vtf suprises....thats a good thing!

[gchon]

I hope you guys are closely watching what they are doing over there at the other on-line subwoofer maker. (moderator- let me know if im breaking the rules and you can delete this post) they just released their pb2-isd sub at what seems like a killer price along with a pb1-plus. From the forums, it looks like ther pb2-plus hit the mark.

now the big question is hopefully you guys can TOP them in all aspects- overall output, dynamics, ability to go low and cost factor! The doctor created this market, dont let them take it from you! Either those guys are truly raising the bar, or just doing a damn good job marketing.....either way there is some perception that these guys are the ones to beat. If anyone can do it, Im sure the good doctor can!

I think something needs to come out ASAP as the new generation of HT internet customers have very short memories (or maybe even no memories since most are newbies). The VTF3 has been out what seems like ages without improvements besides cosmetics. Its the sign of the times- product lifecycles are getting shorter and shorter and one cant rest on ones past achievements no matter how great.

While vertical integration through different channels is great, there needs to be some grandstanding that you guys make the loudest, lowest and most bang for the buck subs out there. Once that statement sub is out, have the feature set trickle down to the lower line subs. You will be able to ride this wave for all it's worth. Without this, your company can keep the steady growth and continue to milk the cash cows but surely cant expect any exponential growth.

[tomes]

I agree. I think the VTF-3 still looks awesome, but maybe it needs to be more competitively priced, since the new BP2 sub,with dual 12" woofers will cost only 50 more than the VTF3.

Then you could perhaps create a VTF4 that can compete with their BP2 and a VTF5 that can compete with their BP2 plus line :)

[Ddavidson]

I think the VTF-3 still looks awesome, but maybe it needs to be more competitively priced, since the new BP2 sub,with dual 12" woofers will cost only 50 more than the VTF3.

As a proud VTF owner I agree, the price crunch of being competitive or uncompetitive has arrived. The VTF should like the STF probably be made OS to dramatically cut the retail price. The VTF-3 really in a direct selling market should only be $600 retail. That is if it is to be competitive with other offerings that are also closing in fast on being much better at the marketeering side of things.

I think the sticking point is going to be the profit needed in the future, mainly because of the radical change to the Hsu Research want to make to their business plan. The biggest issue seems to be that Hsu (as predicted in the rumor mill) wants to go into retail B&M dealerships.

Which we can all clearly see by them going to places like Cedia which is the home of massive profit margin equipment sold at retail stores and via custom installers. The whole issue is that these Cedia people talk 50%+ margins. As a consumer that means bad news because the profits need to be bigger to feed a third party. I do not know about most people but I can live without having to pay a dealers rent for the sake of saving $250 on one subwoofer purchace.

SVS on the other hand seem to be staying and serving the more consumer friendly pricing done via selling as a direct market product.
At 18"x 25"x 28" (115 pounds), three variable tuned; 3" flared porting (16Hz, 20Hz or 25Hz) , twin downfiring 12" woofers, a 600 watt Bash amp selling t $899, it certainly looks excellent value.

Lets hope the cubed Hsu flagship arrives soon or else the retail pricing by having to go into a B&M dealer to buy a Hsu subwoofer might be more than todays Hsu buyer finds attractive (or can even afford). We already have enough Velodynes, Krells and Meridians giving big enough profit to dealers. Why let Hsu join that pack of dollar gougers. Sorry to say but I like many others I am sure will fail to keep buying Hsu if it heads that way.

I never thought I would say it, but I am now forced to look at the options because the gap is growing and you guys seem to be on the wrong retail track on these future issues (such as Flagships and B&M dealers). I love performance at the best value, not cheap and nasty or charge the earth like most retail gear.


Ddavidson

[tomes]

While I think it should have a lower price, I think 600 is optimistic. From what I can hear, the VTF is superior to the SVS PB1ISD which sells for 600. The fact that the VTF3 allows for lower extension is also a differentiator.

I would say that 750 is more fair - and of course, HSU pays for shipping, as opposed to other sub-makers.

[Ddavidson]

From what I can hear, the VTF is superior to the SVS PB1ISD which sells for 600. The fact that the VTF3 allows for lower extension is also a differentiator.

I would say that 750 is more fair - and of course, HSU pays for shipping, as opposed to other sub-makers

Yes it is a better sub, but Hsu is still having to go offshore to produce the price equivelent sub the STF-12 (22Hz). To me its obvious that the STF-12 at $610 will kill the sales of the VTF-3 at $850. The variable tuning is not worth $240 to most people. In fact I bet 98% of people use the VTF-3 in deep bass mode 100% of the time.

You have to remember that SVS is made here, where if they went offshore they could save a bundle and manufacture their subwoofers even cheaper. This being much cheaper can be seen with Hsu Research and the STF series. The VTF-3 at the very most should be $700 retail all the time to be competitive and as low as $600 on special. The whole issue is being competitive and not going into high profit B&M dealers would save them a fortune. Giving an un-needed third party a big margin for being a demonstrator is anti consumer in my book.

Ddavidson

[Audio72]

If it wasn't for Hsu subwoofers, SVS wouldn't exist!
;)

[gchon]

I am not knocking Hsu at all. If his market research says that he can make more more money through B&M then more power to him- in fact he may be right. We all know that the customers of e-tailers are generally more savy than the average B&M customer and the ones who post on-line even more so. Look at the financial success of Bose, enough said. Having said that, he may be able to deliver a lot less and make even more, it will all depend on the effectivity of his distribution channels though. If all this is true, more power to him!

For the rest of us though, it doesnt boad well in terms of competition and choice. Just my 2cents. I hope I am wrong and Hsu can keep all of us happy and make tons of money at the same time!

[Ddavidson]

If it wasn't for Hsu subwoofers, SVS wouldn't exist!

It was the inspiration that is for sure. But the big market share was left open to them because of some poor marketeering and a lineup that had extremely large holes in the gaps between the few models on offer. As far as many people can see the jumping from direct market into being a B&M dealer will end up making the Hsu brand another "also ran" brand because all decent dealers demand 50%+ margins, and even if they do not get 50%+ right now, rest assured that they definitely will after a period of time. I personally have some friends working in a/v retail, and so I have seen the consumer horror in black and white not just as an internet rumor.

The only thing left for Hsu to do by going B&M is to increase the retail prices to pay for the third parties margin. Remember that it is "us the consumer" who will actually pay the retailer his demanded profit. As far as I am concerned we have more than enough high margin brands available via B&M stores IMO.


We all know that the customers of e-tailers are generally more savy than the average B&M customer and the ones who post on-line even more so. Look at the financial success of Bose, enough said.


Yes that seems to be the case. Online people are seekers of the best value and quality. Most onliners are not fools like average B&M Joe's because they study the market by doing online in depth product research. Which is why direct market Hsu and Svs have so far sold so well. This online shopping is the real future for most people, even B&M Joe types as they are very likely not to have known just how much money they could have saved by buying from a direct marketeer online.

My bet is these people are the people who would want to save as much as they could. I bet most are ill in a position to pay a third part a decent extra profit for displaying and demonstrating a sub they could have purchaced for much less online and directly sold by the manufacturer.

That was the founding reason why I originally choose Hsu because it offered all of the good things, but it would seem that now they have failed to develop in response to direct competition. Instead prefering to ditch the market and chase the B&M customer who is less knowledgable and much easier to fleece. Bose (as you say) have proven its easy to sell poor equipment for high prices in a B&M store because the customers have little to no knowledge of what they are being sold. What a crazy world to trust the word of a sales guy, but thats retail.

I guess I just really thought Hsu Research stood for more than just a quick fleece and falling into the age old trap of selling a big fishing story. That is why I am very disappointed. The opportunity for more profit and market share was clearly missed. It would seem like they have simply thrown in the towel at the first decent sign of competition and just sold out to the highest bidder who could make their lives simpler. But to me its a cop out and one I thought they (Hsu) would kick major booty in, when this competition first showed up. But its clear now it was too hard and far too much work.

Better to take the easy path by dropping the ball in the direct market and move into a more Bose, Levinson, Krell, Revel, Runco, Velodyne like mode. (i.e. end up paying a third party 50%++ margins to sell your gear no matter how good or bad it is)

To me it is all a clear sign of deserting the market that made you, yet the truth is that Hsu probably never got past 20% of the true potential of being a direct seller because someone has feed the it is easier going into retail gouge mode than offering value by being a direct seller.

