Release Night for Ventriloquist and STF Subwoofers ?

[Ddavidson]

Is Hsu Research planning a full release/publicity night for the Ventriloquist and STF Subwoofers ? I guess with October 1st getting very close, the full info will soon be on the web site, but as far as I can tell except for the STF-1 demo in SFO, the STF-2 & STF-3 have not been heard. The hilights of Cedia show little so what actually was demonstrated and shown at Cedia? Once the launch dust settles, a night of demos (all models) may be a good way of keeping the heat on.

Ddavidson

[Driven]

Will Ascend be carrying the STF series as well?

[haionlife]

OOps! Looks like the HSU Home Page now says October 31st!!!

:(

But that gives them time to plan one, and me to make travel plans...so how about some release party love here :)

[Sasha_G]

Yeah, sure, we can arrange such a shin-dig to spread the good vibrations for our local fans and curiousity seekers.

Maybe even Dave from Ascend could come. I haven't asked him yet. He will be carrying the STF line as well.

Free pizza, wine, and DJ Sasha G will be on hand for the festivities.

Once the exact date is known, I'll make sure everyone knows it.

[Lwang]

Maybe this event should be more hyped up on other forums. I heard only a few people showed up for the prior open house.

[Ddavidson]

Maybe this event should be more hyped up on other forums.

I agree with that. IMO now that it looks like you are aiming for more of what the market wants (active cubed subwoofers) Hsu Research really need to step up the promotion, marketing and advertisment campaigns. (not the rhetoric hype other brands follow)

Simple promotions such as the introduction of the STF series should be a walk in the park and attract many people not just a handful. Perhaps even a Ventriloquist / STF giveaway entry prize or even a 10% discount for people who come along.

Getting Dave from Ascend to come along is a great idea. Perhaps he will also help promote and spread the word? The other issue is to see who else you could get in on the night as you could always ask some of the magazine reviewers to drop by.

Lots of scope for getting the word out even befor the STF reviews start coming to print.

Ddavidson

[Sasha_G]

We'll need a little help from our friends (you guys) as far as the other internet forums are concerned. I can use all the help possible. Last time there really wasn't much promotion--just a little note on the homepage about a week before the event.

I'll talk to the #1 about the entry prize and inviting members of the press. Dr. Hsu will probably know which people are local.

[cschang]

I think getting a big crowd will be difficult.

How many people in the SoCal area actually know about Hsu Research?

Sasha, how many people actually on the mailing list? How many hits does the Hsu site get a day?

And it has to be planned on a weekend. Not many people willing to drive in traffic on a friday evening.

No matter...if it is on a day that I am free, I will be there.

-curtis

[DavidD]

Like others here, I'll be there whenever it is, as long as I'm available. Also, I'll do whatever I can to promote the event, if that is the direction you want to go.

[haionlife]

I believe the Home Theater Mag people are down your way. And, a personally delivered invitation would go a long way, I think.

Also, getting word out to the local custom installers and intergrators who aren't affiliated with a particular store would be useful.

Thump on!

[Ddavidson]

You also have Widescreen Review down in Temecula.

I have no problem telling people or forums, but the release date keeps moving and people need a date and the details on what new gear you have. A few photos of the various models along with actual amp and driver specs may help raise some genuine interest.

Answering common questions like will the STF-2 use the VTF-2 driver, and is the STF-2 amp rated at 150w rms? What are the various frequency response ratings of the STF series? For example is the STF-2 frequency response going to be rated 25 Hz to 100 Hz ± 2 dB?

These are the questions that genuine buyers like to have answered well before release. They like this so they may choose to wait for the new model rather than buying another brand which is already on the market.


Ddavidson
(Awaiting that Hsu VTF-1 flagship product)

[cschang]

I agree with Ddavidson.

You need a page on the site with details/specs for the STF series. You've got to make it easy for them to see that these are going to be high value subs.

Comparisons are now starting up between the STF-3 and the SVS PB1-ISD.....the specs are almost identical. Also questions as to why the STF-3 was tuned to max output as oppose to max extension.

