Advice for sub upgrade needed.

[Rafster]

Hello,

I have been a guest for quite some time and decided to register. I currently have an stf-2 in my family room of approx 4500 cu. ft. with openings to other areas.

The STF-2 worked and provided adequate bass for music and HT. I felt though that it needed more.

Given the specs, what sub do you think I should go for?

Looking at the VTF-1 or the VTF2-MK3. What would be the best bang for my buck in this case?

Would like the 3.3 but might be to rich for my taste.

Thanks for the advice :)

Raf

[Pete_Hsu]

Raf, I would definitely go for the VTF-2 MK3, as this sub will this space much more easily than the smaller subs.

Sincerely,

[Rafster]

Thank you for your quick response, Pete. Although I said that space is around 4500 cu ft, the opening to other areas is roughly 4500 cu ft. with a hallway leading to the rooms. House is basically divided by a hallway, with a family room on one side and a formal/receiving room on the other side.

I don't want earth-shaking bass all over the house, but bass that i can hear and feel with some shake in the family room.

I currently have the STF-2 nearfield placed. Do you think the VTF-2 MK3 would be enough? I would like more but budget constraints limit me.

Thanks :)

[bpmaxorz]

Have you considered doubling-up with another STF-2? That would add a considerable amount of "umph" to the volume, and might provide for greater placement flexibility.

[Rafster]

Thanks for your reply. I thought about that and ran into space and placement requirements and the WAF :rolleyes: . Besides, I just sold the STF-2 today, so I no longer have it.

I was thinking of getting a bigger sub like the VTF-2 MK3. I am sure that this would give me more "umph" as I was happy with the STF-2 being a 10 inch.

If anything, I always wondered what a 12 inch would sound like in my setting.

Rafster

[Rafster]

I am close to purchasing the VTF2-MK3. To all who have this sub, what usually sounds better in your setup? Max Extension or Max Output?

Pete, does the purchase come with the test CD?

Thanks :)

[Yan]

Yes! I am proud fresh owner of VTF 2.3
See my posts here http://forum.hsuresearch.com/showthread.php?t=20792
For my room and music/movie ratio equal to 90/10 ME sounds depper, softer, and more musical then MO It' using DBX Drive rack PA+
But work for calibration my sound environment including PIONEER 9040THX(which I recieved just day before yesterday, see my last post there) is far from completion. But so far ME still sounds better (for me) than MO.
And yes the VTF 2.3 does come with the test CD.

[Rafster]

Hi Yan,

I have seen your setup, looks great. How do the HB's and HC sound. I would like to get those set of speakers but I guess those will have to wait.

My setup is simple. I run a 5.1 setup with a Denon 2105 as my receiver. I have the old infinity RS5 for my mains, Infinity CC3 for my center and Infinity RS3 for my surrounds.

They still sound great but would wonder how HSU's bookshelfs sound with the horns.

I guess I will be experimenting with whay sounds good for my setup, room size and acoustics.

I pretty mch listen to 60% music and 40% HT. My previous STF-2 sounded great for music, a tad lacking in HT.

My next step is to order the VTF2.3, missed the sub earlier while watching Quantum of Solace on a 5.0.

I'll let you all know what my first impressions are.

Raf :)

[Rafster]

Hi Pete,

I have had the vtf2-mk3 for about 3 weeks now and all I have to say is WOW :eek:. The shear size of this thing caught me a little off guard, but no worries as it fits nicely in the corner between two full size couches. The WAF was great. Loved the satin color. Packaging was excellent. This is just the physical side of the unit.

I have set this up for max extension with my receiver denon avr-2105 sub setting xover at 80. Played a little bossanova and it just sounded great. there was some good bass that did not sound boomy, but tight. bass at the right time blending well with the rest of the instruments that you can hear.

I watched the movie IRON MAN and ....BAAMMM...holy @$#! :eek: ! I could not believe the bass that came out from the various scenes, especially the one where he escapes with his crude version1.0 iron man suit. That was pretty awesome.

Playing the test CD that featured the various ranges from 16 to 200 hz, my daughter and wife thought the house was going to come down in shambles as it was beginning to shake the walls. I did find out the "loose" areas of the house as they were vibrating with all the sound and sir pressure it was producing at low level from 16 to the 20 hz range.