I have discussed this B&M vs direct issue at the Harmonic Discord forum many times.

It looks like Hsu has now clearly decided that its consumers should pay to feed a third party.

Which IMO is a big shame as it was not needed or wanted by most who liked the direct cut out the middle man approach. Its just more expense for us the buyer.


Ddavidson

[JohnnyMalone]

Ddavidson, take a deep breath and relax for a second!!! You are really overreacting here!

Let us think through this situation very carefully.

Hsu Research will be releasing the STF-12 very soon. This should beat the pants off the SVS PB1-ISD in almost every way (and I am sure you agree), for the same price! The STF-10 and STF-8 will break new ground in the BARGAIN SUBWOOFER arena! All this talk about Hsu's prices rising is false. There is no evidence showing this, and if anything Hsu is coming out with even MORE AFFORDABLE products!

Now what we have all been waiting for: A FLAGSHIP HSU product!!! Sasha already makes it clear on this forum that Hsu WILL BE WORKING on a flagship line! The VTF series will evolve into THESE flagship products! Anyone who knows Dr. Hsu's products will know that this will more than exceed expectations, compared to ALL the competition!

Give Hsu a few months. For crying out loud, they are trying to introduce some new products that set new standards for performance/price! They will be selling these very soon, and you can bet that Hsu will work on flagship products from there.

I do not understand why everyone is so excited about the PB2-ISD. More or less this product is just adding quantity to their PB1-ISD! The HSU woofer is also superior to the ISD woofer! Look at both woofers and note the magnet presence on the HSU VTF-3! 20 pounds HSU says! If you want to equalize frequency response between one VTF-3 and one PB2-ISD, you would AT LEAST need to plug one or two of the PB2-ISD's ports. Even in the "16-Hertz tuning", the PB2-ISD might not be a match for the VTF-3 in rounded musical sound and flat frequency response! With both ports wide open, the VTF-3 has NO PROBLEM staying flat at 20-Hz in frequency response!

Let us examine the other new products in SVS lineup. The PB1-Ultra is cannibalized by the PB2-ISD! The B4+ is cannibalized by the two PB2+'s! You pay more money for less performance and wood! Does not sound like a bargain to me! The SVS pricing structure is completely out of whack, and the rest of their lineup is DEVALUED at every turn!

Let us now look at the "FLAGSHIP" dual driver solutions from SVS, the B4+ and PB2+. You need to pay $2500 for a B4+ that includes NO AMP and NO CROSSOVER! You need to pay $1250-$2500 and up for the GIGANTIC PB2+ or B4+ that CANNOT hit references of bass at 16-Hertz! You need to pay all that money for products that may not remain as flat in response or as musically rounded as a $800 Hsu! It is easy to make a high output product above 25-Hertz, much much harder to make one above 16-Hertz while being musically accurate too!

If you wanted a flagship available NOW that can approach reference levels of bass at 16-Hertz, you would need to look at SERVODRIVE or ACOUSTIC VISIONS EVEREST. The SVS boxes just cannot do this.

SVS is very very good at hyping their products and creating buzz. They use strong language and overly bold claims to give this effect! The SVS parts are actually from CANADA. HSU stated on THIS FORUM that the NEW HSU BASH amps will have an advantage over SVS, but HSU does not want to give away too many details for fear that the competition will rip them off! Hsu WILL ALWAYS HAVE THE DESIGN ADVANTAGE over SVS because of HIS EXPERTISE! HSU is a very very smart man, and his FLAGSHIP products will NOT disappoint!

In time, in time we will see!

[Lwang]

I don't think Hsu wnted to go into the B&M market because he wanted to sell out. He probably doesn't have the marketing savyness of the typical snake oil salesman that are out there, whether in the B&M shop or floating all over the net. So he figured he'll hand off the job to those people directly while forsaking part of the profit.

And let's not villify all manufactures that goes toward the B&M path. It is fortunate for us that subwoofers is a market in which there is an online presence, but I would shut out other brands just for the sake of getting the best bang for the buck via online brands.

One example, all the hype by the Outlaw people about their processor, being designed by some high end guru and such, it turns out to be cheaper sister model to Sherbourn that were designed and mfg'd in the far east. To boot, it was 2 years late and filled with bugs.

[JohnnyMalone]

The VTF-3 is still AS GOOD A BARGAIN as it was from the DAY it was introduced!

HSU has FREE SHIPPING, so a VTF-3 is $850 SHIPPED! A PB2-ISD is $950 AFTER shipping, so 12% MORE MONEY, it is GIGANTIC, for a product that almost certainly will have a LESS MUSICAL, LESS ACCURATE sound than the VTF-3! For $920 INCLUDING SHIPPING, we can buy a b-stock VTF-3R that might be slightly better than a regular VTF-3 because of design! With sweet GLOSSY-BLACK ENDCAPS and BEAUTIFUL ROSEWOOD, that is a BARGAIN price compared to ALL the competition!

[Ddavidson]

All this talk about Hsu's prices rising is false. There is no evidence showing this, and if anything Hsu is coming out with even MORE AFFORDABLE products!

Who is talking about todays pricing? The fact is that as my friends who work in mass market stores have said that their stores do not even look at low profit brands no matter how good the product is. Retailers demand large profit and they will simply not sell it unless it has such a profit margin. They will force Hsu to give them that profit margin or they will not carry and sell Hsu. Its a position that Hsu might think it can change, but these type of guys (retail) sell things like Bose, so morals about SQ and profit gouging are not even on their deck of cards.

For me that stinks as I as the consumer would rather split the extra wholesale price difference with the manufacturer who is the brain and the deserved benefactor of the profit. The retailer is a not necessary expense to me the consumer when a 30 day return period and my own room acoustics are the only way to buy. What sounds good in a dealers is in no way indicative of how it sounds in your own acoustical enviroment. Also the high pressure sales dribble is totally the opposite to the relaxed enviroment of what is a 30 day in home trial. Retailers really bring nothing worth their demanded profit share. The consumer suffers the WHOLE extra cost of having dead wood in the transaction.


The STF-10 and STF-8 will break new ground in the BARGAIN SUBWOOFER arena!

But I really shudder to think just how cheap SVS could make the PB2+ ($1199), PB2-ISD ($899), PB1-ISD ($599) if they like Hsu got them made in China.

Lets face it the tube subs are not of any interest to most "normal people" due to WAF and the fact that a toilet roll or garbage can looks silly in most decor's. In truth most normal people only see Svs as only having three subs and Hsu as only having two subs (of any interest).


This should beat the pants off the SVS PB1-ISD in almost every way (and I am sure you agree)

I am 100% sure it will.
But lets see what happens once retailers start putting out their hands for a bigger slice of the pie. The relativity will dramatically change and you will soon be forced to compare the STF-12 to a different model due to forced price increases by being in retail.

Its the law of the retail jungle.


Hsu WILL ALWAYS HAVE THE DESIGN ADVANTAGE over SVS because of HIS EXPERTISE! HSU is a very very smart man, and his FLAGSHIP products will NOT disappoint!

For many years I have had and continue to own several Hsu subwoofers. So I know all to well the ups and downs of the Hsu brand of products and I think he (Dr Hsu) is a true genius with getting his designs to actually work correctly as advertised.

Most subwoofers and speakers (as you mention) are not well designed, but as you know we are not talking about Dr Hsu's skill as a designer as that "Issue" is not in dispute. We are talking Hsu as a company about to make a massive swing and change of direction into retail B&M. As mentioned by Dwang, I think Dr Hsu tried hard to sell out or get out but the next best thing was to take a work load off and go into the already flooded retail market.


it is GIGANTIC

HSU

STF12
22" x 15" x 22.63"

VTF3
20" x 15" x 22"

SVS

SVS PB1-ISD
18" x 21" x 20"

SVS PB2-ISD
18" x 25" x 28"

SVS PB2+
18" x 25" x 28"



And let's not villify all manufactures that goes toward the B&M path. It is fortunate for us that subwoofers is a market in which there is an online presence, but I would shut out other brands just for the sake of getting the best bang for the buck via online brands.