People are interested, so now you have to show that the interest is justified.

[spiffnme]

Yep, yep, yep...those STF subs need their own page on your site! You can't find them!

I also second the idea of your next "open house" being on a weekend. I (and I'm sure most everyone else) can't get all the way down to your place during weekday rush hour. If it were a Saturday or Sunday I'd be there!

btw...still LOVING my VTF-2!

[Ddavidson]

Comparisons are now starting up between the STF-3 and the SVS PB1-ISD

I have seen lots of talk on this as well. It is obvious that no one seems to know what Hsu is doing, so its up to Hsu to tell them. I mean the release is not months away so whats the secret? I must admit that Svs is doing a great job with re-inventing its models. The PB2-Ultra is going a little like the Digital Drive Velodynes and having a parametric EQ built in. I admit they seem very clever with the marketing. With all the new finishes they now have on offer they are attacking the market with great vigor, especially for a company that is smaller than even Hsu.

Ddavidson

[cschang]

Is SVS really smaller than Hsu? In terms of revenue? Number of employees?

[Jon R]

Guys, these are all great points. I am a newbie to this board, and have been reading up on the HSU subs for some time now. I can speak a bit to the effect of the secrecy (or lack of publicity depending on how you look at it) of the STF series on potential customers.

I was strongly considering the STF-2 or STF-3 back when I thought the new STF subs were coming out in September or early October. Then, when all of a sudden, the October 1 date on this website was mysteriously changed to October 31, I started looking closer at the SVS PB1-ISD. You know how hard it is to keep waiting for a new piece of HT equipment once you decide to pull the trigger. :)

Anyway, with HSU's current offerings, the $600 PB1-ISD is significantly cheaper than the VTF-3. And the performance would be expected to be pretty comparable. So, in that battle, I'd lean towards the SVS. But, the STF-3 would be priced comparably to the SVS, and who knows which would win that battle. But, with the delay, and lack of any real detailed information about the STF subs, I am sure I am not the only one now looking closer at SVS.

As HSU loyalists, I think you guys are right on about the need for HSU to be more forthcoming about the STF series. The SVS PB1-ISD looks really impressive, and will surely lure lots of people on the fence about SVS vs. HSU over to SVS. Just my .02 cents.

[cschang]

Jon R,

You are good example of what is lacking in Hsu marketing. You made some great points.

Did you know that the VTF-3 in max extension plays flat to 18hz? Can the PB1-ISD do that? This is something that can be easily played upon in marketing.

What can differentiate the STF-3 from the PB1-ISD?

[Jon R]

Curtis,

In response to your first question, I do know that the VTF-3 can play flat to 18hz, while the PB1-ISD goes down to 22Hz. However, to me, the price difference between the two overshadows the small boost in performance. That is where the STF-3 would come in to play, since it will be priced right around the PB1-ISD.

Now, in my particular case, I certainly can't blame my leaning towards SVS all on HSU's marketing. I'm a fickle consumer. :) In the past few weeks, at different times, I have been "decided" on the VTF-2, STF-2, STF-3 and PB1-ISD. I can justify in my own mind at any different time the benefits of going with any of those models.

But, I do still stick with my prior post that the lack of up-front information from HSU is working against them in my case and I'm sure some others. They obviously have their own corporate necessities and timing, so I'm sure they have a reason for pushing back the release of the STF subs. But, they'll lose me, mainly because I am in the purchasing mode right now. In a couple of months, HSU will no doubt be able to put up a strong fight with SVS's recent offerings with their own new offerings.

In reality, the beauty is, SVS and HSU both seem to be outstanding companies with great products. While that makes it tough to decide between them sometimes, it is a nice dilemma to have for a consumer.

[cschang]

Jon.

Totally understood. I was just wondering if the information was easy for you to find.

Your particular case is not unique. There are not enough differentiaters for the products. Why one over the other? In reading everything...they truly are all very similar. It really is too bad you can not hear the two side by side. When that is done, there are differences. There seems to be only one spec that looks different. Hsu specs to +/- 1db, wheras SVS specs to +/- 3db. I think a lot of people over look that.

