1220 (at least at 20Hz). Here's why: Howard Ferstler in an audio periodical measured 100 db maximum output @20Hz for one VTF-3. Adding a second should increase maximum output to 106db which is exactly what Howard measured for one TN1220 at 20Hz.

Regards,

Jim

Hmmm... so what would the theoretical output be with one TN1220 and one VTF3-Mk2 with turbo? (My current set-up, sans the turbo).

[JimLely]

Hmmm... so what would the theoretical output be with one TN1220 and one VTF3-Mk2 with turbo? (My current set-up, sans the turbo).

Need to know how much the turbo will increase MO for VTF-3 at 20 Hz.


Jim


PS The Ferstler article was using the 250 watt amp with the TN1220. He felt the output limitation was due to the amp. In other words with a bigger amp the TN1220's MO would be greater than 106db @20Hz

[jmprader]

If you are correct than the HO with turbo should match the discontinued TN1220 (at least at 20Hz). Here's why: Howard Ferstler in an audio periodical measured 100 db maximum output @20Hz for one VTF-3. Adding a second should increase maximum output to 106db which is exactly what Howard measured for one TN1220 at 20Hz.Not to move off topic, but...according to an unofficial and unchallenged post elsewhere on the forum, I saw a claim that 1 VTF-3HO is "equivalent" to 2 TN1220HO's...If that's true, maybe Dr. Hsu should include extra sheet rock screws or at least post a damage disclaimer on the box...for those who order two http://www.hsuresearch.com/forum/images/smilies/eek.gif, foundation straps may be required.

[Pete_Hsu]

Dear Keith,

And if you have two VTF-3 MKII's the output should match or exceed one HO with Turbo If I am correct.

We have not done final testing yet on these configurations, but I would say that dual VTF-3 Mk2 with turbo should hold up pretty well against a single VTF-3 HO turbo. The VTF-3 HO will probably extend a bit lower though.

Sincerely,

[Pete_Hsu]

Good evening Jim,

If you are correct than the HO with turbo should match the discontinued TN1220 (at least at 20Hz). Here's why: Howard Ferstler in an audio periodical measured 100 db maximum output @20Hz for one VTF-3. Adding a second should increase maximum output to 106db which is exactly what Howard measured for one TN1220 at 20Hz.

Regards,

Jim

The VTF-3HO without turbo should easily at the minimum match the capabilities of the TN1220HO, while also extending a bit lower. VTF-3HO with turbo should be comparable to dual TN1220HO in the low bass.

Sincerely,

[Pete_Hsu]

Hmmm... so what would the theoretical output be with one TN1220 and one VTF3-Mk2 with turbo? (My current set-up, sans the turbo).

Great question chuck. I would say that a VTF-3 Mk2 with turbo will probably at least meet or exceed the low bass capability of a TN1220HO. So your setup with turbo would be at least as good as dual TN1220HO's.

Cheers

[Sorny]

Great question chuck. I would say that a VTF-3 Mk2 with turbo will probably at least meet or exceed the low bass capability of a TN1220HO. So your setup with turbo would be at least as good as dual TN1220HO's.

Cheers

At least as good as 2 TN1220HO subs means a whole heck of a lot of SQ and SPL! I don't know that even the most jaded bass-head wouldn't be happy with that sort of output. My twins (pair of TN1220HO's) are quite potent in SPL, but also in the far more important SQ dept.

Sorny

[JimLely]

Good evening Jim,



The VTF-3HO without turbo should easily at the minimum match the capabilities of the TN1220HO, while also extending a bit lower. VTF-3HO with turbo should be comparable to dual TN1220HO in the low bass.

Sincerely,

Hi Peter,

So in Howard Ferstler's setting you'd then expect 112db MO SPL at 20Hz with 2 TN1220s. As a corollary you'd thus expect 112db SPL @20Hz for the VTF-3HO with turbo. Does that seem reasonable?

Regards,

Jim

[Lwang]

PS The Ferstler article was using the 250 watt amp with the TN1220. He felt the output limitation was due to the amp. In other words with a bigger amp the TN1220's MO would be greater than 106db @20Hz
According to Keele's review of a 1998 vintage 1220:

I plotted the TN1220HO's short-term peak power input and sound output (Fig. 4) from 12.5 Hz up instead of from the 20 Hz I've used for other subwoofers. The Hsu's peak power input capability starts at a fairly high 150 watts at 12.5 Hz, then rises through 660 Watts at 16 Hz to a high of 1.35 kW at 20 Hz, then stays at about 1 to 1.2 kW from 25 to 75 Hz. At higher frequencies, the input power rises rapidly, reaching 6,550 watts at 200 Hz.

That means the woofer of the 1220 should be able to produce 7 dB more output with the proper amplification.

[JimLely]

According to Keele's review of a 1998 vintage 1220:

I plotted the TN1220HO's short-term peak power input and sound output (Fig. 4) from 12.5 Hz up instead of from the 20 Hz I've used for other subwoofers. The Hsu's peak power input capability starts at a fairly high 150 watts at 12.5 Hz, then rises through 660 Watts at 16 Hz to a high of 1.35 kW at 20 Hz, then stays at about 1 to 1.2 kW from 25 to 75 Hz. At higher frequencies, the input power rises rapidly, reaching 6,550 watts at 200 Hz.

That means the woofer of the 1220 should be able to produce 7 dB more output with the proper amplification.

Yes, that article motivated my purchase of my first TN1220 (I now have two). This was such an incredible subwoofer (except for its top-heavy-ness), and so reasonably priced especially w/o the amp (everybody has an extra amp floating around). So why was it discontinued? (I've heard it said that a more powerful version of the TN1220 is due out, but that doesn't explain the early discontinuation).

[Michael Bain]

Ferstler is now retired from reviewing subwoofers. TN1220 will go down in history as one of the best he ever measured, especially for the money.

[Pete_Hsu]

Good evening Jim,

Hi Peter,

So in Howard Ferstler's setting you'd then expect 112db MO SPL at 20Hz with 2 TN1220s. As a corollary you'd thus expect 112db SPL @20Hz for the VTF-3HO with turbo. Does that seem reasonable?

Regards,

Jim

Very difficult to say, as Mr. Ferstler's results are only valid in his room and using his methods. However, I would definitely expect significantly more subjectively clean output at 20Hz with a VTF-3 HO turbo in comparision to a TN1220HO. Mr. Ferstler tested the TN1220HO using just the 250 watt class AB amplifier, and it performed really well, holding it's own with the latest and greatest cylinder subwoofers available today! The VTF-3 HO turbo in comparison to that TN1220HO test unit has double the port flow area, double the amplifier power, newer porting with huge flares, and a newer driver.

Sincerely,

[JimLely]

Ferstler is now retired from reviewing subwoofers. TN1220 will go down in history as one of the best he ever measured, especially for the money.

Isn't Howard still doing reviews for Sensible Sound? Or is David Rich exclusively doing speaker reviews? Howard is still doing music reviews in Dec/Jan 06 Sensible Sound.

[JonnyOzero3]

The VTF-3 HO turbo in comparison to that TN1220HO test unit has double the port flow area, double the amplifier power, newer porting with huge flares, and a newer driver.

Mmmmmm.......(((gurgle)))........

Wha....Huh?(((slurp)))....Oh, I was drooling.

A lot. :p