No although it appears I am single minded on retailers, I am actually not. B&M dealers and retailer certainly have a place but I really do not think Hsu should join that club. It sort of makes a mockery of what Hsu has stood for over the years and why it has earned its well deserved reputation for value. I would hate to see that get destroyed by what is obviously a wrong move for us consumers. We want cheaper and better quality, not the same better quality but at a much more expensive price.

To me this news clearly spells "Big Margin's" and to me that means the manufacturing bottom line has to go much lower or the retail has to go higher. History shows that most take the retail price into line with other retail B&M products which then gives the dealer his exorbitant margins. It is very doubtful that manufacturers can cut the cost of manufacture to allow for the extra massive dealers slice of the action after being a direct marketeer.

I think now that the STF series, and even the VTF-3Rs cabinet is made OS Hsu Research should look at saving massive costs by getting the whole VTF series done OS. Its probably the best way to save massive amounts of money and drop the price down to at least $700 retail all the time.

I love Hsu subwoofers, but boy it sure looks like the company is going the wrong way, that can only end up by its products having mediocrity type pricing. You do not stand out in a crowded room full of black if you wear black.

If ultimately a VTF ends up being priced at a HGS price with similar margins, then the VTF will has lost its hard earned "value tag" which used to shine and appeal to those who where in the know about such audio bargains. Hsu is not distinctive without the combo of value and performance. The HGS can do performance but value is missing. Why would Hsu want to fall into that trap when its full already of gluttons.

I have said it before "its very sad" to see such an audio icon like Hsu fall into the retail price gouge.


Ddavidson

[JohnnyMalone]

Ddavison, relax for a second and DON'T JUMP THE GUN!

HSU has NEVER SAID anything about higher prices! It IS POSSIBLE to display product to a SELECT FEW dealers in the country while still keeping a TOP PRICE!

ECONOMIES OF SCALE is the difference!

HSU can make BETTER PRODUCTS at BETTER PRICES than SVS because of ECONOMIES OF SCALE and because of HIS EXPERTISE!

The move to get SOME PRODUCTS in retail is to gain MORE EXPOSURE for the HSU products! The GOAL is NOT to raise prices!

This is the prospect people FACE when ONLY FACTORY DIRECT is available: they must OFTEN buy WITHOUT EVER SEEING THE PRODUCT AND WITHOUT EVER HEARING THE PRODUCT!

HSU is gaining another COMPETITIVE ADVANTAGE with their Off-shore facilities. Almost ALL manufacturers are doing this, and SVS gets their parts from CANADA and OTHER countries OUTSIDE of USA! SVS must also PAY OTHER PEOPLE to design and manufacturer ALL their product components! HSU is GIFTED, and he can help DESIGN every component on his products because he UNDERSTANDS it!

Let us look at the PB2-ISD and PB2+ again. They are GIGANTIC! Your dimensions are not in proper order! They SHOULD be:

HSU

HSU STF12
22" x 15" x 22.63" (HEIGHT*WIDTH*DEPTH)

HSU VTF3
20" x 15" x 22" (HEIGHT*WIDTH*DEPTH)

SVS PB1-ISD
21" x 18" x 20" (HEIGHT*WIDTH*DEPTH)

SVS PB2-ISD and PB2+
25" x 18" x 28" (HEIGHT*WIDTH*DEPTH)


Go and put a box of 25x18x28 next to your front speakers. THAT IS HUMONGOUS! You might as well put a REFRIDGERATOR next to your TeleVision!!! All for a product that CANNOT REACH REFERENCES LEVELS AT 16-HERTZ, and NOT EVEN FLAT RESPONSE AT 20-HERTZ!

The PB2-ISD and PB2+ are 25% MORE TALL, 20% MORE WIDE, and 27% MORE DEEP than a VTF-3!!! The VTF-3 is NOT A SMALL SUBWOOFER, and the others are GIGANTIC! And both the PB2-ISD and PB2+ ALMOST CERTAINLY have a LESS ROUNDED MUSICAL SOUND, and LESS SMOOTH LOW RESPONSE!

For LESS THAN the price of a GIGANTIC PB2+, you can get TWO STF-12 SUBWOOFERS FROM HSU! The TWO STF-12's stacked will EASILY match the output, have a BETTER SOUNDING BASH AMP, and SHOULD HAVE a more musical rounded sound and more even and flat LOW END response, while taking up MUCH LESS FLOORSPACE!

And even with these bargains, HSU will STILL BE WORKING ON A FLAGSHIP VTF PRODUCT!

If HSU can make a BARGAIN STF-12 for $600 USA, then he WILL BE ABLE TO MAKE FLAGSHIP SUBWOOFERS for $900 and $1200 to BEAT the SVS products! Give him time! We are all waiting to SEE what he can and will do!

[Sasha_G]

I have to agree with Johnny on a lot of his points. A problem with selling direct is that customers rely on the internet for word of mouth. You never know if your listening to a zealot fan-boy or someone who knows their stuff.

A good dealer earns their way by distributing it and demoing it--so you can hear it yourself. They spend fifteen minutes or more with a person letting them hear it for themselves, they pay the shipping to your location, and they handle returns so you don't have to pay return shipping.

Regarding the manufacturing, if Dr. Hsu had his way, he would have MORE time to focus on both on the designing of new products and working with various builders. But his time is limited. Over the past twelve years, Dr. Hsu has done just about every job in the company when needed, from handling sales calls, to order taking, to tech support, to negotiating with builders.

Now that we are growing, and have a few more people, a little more space, and more momentum, there is enough person-power to focus on the the manufacturing process while keeping quality up. We are very confident about the new products, and the quality is looking to be higher than before. Also, because we are not backstabbing business partners, because of the quality of our connections, and because of the good communication, we feel that the builders are more in tune with our intentions than ever. I bet it is extremely rare to find builder/designer communication as good as this. I can't go into too many details about this stuff, except we are cautiously optimistic.

The fruits of these efforts will be the STF subs next month, as well as the Ventriloquist.

I'll leave the performance of the STF subs to the imagination right now, until we start shipping. We don't like to make too many claims on unreleased products, and shipping speaks louder than words.

They will offer a big bang for the buck. We are not aiming at being like everyone else. Think: better performance for the dollar. Let's just say that this is who we are. Dr. Hsu is not forced to do it, it just feels right.

I can say there is a 99% chance of free shipping for direct sales. We will be the only internet outlet, except Ascend.

Plus, there will be retail distribution so more people can get them locally.

For those who want the very best deal without any middlemen, we will have a high end line sold exclusively direct. These items will always be market with something like "sold exclusively direct". What more could you ask for?

And we will also have many of the b-stock items returned from the retail chains or that were made with scratches. These bstock items currently go for 20% off MSRP. For those in the know, getting the biggest bargain in audio will be easy.

Oh, and regarding flagships: we still love our TNs. We continue to strive for the respect of our customers. We're listening to you guys, but don't worry about it, we got it covered. ;)

[gchon]

I am sure you guys have a special place for your TN series since it is of historical significance, but dont your sales figures tell you that no matter how good it sounds it will never really sell as good as a high gloss or veneered box sub. Remember, most of us have grown up and now have the ever present WAF to consider. You couldnt even get me to take those TN subs for free. If I did it would only be to throw them on ebay and get your VTFs.

Do your numbers show that the VTF2&3s sell better than TNs even though the TNs go lower and have more output? I do not know and I am just asking, but from all of the activity and posts, I'd bet that to be the case. If that is the case, then shift gears for gods sake. Have you seen the SVS guys do anything with their tube subs recently? I wonder why not? Doesnt even take a doctor degree to figure that out.

[Sasha_G]

Gchon,

I hear you. You would like a box reference that is only sold direct, I bet.

However, I think it would be silly to not accept a free TN subwoofer.

It's true that box subs are very popular, but we still sell quite a few TNs for those interested in the cleanest, deepest bass.

[JohnnyMalone]

Gchon, the TN represent SPECIAL design and UNIQUE design. These things are one of THE MOST unique subwoofer products that I have seen! SLIM comes to mind immediately, so they can BE TUCKED AWAY even behind the couch! Also light and EASY to move! I read the reviews from 1996 and 1997 and EVEN NOW that performance is AMAZING, and the TN has come a LONG way since then!