The decision is agonizing isn't it? To be honest, from reading everything on the web, I was torn between Hsu and SVS. What made my decision easier was the fact that Hsu is only 40 minutes from me.

-curtis

[Michael Bain]

The first mistake is to assume that the VTF-3 and PSB-ISD are similar. I will guarantee that if you listened to both side by side, you wouldn't say that. The Hsu is more musical, cleaner, and definitely plays flatter with lower frequency response. Well that's my opinion, and the overwhelming opinion of people who have listened to Hsu VTF-3 against PSB-ISD and CS/PCi/+.

The beautiful thing is that the STF-3 is almost equivalent to a VTF-3 in maximum output configuration. This is the preferred mode for most. The VTF-3 in maximum configuration has response flat to 20Hz, and it is not marketing fluff! There is not much more we need to know about the STF-3. We know the dimensions, 12 inch driver, bash amp (that has better design than SVS probably), 4 inch port. Things like specific driver and amp parameters Hsu will not give out because the others will try to reverse engineer his products.

[Ddavidson]

Also questions as to why the STF-3 was tuned to max output as oppose to max extension.


As it is more or less a physical copy of a VTF-3R and probably 98% of a VTF-3's are set for max extension mode I think people will more easily purchace the STF-3 if it is setup for 18Hz like the VTF-3. After all most rooms have massive reinforcement, so this means that the output for most people will be more than high enough. Looking at the forum talk its obvious that Hsu should offer a 18Hz bottom setting on the STF-3. If they do they will steal sales from things like the very popular SVS PB1-ISD.

Jon R,

You are good example of what is lacking in Hsu marketing. You made some great points.
I agree Jon. I think Hsu is loosing new and even some old customers - not because of a bad product (it's brilliant as owners know) but because of the lack of marketing. Every company has to get out and has to sell itself and its products and then plug the obvious gaps in its line-up. Hsu just have to know that us consumers are not mind readers and we can not sit and wait forever for info on upcoming models. They have to play the publicity game and get customers in the door, not let them drift away to other brands and offereings. Its a wake up call, yet it is obviously one that Hsu are not responding to fast enough.

Even Mr Hall from Velodyne is pounding the internet forum pavement to market their new Digital Drive subwoofers. Hsu need to learn the internet market is enormous and they have had the inside running yet let it slip through their fingers while others are running with it and banking the missed Hsu profits along the way.

People are getting smarter in 2003 and when making any purchaces they jump on the modern shopping tool "The Internet". Why Hsu thinks the market is retail is beyond me as it sure seems like more people are getting online and saving money on almost all items you can buy at any type of store. No good blaming the market for lack of sales when bad marketing is holding sales back.


Is SVS really smaller than Hsu? In terms of revenue? Number of employees?

I do not know exactly but Svs have admited several times that they are a smaller operation. Svs was only two people and finally jumped up to four not so far back. I can not remember what Tom said it is today but its not a lot, Svs keep say they are not even a blip on the Hsu radar, but at the rate its going with its excellent direct marketing, its going to be much bigger very soon. With an ever expanding range of subwoofers its easy to see them getting into a powerful market share. Now they are spreading the rumor that Hsu is copying the PB1-ISD with the STF-3.

They just market so well by finding holes in other peoples marketing and promoting it against the opposing brands. They are very quick at putting things into action. Its a very smart business actually. Blind Freddy can see what they are doing, yet we have opposing brands watching them while still sitting on their hands letting them take what they want. The even more crazy thing is some opposing players are blaming everything but the real marketing issue (or lack of) by saying the direct market has hit some sort of peak. Its ironic that the answer according to some is to go into the far more competitive retail world. Obviously the heat and dollar income ceiling in the direct market fire has lead to this great marketing and profit move (going retail).