HSU is one of the FIRST DIRECT SELLERS to sell a VERY AFFORDABLE box in VTF-2. The VTF-3 also is a HIT. Company like SVS had to SCRAMBLE to put something out, and now their line is out of whack in structure and their other products are DEVALUED. HSU is in a VERY GOOD position. First HSU provides the BEST PERFORMANCE/PRICE that is most affordable with the STF series, and NOW they can work on and make newer VTF FLAGSHIPS. Give them a little time and they will do it!

[Ddavidson]

It IS POSSIBLE to display product to a SELECT FEW dealers in the country while still keeping a TOP PRICE!

We must be located on different planets, because all the dealers that I know want only "one thing" and that is the biggest margin possible. Holly molly these retailers can sell Bose and feel good about it, so morals mean nothing as its all about profit. Direct sale only manufacturers like Hsu Research where special because they where not just about profits. It was obvious from talking to Dr Hsu that he did not want to become a manufacturer who forgot the consumer by doing retail. Well obviously someones been in someones ear and the new blood has diluted the Hsu philosophy. Hsu is to become like another ant in a colony of full of third party retail ants.

Retail a/v sales are entirely driven by recommending, stocking and selling the product with the best margins. If you go into a store its obvious which products have the best margins. They are (mostly) the ones the sales guys push you towards. They do not care one bit about the product only about the financial return and getting you out the dorr so they can do it again.

Cedia retailers are the worst of the lot because they are driven by the higher margin product that appear in glossy a/v magazines.

These guys deal in products that cost the retailer under 1/2 the retail price. These are very profitable a/v showcases that rely on a customers lack of knowledge for a quick fast and extremelly easy big dollar return. We are talking morals of a car salesman with these Cedia stores that Hsu is chasing.

I would have thought this market with names like Krell, Revel, Meridian, Levinson, Velodyne etc was a sure sign that Hsu would never want to play around with. To me these dealers scream " Bring you Morgage papers - You will need them".

As I know from my friends the pressure these dealers put on manufacturers to give them more margin and more freebies makes the whole atmosphere around dealing with them smell like rotten eggs. There was a web site that used to exist where scans of dealer cost price sheets from people like Krell, Revel, Meridian, Levinson, EAD, B&K, M&K, Velodyne etc and believe me it was absolutely "eye bulging" how much margin these dealers got from manufacturers. It shook people to know how much they where being taken for.

There is a big difference between profit and rip off and this is rob me blind type of stuff. These dealers swap brands for profit not performance. The retail scene has a rotting core of self protection, which is why they hate the direct market products and try to bad mouth them.


If the retail price for the sub is $850 why give the dealer the sub for $400/$425 when Hsu could sell the same sub direct to us the consumer for $700 and put the rest into more staff and better facilities. Why give it away to some greed driven third party? Unfortunately it is the poor consumer pays for that third parties profit.

I never thought I would see Hsu Research "give up" and be driven by competitition into the market they have always wanted to avoid. All those years of distinction will be lost in the crowd full of profit takers.

Sad times for what had deservedly over many years, become my icon brand.


Ddavidson

[tomes]

Well, let's give the good doctor a chance here..

There is no doubt he has a great track-record, and I am sure he will do the right thing in the future. This company doesn't strike me as a sell-out company...

I would like to re-iterate a couple of things;
a) free shipping equates to about 50+ USD, which you have to take into account when looking at other companies

b) B-Stock from Hsu is a great deal. The other sub/speaker companies don't give 20% off, so if you can live with minor blemishes, this is a good way to get even better bang for the buck.

My 2 cents.

[JohnnyMalone]

HSU says to my understanding that they will sell their FLAGSHIPS FACTORY DIRECT! Don't worry Ddavidson, everything is going to be OK!!! HAVE FAITH IN THE GREAT DR!

[Ddavidson]

You couldnt even get me to take those TN subs for free. If I did it would only be to throw them on ebay and get your VTFs.

Do your numbers show that the VTF2&3s sell better than TNs even though the TNs go lower and have more output? Have you seen the SVS guys do anything with their tube subs recently?

I would not either (take a free TN).
No offence Dr Hsu but these really are a cardboard tube with 3/4 endcaps and a driver. Not stuff interior designers dreams are made of. These are like giant very unstable cardboard bazooka tubes (car audio / kit like) but for the home of no taste in decor.

Although forgetting kit type quality and toilet holder looks, I know all too well after the demo's that the 1220 is a great sounding subwoofer. But the garden shed is as close to my house as this would get to being allowed on my property with a 1220 under your arm. My wife actually called me better looking and better put together than the 1220 or CS-Ultra , so that is not a good positive thing to say about the look issue of cylinder subwoofers.

A year ago we arranged a big demo in which we put together 4 x the TN1220's (and other subs) and out of all of the 22 people who eventually came to the demo, only two would buy the TN1220 over my VTF-3. It was the same with the recent demo I had with twin Svs CS-Ultra's. These are very ugly and very tall garbage bins and no one except single guys would buy it over the PB series.

Talking with Svs they sell very few cylinders now that they have the PB series. I bet they will totally phase them out of the lime light now they have the better looking box subs. I am sure Hsu is the same. Ugly cylinders are not what the consumer wants in his house, no matter how good they can sound. Even the most stingent supporter can see no future in cylinders as demand for box sub development is the priority.

I doubt the market for these is more than 2%-3% of sales. People just do not like them and vote with their wallets when offered a box sub. I bet when the VTF-2 (Hsu's only box sub at that time) first appeared against the TN series people soon started voting clearly on this. People want boxes as they are easier to stack and hide. The TN's are a crazy thing to offer when the market is all about box subs.


I have to agree with Johnny on a lot of his points. A problem with selling direct is that customers rely on the internet for word of mouth. You never know if your listening to a zealot fan-boy or someone who knows their stuff.



There are other ways than paying enormous dollars profit to a third party Cedia dealer that brings nothing to the table. No matter which way you swing the zelot thing a 30 day return period and my own room acoustics is the best way to buy and save money (if its a direct market only geared product).

What sounds good in a dealers is in no way indicative of how it sounds in your own acoustical enviroment. Also the high pressure sales dribble is totally the opposite to the relaxed enviroment of what is a 30 day in home trial. Retailers really bring nothing worth their demanded profit share. The consumer suffers the WHOLE extra cost of having dead wood in the transaction.
Leave that market to the scam artists who love to fleece people who do not know a sub from a speaker. That is a whole can of worms that once you enter you find your morals have to go out the door. Its all about the sell and you get there via Bose like con tricks.
Do Hsu really want to be part of that type of representation? Think used car sales guy and thats the competitive retail market sales method.

I walk into a retail store and have to do the Dr Evil "Zip It" to the sales guy, because lets face it who really wants or needs that kind of dribble, and who needs some fishing story told about why Bose is the greatest or why you pay so much for Krell or Meridian. I must say these guys ruined quite a few brands in my mind just with the way they present them and the cr_p that they tell you. So disturbing to have knowledge of the inner workings of retail.
I will say it clearly, no matter what the dealers say now, they will eventually demand those big margins and you will be left with no choice but to raise the retails to feed these fleas

I guess the reality is that who really cares? Because all it really means is that the consumer just pays "more" than he would have if you had the policy of only selling to him direct. Saying the direct market is not big enough to make an excellent income is like saying George is a great public speaker.



Ddavidson

[JohnnyMalone]

It is VERY TRUE that many want the box to look better in their room than tubular-sub. Yet think more about this. The PB2-ISD and PB2+ are GIGANTIC! It DEFEATS THE PURPOSE to have a better shape if people are forced to put a REFRIDGERATOR-sub in their room!

Have FAITH man! WE KNOW that HSU can do it BETTER than SVS, in probably ALL aspects of sound quality that are important! Give them a chance to do it!

[Lwang]

Hsu initially came out with the cylindrical design not due to ease of manufacturing, but its superior accoustic properties. It is just a coincidence that the DIY crowd found out it is an easy way to make subwoofers.

And no matter how much they brace those box subs, the cabinet would never be as inert as a cylindrical design. Look at what some of those $30k-$40k are doing with their speaker cabinet, they spend an insane amount of effort to kill the resonance with its inlaid lead, solid billet, etc.