What I find is even more laughable (and a very silly move IMO) is that Svs are now looking at doing it to Hsu yet again, but this time in the retail stores that Hsu is aiming at. They are in some serious talks and are looking at carbon copying Hsu by allowing some models to be sold into retail stores to compete against Hsu. They are soon to get some mainstream magazine press with reviews, so its interesting times ahead for what was a garage operation. The latest John E. Johnson, Jr pro-review of the "B4-Plus" shows some good figures (for an outside test) at very low distortion "40 Hz at 100 dB produced only 1.2% THD. Maximum output was 122 dB".

If its not already obvious Svs basically have been riding the good Hsu publicity trail since Svs began. They do this by offering more for less. It has created a marketing machine based off missing models and missing features from other brands.

Hsu could shut the door but they choose not to for some reason?

Ddavidson
(Awaiting that Hsu VTF-1 flagship product - and "No" I am not buying an Svs)

[Michael Bain]

Are they really trying to claim that the STF-3 is a copy of their PSB-ISD? If so, that is one of the most comical things I have read in a long time! The VTF-3 and VTF-2 were available before any SVS PSB, and the STF-3 is similar to a VTF-3 without the variable tune. To a casual reader, SVS can probably use this as marketing even though the reality is the reverse of what they claim. Hsu had internet direct selling ported TN and VTF products years before SVS even started operations in their garage (or maybe their basement?).

Speaking of distortion numbers, the very very expensive (at $3500 including amp, with no purpose built amp, and higher price than 4 TN1220HO and 2 500w Hsu's!) and big SVS had poor measurement at 15Hz (the reviewer said that it had very high THD at that frequency). Also, the frequency response looks to drop sharply below 50Hz. I would love to see a future Hsu flagship in such a test, because you know how low distortion the Hsu's have. It is amazing to see how well the overachiever VTF-2 does. The Audio Critic tests (the VTF-2!):

The nearfield distortion of a 50 Hz tone at a 1-meter SPL of approximately 100 dB was 0.63%. At 40 Hz and approximately 95 dB it was 1.6%. The 30 Hz measurement was made at a 2-meter SPL of approximately 100 dB because the output appeared to be higher at 2 meters than at 1 meter. The distortion was only 1.7%! These are brilliant results. The subwoofer is not only deep and flat in response but also exceptionally clean.

[Lwang]

With Dr. Hsu's not just being another plug in the number into the equation subwoofer designer, but also having the expertise in design of electronics to integrate with his subwoofer. Maybe he should try to couple more tightly between the amp and sub. I know Hsu utilizes an integrator in their amp in conjunction with the overdamped alignment of the subwoofer, class-A adj high/low pass xo & dual rail power supply, but how about other things that no DIY guys could do when throwing components together. Things like force feedback, current servo, dynamic max output/extension switching or whatever else that could benefit from a tighter integration between the electronic and mechanical components.

I don't know if these custom designed component would drive the cost to high, but I'm sure those prison labors utilized from globalization could lower the cost.

[Jon R]

In response to Michael's original post above about comparisons between the VTF-3 and PB1, I don't own an SVS or HSU, nor have I ever heard one (that's why I want to buy one :) ). But, in reading many posts and reviews on forums, I haven't seen the consensus you talk about in favor of the HSU. Not that I've seen a consensus in favor of the SVS. In fact, I have found very few head-to-head comparisons between HSU and SVS (which has made my decision even harder), but fwiw, the one I did see on ecoustics did give the overall nod to the SVS 25-31.

And yes, we do know the basic specs of the STF series. Sure. But, is there a splashy information page with pictures and info? Have they been out there promoting the things? Are they taking pre-orders? This is all stuff that SVS has down pat, and let's face it, it works.

Ddavidson raises again the issue of how HSU is tuning the STF-3. I don't know the reason HSU chose to go with the maximum output mode, but tuning it to the extension mode would have given it an immediate edge in the numbers vs. the SVS.

I think this is all interesting stuff, and it shows how tough it is to be in the internet-direct business. But, I do think HSU is losing the marketing battle to SVS, and with the products so similar and highly regarded, that could be tough to overcome. We'll see, though. The smart thing for consumers like me who have not purchased yet, would be to wait for the STF to come out, and then see real-world descriptions of it and comparisons. But, again, HSU's silence is making that hard to do. Who knows if the October 31 date on this website will suddenly change to December 1 one day. Upgradeitis can't wait that long. :)

[Ddavidson]

I would love to see a future Hsu flagship in such a test, because you know how low distortion the Hsu's have. It is amazing to see how well the overachiever VTF-2 does. The Audio Critic tests (the VTF-2!):
Yes that is the one we need. A high output - low distortion Hsu cubed flagship. Now that would keep the opposition brands honest.

That little VTF-2 may seem small to those seeking a HGS18, but its an absolute champ in the performance/value stakes.

big SVS had poor measurement at 15Hz
Let us be fair to Svs here as the test was outside, and the reviewer did not have any foam plugs to lower the enclosure frequency (all measurements where taken in the 25 Hz extension mode). All ports where open and as such the 15 Hz result would have suffered in both output and distortion levels. Plugging two ports would have lowered the tune of the enclosure to about 16 Hz.

With Dr. Hsu's not just being another plug in the number into the equation subwoofer designer

Things like force feedback, current servo, dynamic max output/extension switching or whatever else that could benefit from a tighter integration between the electronic and mechanical components. I don't know if these custom designed component would drive the cost to high, but I'm sure those prison labors utilized from globalization could lower the cost.
I agree Dr Hsu needs to patent his best design features and get a leg up on the other brands by his better designing talent. Just like Mr Hall did with Velodyne. Playing this very silly hard ball numbers game by entering the retail market is like trying to fly a kite on the East Coast at the moment. Its crazy not to be on top in your current market and yet be seeking to enter a market thats flooded with even more competition.

To me (like Velodyne did originally) this is the main reason why the Hsu flagship needs to be done as a total priority asap. You can feed down off of that flagship as that is the reference. The flagship is not about big sales numbers, rather its about a showcase and pride. Wal-mart subwoofer sales are best left to other less serious about SQ players.
quote]
Are they really trying to claim that the STF-3 is a copy of their PSB-ISD?[/quote]
Yes
To a casual reader, SVS can probably use this as marketing even though the reality is the reverse of what they claim.
Its not what you say but how you say it, and it allows them a way out if confronted by an argument about such a statement. You certainly can overstep the mark if you go from marketing into pure hype and speculation. Its a fine line at times but if you do nothing you will get crushed in the stampede for the cash register.

But, again, HSU's silence is making that hard to do. Who knows if the October 31 date on this website will suddenly change to December 1 one day. Upgradeitis can't wait that long.
That is why this forum should be promoted as a great place to come and tell Hsu what we want. I think Hsu having a conservative approach may be good for those who hate hype, but I can see that it is too conservitive and is hurting them. This STF issue is one they need to sort out now not on the 31st of Oct. People will not wait on a whim and a prayer while being kept like mushrooms.

It is not like no one is ever going to not be able to reverse engineer an STF sub if they really wanted to. Pay you $610 dollars and you can throw it from a plane if you wanted to. Its not like its some vita military encryption technology secret.

Ddavidson

[Michael Bain]

Things will become more lucid as you think more about it, jon. I do not see too many Hsu customers in general speaking on the internet, so that is why you do not see it. Talk to some of the experienced people in the industry who have listened to both SVS and Hsu (including the founders of Onix Rockets/AV123.com and Ascend Acoustics), and you will see what they say regarding these two brands. There are other people on the internet that have concurred about the sound quality of the Hsu products in comparison to SVS. And the ecoustics review (one of the most amateur and silly reviews I have seen too) described the VTF-3 as being more accurate with classical music and playing much lower (and flatter) in response than the larger SVS! Read in between the lines and things become more clear. Making a subwoofer is not rocket science, but there is a bit of delicacy and solid engineering that is involved that pushes some brands over the others with respect to sound quality, regardless of what the marketing directors of the other companies tell you.