Cylindrical sub enclosures are products for a single purpose. If it is not accepted in one's decor, I assume neither would speakers like Wilson WAMM, Avamtgarde horns, or even pipedream speakers with the cylindrical woofer units.

[delling001]

This is my first post to this forum and let me warn everyone I am not an expert with anything other than with what I like for myself and the reasons why.... However, I do have a few things to say that are valid for me...

I attended the recent HE2003 show in SF. This was my first time at an event like this but I wanted to go in part to hear the HSU subs I had read so much about. So, I am a prospect but not a customer. I found the tiny unassuming HSU demo room and it was full of people (many looked as dumbfounded as I was). I waited outside until the room cleared and went in and sat down in one of the chairs. Folks this wasn't a display of opulence by any means. There are several subs sitting against a few different walls, and the chairs were cramped in close together. Come to think of it, I believe they were simple metal folding chairs, and not new ones either....

A friendly but quiet "looking" fella came in with a sub sandwich in one hand (it was the Dr. himself), and a remote in the other, and told us he was going to demo a few of his products for us. He was not shy about eating his sandwich between each short intro to his products.

For the next several minutes he demo'd the VTF-3 as well as the soon to be released Ventriloquist 5.0 system on a few different sound tracks. I was literally blown away by every sound that filled that room regardless of the product he showed. I was equally impressed when Dr. Hsu was asked what he was driving the Ventriloquist system with, and he said "whatever they picked up cheaply at Costco". He also joked about the wiring he was using for connections and that too was nothing fancy at all.

Sooooo, what's the bottom line for ME here:

1) Dr. Hsu did not strike me at all as the type of guy who could be lured in to "sell out" to big greedy money grubbers. I came to look at his products and came away as impressed with his being. He's a brilliant engineer who is striving to think out of the box, and make products that I can use without buying high end components, while at the same time set new standards for excellence in their performance categories. Or better yet redefine what the current categories even are! This guy is genuine I believe, as are his motives as well..

2) The Ventriloquist is going to be AWESOME for the price! I spoke to a HSU employee outside after the demo, and he said that what I heard probably wasn't even the final version yet because the doctor may still make some changes, as he is known for being very picky with the drivers he selects. So folks, my expectations are very high for the final!

3) I do NOT own a Hsu product (yet). I am watching this forum and others very closely to get more info. I will probably try to arrange for another longer demo next month when I travel to So. Cal on vacation (hopefully at Hsu Research?). I'm interested in Hsu sub and Ascend system, but I want to listen firsthand. The AVS forum is very heavy into SVS, and this HSU thread has really helped me to balance all the opinions with some good solid facts.

For me.... I'm a VERY interested prospect for purchasing a Hsu product(s) who is even MORE interested after meeting the man behind the product and company. Thanks for listening to my ramblings, but for me, Dr. Hsu is not a sell out, but a selling point for his products. Have a GREAT week all!

Dave.

[Ddavidson]

Have FAITH man!

Not in retail industry.
I avoid it like the plauge unless I am armed with the dealer cost sheets. I hate paying more towards peoples margin than they deserve, and buying from dealers who offer me nothing but added cost means I give them at most 5% on top of cost, and that is it (all they deserve) Why give away or waste my good money when you obviously see no value in buying from a greed driven dealer.

Now because I am buying direct from Hsu Research I do not mind if he is making 40%+ because at least he deserves to make such sums. I am all for giving Hsu Research the money, but those blood suc_ing retail leaches do not deserve an easy 50%+.The industry is a profit driven cash cow for fat cats driving flash cars.

Give all profits to the manufacturer not the leach hanging off the end. I really do not want to support those who do absolutely zip for their money, so I am probably forced to look at my Vtf-3 and Vtf-2 upgrade options in other areas (which upsets me greatly). I certainly did not want Hsu to change into retail as I find the morals of retail and the money that they get is well out of step with the real world. You have to be pretty well at peace with being able to rip people off at will. The whole morality of what they do for no effort just turns me right off. It is a car salesmen attitude. I once brought a Velodyne and latter found out the dealer cost. Ever since I have never been able to forget what the whole industy is about and thats why I went to Hsu Research.

Profit is one thing, but using a baseball bat to get a customers wallet is only "just short" of how this retail industry thinks. Its something that we have enough brand's doing already. Sort of reminds you of a dark alley full of people wearing hats and sunglasses whispering - Pss..tt have I got a deal for you come over here??????

Thanks but no thanks.
I buy what I want not what you get the biggest margin on.

Ddavidson

[Lwang]

If I was forced to buy internet brand compoents instead of from one of those blood-sucking leaches, I would have to end up with the POS Outlaw 950 pre/proc, some POS planar speaker (that isn't even dipole) that switches to distortion box woofer in the lower midrange, harsh sounding HT amps that are OEM'd from brands that I would never look in the first place.

[Ddavidson]

If I was forced to buy internet brand compoents instead of from one of those blood-sucking leaches, I would have to end up with the POS Outlaw 950 pre/proc,

I certainly have not said that all internet brands are good, because clearly they are not. (like many retail brands - many brands and models are lemons) I also have not said that we should all be buying only internet brands. But Hsu makes a few subs it is after all - not Sony.

I will only purhace online at the best price for all my a/v items. I see no need for shopping at my local B&M dealers if I get a return period. (which I insist on - or I simply will not buy at that online dealer)

Dealers are only good for people with "no knowledge" and those who want to be told what they should buy (or what is best for the dealer to sell them $$$) Dealers offer me, not 1 ounce of value, because like buying a car I know that price is my only restriction. If you want to be sold Bose and have no fear about buying the dealer some new carpet (from the profit you will give him) then knock yourself out. For me I will shop around online and get the best price. Thus saving thousands of my hard earned dollars for the same equipment. I would rather do this than give those thousands away in a moment of generosity (sorry stupidity). It stunning how much I have saved on my system from buying at the local B&M dealers (leaches). I must look for that web site that had what all your favorite a/v brands sell to your dealer for (cost price). It is absolutely mind boggling that they make so much money for doing basically nothing. If I had no conscience then I suppose I would look at ripping people off as well. Its legal.

If you love wasting money I know plenty of slime balls (B&M retailers) that charge lots of $$ extra over what I buy the same gear for. But I admit they do give you a smile when swiping your card.



Ddavidson

[DavidD]

Well, I'll take the free TN. Can I stop by and pick it up this afternoon, Sasha?

[tomes]

heck, I'll even pay shipping if you send one over to me, Sasha! :D

[DavidD]

Wait a minute! I was first!

[Sasha_G]

Wait! No free subwoofers yet! ;)

Ddavidson,

It's almost as if you are frustrated because we aren't the speaker company you want us to be. You need to think about our point of view. I think we have some different opinions about what Hsu Research is "all about".

You go on and on about how the value will be lessened, but in light of what I've seen, this simply is false.

I'm telling you that all signs indicate that quality and value is going to increase, while prices go down. But your firm fixed beliefs indicate otherwise. Fine, I'm not out to change everyones beliefs about how to run an audio company.

I will reiterate my points mentioned earlier--there is truth to the principles of "economies of scale" and "globalization." Direct marketing is great, but not a panacea.

Also, your swipes at the TN series come off as a bit contentious. I value different points of view, but this is an good example of how your view of "what we are all about" differs from our view, and you need to be corrected.

We love our TNs because they stand for sound quality over appearances, honest engineering over hype. Their appearance is "unique" for some people, because we enjoy making innovations instead of "thinking inside the box".

Sure, we could join the bandwagon and make tiny, high distortion micro subs that sound awful but look great--we would probably sell a ton of them. However, that would offer only a short term solution that would harm us eventually.

In the end, please show some understanding for our point of view.

[Ddavidson]

I will reiterate my points mentioned earlier--there is truth to the principles of "economies of scale" and "globalization." Direct marketing is great, but not a panacea.



That is the theory and rationalization used to arrive at the argument that the "economies of scale" will improve the price. But if you look at the history of any company who has done the direct to B&M dealer (distribution) you will soon see the trend that prices go up not down or stay level. This company move you want to make is not original in audio circles, it has happened many times before and many times the company has eventually failed because the retail market is all about enormous profit. As a long time audio hobbiest I have watched many companies make this fatal move with it was with great sadness for us as meer consumer who eventually pays for such a move (lasting or fatal).

The thing is that the extra sales and income through this "economies of scale" argument is way offset by the discounts needed to be given to retailers to get such products onto the showroom floor. This leads to the massive product markups that we see at every B&M a/v store today. The internet has exposed just how bad this massive across the board markup policy within the industry is. Its a closed boys club of we will not sell your gear unless you give us X$. They know your commited and now geared to numbers and use that as weight against you.

Once you have a ticket in the big game unfortunately you have to play by their rules to make the "economies of scale" thing work. If you try to go against this the whole going into retail crashes to the ground , and the company structure fails and eventually folds as another number on the board, in the long sordid history of failed audio manufactures.

It really is such a tempting move to many small manufacturers but its not what it appears, and the saddest part is that the consumer gets the raw end of the financial stick. By having to pay for the massive third party distribution costs. I know I could never change your minds on this as you have obviously been cohersed into it. But lets be clear that you are entering the "pure numbers game". All this means is that your forever trapped in the retail cycle of the retailers demands for more profit, freebies, hypebole generation and adding useless features and gloss that do not help value or sound quality.



Also, your swipes at the TN series come off as a bit contentious.

We love our TNs because they stand for sound quality over appearances, honest engineering over hype.

It's a swipe at the real "reality" of the market. Its also a swipe about wasting development on cylinders. The thing is that you would be better to spend that time and money on developing more box subs, rather than the time and money you have spent developing the TN1X. It not just a Hsu swipe but it is a swipe at SVS and its cylinders. Even SVS now know their cylinders are not the desired shape customers want.

The whole issue is that the vast majority of people buying subwoofers (yes your customers) want boxes and its very obvious that you need models above you current VTF-3 (better output at much lower distortion levels).

No doubting that the TN sounds good, but in truth it could be the best in the world and the majority of your consumers would not touch it with a barge pole. It is not what the majority want (its not rocket science, its actually very simple to see). After all I thought Hsu wanted to play as a mass market player and gain the "economies of scale" benefits. If the simple truth about the look of the TN worries you, you will get very upset at what is important in selling at a retail level.


It's almost as if you are frustrated because we aren't the speaker company you want us to be.

All I see is history repeating itself and another "awesome" audio company being led down the garden path, by promises of a pot of gold at the end of the retail rainbow. Unfortunately its hard to tell grown men that there is no pot of gold at the end of the retail rainbow.

The retail market is full of big boys with lots of capital, and the best way a "gifted designer" can compete is by selling direct (saving 50%+) and offering great customer service to compliment his great product range. The problem is that being a "gifted designer" doesnt mean you are a "gifted marketeer" "gifted salesman" "gifted hyperbole creator" "gifted negotiator". So before blaming the market area in which the company operates for a lack of "economies of scale" (buying/manufacturing) it would pay to look at the whole picture with an open mind. You might soon discover you could have had a much bigger slice of the pie without such radical and nonreversible changes to the company structure.

The main deal is that the principles of "economies of scale" are more than balanced by the margins you need to give third parties and you will totally loose control and loose all personal touch with the real people "your customers". History shows its rare that this deal works and if it does then it costs the consumer and is nothing more than a shell of the original company.

Dr Hsu would be better to do what he originally was talking about and sell it as a going concern and then he just consults to who ever he want. Holly smoke IMO it would be better to close it down rather than to let the name get dragged down some of the rhetoric that other great companies have endured when going and operating in this market.

Take a close look at the disasters before thinking its a great move. Once its gone the customer suffers and its pretty much gone for good (one or two might end up revived (some short term) with a cash injection from an invester but its heartache stuff normally).

Stay direct and stay in control.



Ddavidson
Hsu supporter and fan

[JohnnyMalone]

Ddavidson, HSU is the BEST VALUE now and they WILL be the best VALUE in the FUTURE! Their upcoming FLAGSHIP products will be sold FACTORY DIRECT ONLY. Their MORE AFFORDABLE products will be sold online and through a LIMITED dealer network! Have faith in Dr. Hsu!

[haionlife]

Man, y'all gettin deep in this thread! I think I'LL take a deep breath and go listen to my TNs for a bit and remember why I'm even reading this forum in the first place.

I think the TNs should stay in the line, even though they may not be decor friendly as the VTFs, because THEY are the statement product of the Hsu line at the moment. And what a statement they are!!! I have a challenge out with a local dealer...I'm gonna bring in my TNs and put them up against a pair of his RELs costing more than 4 times as much. I know they kick butt, but it will be enlightening to see it on his face. I'll post the results of the battle later.

On an earlier point in the thread...has anyone actually HEARD the other subs (SVS I believe)??? Anyone made a comparison in their own room? I'd like to hear those results. I am one to consult specs as a guideline only...I don't even pay attention to power ratings. So, while they may measure (physically and resposnively) similar the SOUND may be very different.

Sasha, do y'all ever bring in other subs to compare with yours?

I have some ideas about how to run a business, but don't know the audio biz...so my only comment on that note is just a request. Please keep the TNs in the line until they are bettered by another statement/reference product, and always keep the direct channel open even if you move to B&M sales. having the option of cutting out the middleman is always more appealing.

Rock on!

mark

[Ddavidson]

cutting out the middleman is always more appealing.


Absolutely it is a major appealing factor.

Ddavidson

[Sasha_G]

Originally posted by haionlife
.
Sasha, do y'all ever bring in other subs to compare with yours?


We sometimes listen to the competitors subwoofers. Its usually the same story: there is no comparison. Especially with department store subs. Sorry to boast, but its true. Other times a subwoofer has admirable characteristics in one way or another, but doesn't do everything correctly. We are more interested in listening to our own subwoofers anyhow!

Originally posted by haionlife
.
having the option of cutting out the middleman is always more appealing.

Rock on!


Factory direct sales will always offer the lowest price, and we will continue that tradition into the future.

[david_da_kine]

Just wanted to say that the toilet roll comment is an obvious troll. I wouldn't take it seriously at all. Hey, cubes are ugly too. Toilet rolls do sound much better though.

[Ddavidson]

the toilet roll comment is an obvious troll. I wouldn't take it seriously at all.

Obviously you must not be married.

The giant covered toilet roll comment actually was a comment made by my wife at a TN series demonstration. Which in all honesty, I found to be a pretty accurate description of their look. No one, (including my wife) has ever said that they sounded bad, but the simple reality is that "most people" do not like the look or the shape of any of the cylinder subwoofers from any manufacturer.

No matter which way you look at this subject, box subwoofers are quite plainly, and quite simply the prefered shape of a subwoofer. That is why companies like Hsu and Svs know all too well that the vast majority of their customers will choose a box sub over a cylinder subwoofer. It would be a very silly and suicidal move, to try and go against this obvious customer preference.

Without customers it makes selling subwoofers a pretty pointless exercise.


Factory direct sales will always offer the lowest price
__________________
Sasha Goodman


Hence why I do not want to see Hsu Research head into this CEDIA dealer show and start selling retail (with its enormous markups). These are dealers that appear in those glossy magazines selling snake oil for awe inspiring profit margins. Take a close look at what these dealers sell for and what you buy it for via the internet and you soon see the greed of these dealers.

I just wished Hsu would pass on some of these savings to "us" their consumers and forget about adding middle men who will only after a short time period demand more markup and more profit be given to them for acting as a middle man for Hsu Research. Its a train wreck situation for us the cost effective direct market consumer.

Let these Cedia dealers sell their high profit Krell, Meridian, Revel, Aerial, EAD, Theta, Audioquest etc and leave HSU Research products to us less than millionares. It makes me very sad to think "where" this will end up in another 18/24 mths time. A Direct sales only policy is the best option for us the price conscience consumers. We have enough overpriced audio equipment on the market avaliable through dealers without giving them one of the good direct market companies (HSU). With good marketing the direct market is wide open and its full potetial has been totally untapped. Lots of scope in this untapped market and absolutely no need to drop the bundle on being direct only.