There are some pictures of the STF-1. If you know about Hsu the man, you know that he does not like to boast or draw attention to any of his products that are not yet released. He puts all his efforts into making the best possible product that he can without the hype and hyperbole. If the STF design needs an extra month or two to become even more solid and even more polished, then why not? Most people are going to keep the thing for years to come.

[Michael Bain]

You are certainly right Ddavidson that all the ports were open. Yet that is the optimal tune of that product! And each time a port is plugged, that sub will lose a lot in max output capabilities (remember that the port area is spread between four drivers, so there is at most four inches diameter of port area per driver, and each time a port is plugged reduces effective port area by about 25%!). Any other tuning point is more for marketing and testing purposes, at least that's what I think. Note that there is no purpose built amp for the B4+ product. The only solution to get lower tune is to plug the port, almost like an afterthought in the design (and even with all ports open, the frequency response seems to drop like a brick below 50Hz). Without careful and clever engineering on both the physical box and the amplifier, as on Hsu's own VTF series, then response linearity will generally not be maintained when the sub is changed to a sub-optimal tune. This is one of the subtle aspects of Variable Tuning, an area where Hsu has a major advantage imo. Most people do not realize this because they tend to see the marketing conquests of the competitors spouting general amp watts and driver and enclosure size (bigger is always better, most people erroneously think) without really giving good and solid design information.

[Michael Bain]

As I think about it more, the Hsu VTF-3 and SVS PSB-ISD are more dissimilar than not! The VTF-3 has a much much better 12 inch driver, a better quality amp, and a overdamped bass reflex design of 6th order. And while the VTF-3 with all ports open supposedly has the same tune (22Hz) as the PSB-ISD, the VTF-3 actually has much better frequency response linearity in this mode and it plays with a 1db (+/-) frequency response margin to 20Hz! The moral of the story is that all products are not created equal, and will not respond equally, even if they are said to have the same point of tuning (ie, there is a significant difference between advertising a tune of 20Hz vs a flat response and good linearity at 20Hz). The STF-3 should essentially have the same advantages but with a new bash amp and without the variable tuning. These subtle points may not get touched upon too much on the internet, but they are nevertheless important differentiating design elements.

[Sasha_G]

Man, have things been busy in the office. We got all the nitty gritty stuff involved in shipping a new product. It’s exhilarating, exciting, and exhausting. Silk screening, manuals, box design, and safety certification take extra time. I have to do quite a bit of work, but Dr. Hsu is the person who is ultimately responsible and takes on the widest variety of tasks.

We serve you guys, so starting in October I’ll be focusing solely on providing all the pictures you want and information on the STF line and Ventriloquist. Let’s call it “marketing”, if you want.

Guys, please keep the comparisons with SVS to a minimum. I’ve heard their stuff and don’t think their products are worth any undue attention on our forum. Let's let the newbies and fanboys on the other forums talk their talk, but when the end of the day comes, marketing doesn’t make a subwoofer sound better. There are too many who act like they know, when never question the information fed to them.

I'll give you one bit of info on what happens on the forums: I have been told by knowledgable sources that a number of companies use viral marketing firms to plant "sneezers" and others who try to severely criticize and supress opposing viewpoints. If you ever feel your point of view--your opinion-- is being unduly criticized on the other forums, don't worry about what they say. In the long run, the truth too important. We aren't going to live forever, and life is too short not to say your mind --even if you have to deal with single minded true believers and typists for hire.

[Audio72]

but when the end of the day comes, marketing doesn’t make a subwoofer sound better.

:D :D :D

[tdekany]

I haven't been here for awhile but I can't believe what I am reading! I thought you guys were owners or future customers of HSU subs because you all appreciated the very hard work the Dr put into everyone of his products that produces an extremely musical sub that not only sounds great but tests as well? While I know "0" about SVS like who is their designer etc... (did look at their site once and read the info) how can you whine here like big babies? Go get an SVS sub then just because you like their marketing plan. That is a nice way to choose a sub. I feel sad for Dr Hsu - he must feel humiliated. Here is a genious who designs OUTSTANDING products that we can actually afford & in return you are judging all his moves (or lack of) about his latest products. Creating a product of any kind takes tons of time and effort. And no, to design a sub is not easy - not one that gives you goose bumps! That is why HSU subs beat pretty much everything out there - regardless of how much money big companies put into their new products.

Don't you think the Dr would want to have sold a thousand units by now?

As far as not giving away info about the products?

When was the last time you posted the date & time when you were going to your bank to deposit cash?

Give some credit to Dr Hsu. He is smarter then all of us.

If you think you know so much about marketing and designing a sub start your own company or go work for Pioneer.


Originally posted by Sasha_G
Man, have things been busy in the office. We got all the nitty gritty stuff involved in shipping a new product. It’s exhilarating, exciting, and exhausting. Silk screening, manuals, box design, and safety certification take extra time. I have to do quite a bit of work, but Dr. Hsu is the person who is ultimately responsible and takes on the widest variety of tasks.

We serve you guys, so starting in October I’ll be focusing solely on providing all the pictures you want and information on the STF line and Ventriloquist. Let’s call it “marketing”, if you want.

Guys, please keep the comparisons with SVS to a minimum. I’ve heard their stuff and don’t think their products are worth any undue attention on our forum. Let's let the newbies and fanboys on the other forums talk their talk, but when the end of the day comes, marketing doesn’t make a subwoofer sound better. There are too many who act like they know, when never question the information fed to them.

I'll give you one bit of info on what happens on the forums: I have been told by knowledgable sources that a number of companies use viral marketing firms to plant "sneezers" and others who try to severely criticize and supress opposing viewpoints. If you ever feel your point of view--your opinion-- is being unduly criticized, don't worry about what they say. In the long run, the truth too important. We aren't going to live forever, and life is too short not to say your mind --even if you have to deal with single minded true believers and typists for hire.

[Sasha_G]

tdekany.
We appreciate your feedback. Its not everyday that someone has the courage to say what they truly feel.

As far as my statment earlier in this thread, all I'm saying is that people should be very careful about who they trust on the internet forums. It is true that marketing is being used aggresively and in subtle, secret ways, and is hurting the credibility of some of the bigger forums on the net.

In addition to the marketing, there are those who I call "newbies" and "fanboys", who just repeat back what they've been told on the forums, in an effort to get an ego boost from giving good advice. Too many times, this advice isn't backed up by any experience, yet it still creates the illusion that it is.

On our forum here at hsuresearch.com, we have some control over what gets said, and we are in the business of selling our own products. We reserve to delete posts that we think are serving this purpose. For that reason, we don't want too many comparisons with other products that would only serve to advertise other brands. We prefer to get comparisons by (A) people we trust, (B) people who have established reputations, or (C) people who are professional reviewers. One comparison we do like was done Barry Barnes and some of his friends who owned both HSU and SVS. Both subwoofers were played side by side using "blind listening" tests. You can read the entire thead here:

http://www.hometheaterforum.com/htforum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=65441

Well, to make a long thread short, Barry and his friends all felt that the Hsu was more "musical". He described it as "delicious to listen to. It's so articulate with the music...and at the same time with the LFE material it just "rips you up". When Barry aggresively defended his opinion (and that of his friends), he was quickly BANNED from hometheaterforum.com and repremanded for being disrespectful. For those that do not know, hometheaterforum.com will not accept advertising from any other subwoofer company besides their "official subwoofer", which is currently SVS. I tried to buy advertising once before, and was refused.

Many people compare our products with SVS who haven't heard both, which we don't like. I personally think there is some overlaping functionality, but I've heard their stuff and their products sound very different. The truth is, we came out with tube subwoofers for home theater years before they were selling theirs on their website, and before Dana Audio also. (incedentally, The Secrets of Home Theater and Hi Fi website has an article with Ron Stimpson using our drivers to make a tube sub many years earlier http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_6_3/diy-11-sonotube-subwoofer-september-99.html ). We were doing variable tuning years before they sold their models with port plugging (incedentally, port plugging itself isn't the same thing as our variable tuning). We even had a black speckled poly coat that we were using for years that they started to use on their box subs. Our VTF-3 came out long before their box sub with very similar dimensions, and anybody saying that the STF-3 is a copy of their sub makes me laugh. The SVS folks have long compared their subs to ours. Just do a search on the hometheaterforum.com and you will see this. However, I don't feel that comparison are appropriate on our forum, because it just draws more attention to them. I'd rather let them do their thing, and have people let us do ours. I'd rather people perceived our products as very different. I have heard their stuff and think they sound very "different."