Ddavidson

[haionlife]

Regardless of which direction(s) The Dr. goes, it sounds like there will be a way for direct buyers to procure the goods (so I'm not too worried). I applaude Hsu's efforts to mainstream a bit, and also am a bit concerned of the possible consequences. But, I think if the dealer route fails, there will always be the core direct buyers here. In the meantime, I'm spreading the word and getting people excited about Hsu's products...I think I may have 3 Ventriloquist buyers already not including my 2 sets. Keep the faith and keep loving the spoils of the Dr's labours.

2 sets you say...why one for the office and one for the van of course. Gotta have a good front stage for those long trips to LA :) I'll be putting in the 1203s in this winter. Now, if I could afford to get multichannel in there too!!!

Ddavidson, please don't take this as antagonistic...you speak like you have some experience in the industry. I haven't read all the old posts in the forums, but am wondering what your history in the industry is. Please respond privately if you like. Thanks.

[Ddavidson]

you speak like you have some experience in the industry. I haven't read all the old posts in the forums, but am wondering what your history in the industry is. Please respond privately if you like.

No need for private exchanges as it is on record in various forums / newsgroups.

For the record again.
"No" I have never worked for or in the audio industry. I have always worked in the financial / management sector of running small to medium sized businesses.

The source of my information on the inner workings of the audio business comes from two very close friends. The irony is they both are Cedia dealers and are at the show. They certainly know the margins they buy at. I nearly died when they first showed me their buy prices compared to their sell pricing.

These two have each worked for over 20 years in both the retail and the wholesale of hi-fi equipment. Being LA based they also know the situation with Hsu very well (i.e. being a direct market product), along with knowing all about the great Hsu magazine reviews.

Both have used my VTF-2 and VTF-3, and expressed to me what the dealer price should be based on the industry standard markup for similar competing products (they also based it on the current $850 retail price for the VTF-3 and $500 for the VTF-2).

It was not a story that Hsu customers would like to hear. Even under the lowest manufacturing costs the numbers to retail at this level would mean that the cost to manufacture either of these would be almost unheard of (extremely low). The only real way out that they could see is to "increase the retail" to pay for all these extra distribution mouths which need to be feed "if you change to retail". You do not have to be a rocket scientist to work out, it is the "customer" that will end up footing the bill for any increased profit taking by adding dealer margins.

It would also be a very serious mistake to think that the direct sales price could be different from the B&M retail price. People have an amazing number of ways now in which to find out the difference in price, much to the detriment of any former excellent reputation Hsu might have built up. Customers will get upset as no one likes to learn they have paid an extra $150-$200 that they might not have had to pay had they brought direct.

As my friends have said, you have to have just "one price", based on either direct or retail price points. You can not mixthe two, because they both work on very different margins.

Hsu is such an awesome brand for value and performance (without the extra heavy duty hyperbole) that I would simply hate to see that change.

Ddavidson

[haionlife]

Thanks, Dd!

[BradJudy]

I tend to agree with Ddavidson's view of Hsu's entry into the retail arena, which makes me think about jumping on a STF-12 when they are released and before the price increases. Only time will tell.

[haionlife]

Brad, Think of it as an investment...if the price goes up and its not as good as the VTF-2 you can always sell it and maybe even make a profit!
Oops, that would make you a dealer...
:p

[Sasha_G]

Of course there is no way of saying for sure, but everything we are doing now is designed so that factory direct prices don't go up. If our factory direct prices went up, we would be beat out by these internet direct marketers.

Of course, not many people know about our website. For those that do not know about our website and go to a dealer, the MSRP will be higher than the factory direct price. Dealers need this extra pricing room to handle freight, returns, staffing, and other things.

[Ddavidson]

makes me think about jumping on a STF-12 when they are released and before the price increases.

I think this advise should be well taken by those seeking the best value. Because other than death and taxes, this future price increase is obviously going to be a certainty to cover these excessive dealers margins. It is the penalty of going into dealers showrooms.


go to a dealer, the MSRP will be higher than the factory direct price.

I feel that this two priced structure will really come back to haunt you in the medium/long term. No one has ever been able to do this without the consumer getting very upset when they eventually find out that they paid so much more for the exact same item.

Of course the dealers that you are signing up at shows like Cedia know very well that they will prevail and that Hsu will be forced to give them that enormous margin at the expense of the existing Hsu direct market customer. The irony of all this signing of dealers is that dealers hate the direct market, and will do anything to discredit the products sold as direct market only products. The only looser here is going to be us the direct customer who wants to not pay any extra to use a middleman. These middlemen add absolutely no value to your products. IMO better marketing is the key to gaining a more profitable Hsu Research, not signing on dealers.


Ddavidson

[tdekany]

Ddavidson - I love Hsu subwoofers, but boy it sure looks like the company is going the wrong way,
Wrong way? According to whom? You? You are not the company and I am not sure if you would appreciate if I was to tell you what you should be doing with your business just so that it would benefit me.
Most people still purchase at retail not on line. While Sasha did say that the price would go up a bit, retail price could still stay the same as the direct price. Dr Hsu would simply make less profit per unit but volume would make up for it. So there. Plus you will still have the option to get it direct so who cares if they are sold in stores for the same money or a little bit more. You are not forced to pay more. (thanks Dr Hsu!)
Another thing - you want Hsu to be unique by not going retail/sell out, yet you are suggesting that he sells out by making box shaped woofers and get rid of the TNs that are clearly better sounding woofers! You confuse me. You are not representing "us" - only yourself. I don't agree with you.

Also, why don't you just buy another VTF 3? No "flagship" product will match the performance of 2 of them.

m2c

[DavidD]

tdekany, I agree with a good bit of what you're saying. I think I've even said some it in the distant past (but not as well). I think the real issue here is that we all value Hsu Research and the the value and performance of its products. Some of us on this forum are concerned that might be lost. Sasha has tried to reassure us about that. I belive him and I trust Dr. Hsu.

From the beginning, Hsu Research has specialized in high performance and high value. That didn't happen by accident. It happened because Dr. Hsu wanted it to happen. I don't think that is likely to change. However, if he wants it to change....well, it is his company, isn't it?



BTW - Alexandria, VA, eh? Among other things, I graduated from high school there (too long ago).

[tdekany]

Originally posted by DavidD
BTW - Alexandria, VA, eh? Among other things, I graduated from high school there (too long ago).

that is cool! Actually I moved to Fairfax right by George mason.

[Ddavidson]

Wrong way? According to whom?
According to all previous known history of audio manufacturers going from direct selling structure into selling into retail outlets.
I am not sure if you would appreciate if I was to tell you what you should be doing with your business
If you where a customer of mine then I would be totally foolish not to at least listen to what you have to say. If enough customers expressed the same concern I would be slightly insane not to seriously consider what they where saying before irreparable damage may be caused.

retail price could still stay the same as the direct price.
So if your logic and math is correct just how much does it cost to manufacture say a $610 STF-12? Is Hsu making that much profit that they can cut a dealer for 45-50% without changing the $610 retail?

I seriously doubt it.
I know that something has to give, and I can guarentee that from looking at the history lessons of similar moves, that change will be against the lowish direct pricing . It is only simple math.

Also, why don't you just buy another VTF 3? No "flagship" product will match the performance of 2 of them.
Its called accoustics. You will find that room mode problems are greater with balancing seperate sub positioning. Finding one ideal bass position is hard enough let alone two seperate positions. I also would not want a stack of VTF-3s which would look like I am starting a warehouse in my room. Not to mention I actually have a lack of physical room to put two VTF-3s.

For me its not about doing it to play louder. Its about getting a flagship that has far less distortion and can take and play the full power of the digital LFE soundtrack (+15dB) without distortion. Their is a lot more benefit to getting a Hsu flagship on the market ASAP than just reporting high SPL levels in reviews. The Hsu lineup is very obviously totally void of a standout hang your hat type flagship which draws in customers. One thing Roger Hall at Velodyne has always done well and that is to get his flagship right and sell off of it. Take a look at his 1812 as he new his HGS series was not going to keep the market interest. You do not get market kludos and recogniton sitting at the bottom or even the middle of the pack.

TNs that are clearly better sounding woofers! You confuse me
I know that they sound good. But its logical that is not the only point of having a subwoofer company. The subwoofer market clearly and very loudly has said that it doesn't want cylinders. It buys box subs and unless you are just in it to pass the time I would suggest that cylinder subwoofers are not what you want to be concerntrating on producing.

Who cares how good they are if very few people want to buy them. You would be far better off to design something that sells so you can stay in business. I guess as a business guy that is sort of an important part of being in a business in the first place.

Hence why Hsu started manufacturing the VTF series and why it easily outsells the TN series. Svs noted the same issue and looking at their news section they have dramatically increased the amount of variations and finishes in their box subs. Acording to postings Svs has No new cylinders as the sales are all going to the box subs.

You are not representing "us" - only yourself. I don't agree with you.
No you are correct I do not because I represent the majority. Sorry if thats blunt, but its obvious that you and your thoughts are what is the minority opinion. Otherwize all subwoofer companies would be selling cylinders. Cylinders are the not ever going to be popular and that is undisputable. People just like powered boxes best. As a business Hsu would be mad to fight that logic no matter what you as a niche within a minority might desire.

Most people still purchase at retail not on line. While Sasha did say that the price would go up a bit
Quite correct. Retail certainly would sell a lot more, especially at this moment of our online development. Unknown to you, you are sort of answering why I as a consumer do not want to see this happen. Its like a book that has already been in print (audio manufacturing history).

Given a very small amount of time the retailers will start selling much more quantity, than the far less promoted/advertised factory direct market route. This initial sales history spurt of Hsu product will give the dealers the ammo and a bargaining chip to get exactly what they want. Hsu will (no matter what they might think or say now) be held to ransom by dealers about both pricing and direct sales. Mark my words. Hsu will be left with absolutely no choice but to agree to increasing the retails to feed these greedy dealers demands. Either that or the dealers will just use Hsu and sell off of the Hsu reputation by the recommendation of a retail brand which has the big margins. If given little or no margin, dealers will very quickly stop selling Hsu and it will all end in heartache for Hsu's hard earned reputation. By entering into limited retail Hsu is (given a relatively short time frame) quickly defining its destiny to be a retail only structure.

Dealers get and demand big margins and no matter how good a product is Dealers will not do it for nothing. It is foolish to think that we the consumer will not be the ones paying for this additional third party. Hsu would be better just to say that they will end direct sales on January 1st 2004, as it will happen that way anyhow along with the increased retail prices to feed the dealers pockets. Its destiny since its now being started.

Sorry to be grim but its just a fact of life that that is how business works. Every business has a certain operational price. Me - I was just hoping for a great priced flagship as we have enough Velodynes, Revel and Aerials. Give it 12 to 18 mths and we will see the changes, but even with rose colored glasses, Hsu consumers will clearly see the dollars involved in making this move into retail.

Ddavidson

[tdekany]

Man - you are taking this way too seriously. We are talking about subwoofers.

Boston Acoustics’ top of the line 2 way separate for cars retails at $ 1000.00 per pair. Wholesale is $250.00!!!!!!!

But the $1000.00 is made up by the manufacturing company and it has nothing to do with the retailer. So imagine what is cost to produce a $ 610.00 woofer. Quality or great products cost money. You should know that. So instead of putting down HSU in so many of your posts, why not just go for a value product and buy something else.

We are all humans here, which mean that we are way too greedy! Too cheap! We want everything for free. Well, Dr Hsu and everyone else have to make a profit. Manufacturers are not
NON PROFIT organizations. To "give away a product" will make HSU go out of business. Why not just be happy that you can purchase a VTF 3 at under $1000.00 instead of paying $1999.00 at retail store. Support is what dr Hsu deserves not constant criticism from you.

High prices? Look at your mortgage.

[Ddavidson]

Man - you are taking this way too seriously.

Of course I am because I see it as a big mistake that will take away one of the key reasons why people love Hsu Research. Being direct allowed Hsu to sell to us poorer consumers - at better than retail prices. That is why we loved it being direct. We already have way too many overpriced retail subwoofers.

As far as price/performance value I certainly would hate to see Hsu end up being labeled as average.

Keep the customer value side of Hsu by staying direct. Put the profit from all sales directly back into Hsu Research not into greedy dealers hands. By being "direct only" Hsu carries its own destiny and can control becoming bigger and stronger without being dictated to bythese greedy dealers. Being direct is the future especially as people become used to dealing with buying via the net. Customers want the best price when shopping (its human nature) they do not want to pay for the living expenses of a third unnessesary party (dealer)


Well, Dr Hsu and everyone else have to make a profit. Manufacturers are not
NON PROFIT organizations.

Who said Hsu deserved no profit?
I am and have always being saying the exact opposite. I want them to get and take "more profit" and not give it away to greedy retailers. From my point of view I would like to see Hsu better promote itself as a direct only manufacturer. The scope is great for improvement as Dr Hsu has obviously done just about all the hard work up to this stage, so it would be a shame to see him drop the bundle so close to picking up his just rewards. Handing the majority profit to dealers at this stage would be just plain crazy.

IMO Hsu should put out a clear message to its customers that it offers value by being and staying as a direct only manufacturer. Make no mistake in that Hsu could enormously increase sales quantity without going to dealers. They can do this by listening to the majority demands/desirers of its customers and the market in general. Lets not also fail to mention that the Hsu marketing department really needs a dedicated and track proven specialist to lift the company profile.


Why not just be happy that you can purchase a VTF 3 at under $1000.00 instead of paying $1999.00 at retail store.

That is exactly what I am trying to avoid by bringing this subject up. Once the wheels are in motion and Hsu starts fully going into a retail structure, that $1999.00 becomes a common part of the Hsu speak and that is an issue that concerns me as a long time Hsu customer. Once you walk the crooked path toward this retail destiny, I am afraid there will be no coming back to the good old value days of Hsu. Its not an overnite change, but it certainly will happen no matter what good intentions they might have today.


Support is what dr Hsu deserves not constant criticism from you.

I have had various Hsu equipment for many years and I continue to wait for a real flagship without buying opposition equipment. So you could say my support is on the table and is unquestionable in favor of Hsu. My concern is as a consumer we will get the raw end of the stick like other retail brands do. I would rather deal direct with the designer/manufacturer than some third party that has not got a clue except for how much profit he can make out of you. This is after all why most of us choose to buy from Hsu and not from a retailer selling M&K,Velodyne etc We have more than enough high priced retail brands.

Of course if you want to pay a retailers living expenses then be my guest but thats not what made Hsu such an attraction to so many. It was price for the performance. Take away that and give it to dealers and unfortunately it becomes average. A HGS is a great sub but its got no value (except for in the dealers pocket)


Ddavidson

[Sasha_G]

Ddavidson,

The fact that you can openly vocalize your concerns on our forum is a good thing. It is the sign of a healthy involvement of our fans.

If nobody voiced concerns, then I would be really worried.

haionlife,

Thanks for spreading the word about the Ventriloquist! We are surprised also at how good it sounds.

We need people like you spreading the word. We don't have big marketing budgets like some of the other online audio and subwoofer companies.

To all,

To avoid confusion, there are no price increases planned or forseen for products sold direct!

[Ddavidson]

The fact that you can openly vocalize your concerns on our forum is a good thing. It is the sign of a healthy involvement of our fans.

If nobody voiced concerns, then I would be really worried.

Agreed. It also is a very good sign of the transperancy of Hsu Research. To all members, please understand that it was never meant to be "flame bait" just for some quick argumentitive kick. It is an area that I like many direct type customers can see will totally change the foundation on which the Hsu business, will do business.

People need to remember that I like many other online shoppers have specifically choosen to cut out the enormous 3rd party profits by buying from certain manufacturers direct. The pricing structure of these direct companies obviously doesn't allow for any additional hand outs of profit. (especially the margins demanded by greedy retailers). It is "plain as daylight" that if you add a 3rd party they are not going to do it for nothing, or less than the market average.

Regardless, it is very obvious (using plain common sense) that given time into this retail move the Hsu price structure will be forced to change to cover this change of structure. Personally as a bargain hunter I certainly do not agree with Hsu going into retail because I know all too well that this is the start of the end for the original buy direct and save pricing structure. The retail market is totally flooded with over priced high margin subwoofers. This is why Hsu was a breath of fresh air. Being direct to keep it cheap for consumers has long been the catch cry of Hsu Research.

I guess in hindsight I just wished it was not my favorite brand involved.

Ddavidson