Anyhow, this whole thread has started to move away from the STF Release night topic, so I'll be bringing it back with some pictures and revised STF specs soon.

Sasha

[Michael Bain]

I take it that when you say the SVS products sound "different" than yours, you mean worse! :D :D :D Ok, ok, maybe you just mean that you are very pleased with the way Hsu Research subwoofers sound in comparison to SVS?

Sadly, sound quality is not even mentioned when you browse at a place like that forum you linked.

I think you should welcome the talk about Hsu against SVS at this forum. If you don't speak up, than SVS will spout dubious information about your products vs their products on the internet (I know they have done something like this in the past)! There is more honest and correct information here about your products than anywhere else. It is easy to get caught up in SVS's marketing on the internet, but here people see through that. Reading the information here and reading the information in your reviews and reading the truthful reviews on the internet, I can say almost without a doubt that your products have better sound quality than SVS at every price chategory! This scenario makes perfect sense to me. Your company is much more mature, your employees appear to have a better ear for music, and the founder of your company-DR HSU-is an undeniable genius in engineering!

[Michael Bain]

One thing in particular that struck me about your subs is the ultra low distortion and ultra flat response curves! Your smallest VTF-2 (with "only" a 10 inch driver and no more than 150 watts in the amp) had more undistorted output than the 40 inch tall SVS cylinder that Tom Nous. tested (almost miraculous, but attributed to better design)! Your VTF-3 and 1220HO (with "only" 250 watts in the amp) had a flatter response curve and cleaner output than the 46 inch tall SVS! I think that in almost every single review, the HSUs were older version models.

What I suspect is that your well excuted design, overdamped of 6th order, and the special skills of Dr. Hsu is what makes your products stay more linear in response and more clean sounding in output than SVS, even when the Hsu has smaller diminsions and smaller "watts" rating in the amp. The icing on the cake is truly your well-known reputation for superior sound quality over them! At least that is what I think.

Back to the main topic. The STF's will be rollin' soon, and I feel good that you guys will be working on flagship VTF models after that. Keep up the great work, we will cheer you on and support you!

[Sasha_G]

Michael, thanks for your kind words. I guess I should be saying, thanks on behalf of Dr. Hsu. I also agree that ignoring the marketeering of other companies is not the correct thing to do.

Yes, I was very pleased with the differences between SVS tube and our VTF-3 :) We did a side by side "blind listening" comparison, and I thought the VTF-3 sounded tighter, punchier, and more detailed. To my ears, the difference was extremly easy to detect in the blind listening test. I'd rather not go into specifics on the faults of the other product, because such feedback would only help the other company improve their product.

However, we definetly are suspicious when people talk about other products when we don't know who that person is and their reputation. We would want to know about how they did the comparison as well. I will try to think of some forum rules that don't feel too constricting.

[Lwang]

Sasha,

So would the STF-10's 10" woofer be comptable with older subs like VTF-2 or the 10V?

We were doing variable tuning years before they sold their models with port plugging (incedentally, port plugging itself isn't the same thing as our variable tuning).

That is what I mean when I think Hsu should utilize his expertise in electronic design in closer integrating the circuitry with the mechanical aspects. There are surely many possibilities that is possible that would greatly improve the sound quality of the sub (I'm sure one would be tempted to go in the opposite direction, like massive EQing for the sake of a mini cabinet.)

[Sasha_G]

Lwang,

The STF-2 will be using the same driver as the VTF-2, and the STF-3 will be using the same driver as the VTF-3.

The basic driver design is similar to the older models (10V), so as far as I know they can make a very good replacement.