I am so happy with the unit and i am sure that this will give me music and HT bliss for many years to come. I will definitely recommend HSU to all my friends that might be in the search for a good sub.

Thank you HSU and your team for an excellent product. Now I have to find the time to watch all the movies and listen to more music (CD's) and enjoy what I might have missed...nice, clean, tight bass :)

Again, thank you for creating such a wonderful product.

[monkuboy]

Have you considered doubling-up with another STF-2? That would add a considerable amount of "umph" to the volume, and might provide for greater placement flexibility.

Pete and the others, what do you think of that idea? I have an STF-2 and am wondering what the difference would be in getting another STF-2 versus a larger model from the VTF series. I am not a huge bassoholic, lol.. that is, I prefer balance over making the house shake just for the sake of it. Bass is more important to me in music than HT.
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[shadyJ]

I recommend moving up to a more powerful model. I used to have a STF2, and then I purchased the VTF3. It is better in every respect. The bass is deeper, realer, smoother, and more effortless. Adding a STF2 will only get you more of the same, and while that isn't a bad thing, getting a more powerful model will get you not only more quantity but more quality as well.

[monkuboy]

I recommend moving up to a more powerful model. I used to have a STF2, and then I purchased the VTF3. It is better in every respect. The bass is deeper, realer, smoother, and more effortless. Adding a STF2 will only get you more of the same, and while that isn't a bad thing, getting a more powerful model will get you not only more quantity but more quality as well.

Thanks for your input. So I see that the VTF3 is not a down-firing model but the speaker faces out from the side. Is it more finicky with respect to placement? I would think since the speaker faces out from the side and the ports are in the back that it might be more difficult to place in a room. I don't have that much leeway where my setup is.
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[Pete_Hsu]

Hi monkuboy,

Pete and the others, what do you think of that idea? I have an STF-2 and am wondering what the difference would be in getting another STF-2 versus a larger model from the VTF series. I am not a huge bassoholic, lol.. that is, I prefer balance over making the house shake just for the sake of it. Bass is more important to me in music than HT.

Where is your current subwoofer placed, and what placement flexibility do you have when adding a second subwoofer? Do you have a fairly symmetrical room layout?

Trying to choose between adding a second unit vs upgrading to a single larger unit is not always an easy nor clear cut choice. The second subwoofer will give much higher headroom and lower distortion, in addition to the potential to smooth out in-room frequency response. Upgrading to a more powerful subwoofer will also give much higher headroom, in addition to deeper bass extension. So if you don't feel the need for deeper bass extension, and would rather go for the lower distortion and smoother response, then adding a second sub may actually be the way to go, especially for a system that is used heavily for music (which doesn't have very much ultra deep bass content in the first place).

Sincerely,

[monkuboy]

Hi monkuboy,



Where is your current subwoofer placed, and what placement flexibility do you have when adding a second subwoofer? Do you have a fairly symmetrical room layout?

Trying to choose between adding a second unit vs upgrading to a single larger unit is not always an easy nor clear cut choice. The second subwoofer will give much higher headroom and lower distortion, in addition to the potential to smooth out in-room frequency response. Upgrading to a more powerful subwoofer will also give much higher headroom, in addition to deeper bass extension. So if you don't feel the need for deeper bass extension, and would rather go for the lower distortion and smoother response, then adding a second sub may actually be the way to go, especially for a system that is used heavily for music (which doesn't have very much ultra deep bass content in the first place).

Sincerely,

Thank you for the reply, Pete! Right now the setup is in the family room which is about 14 wide x 19 or 20 deep and 8 high. There is a door on the left side so everything is to the right of that door. The room opens to the kitchen area on the left side. The STF-2 is in the front right corner sitting on an Auralex Gramma. The options for placing a 2nd sub would be behind the left speaker, so it would be next to the doorway, or placing it in the right rear corner of the room (although the front left is the likely location from a practical standpoint). Another possibility is to the left of the doorway in the front. For getting a larger sub and using a single, the option would be the front right corner where the STF-2 is now because it would be too big to fit anywhere else. So what do you think? Thanks!

Oh, and I think the STF-2 does fine for movies (it has enough shakes to it) so I am talking mainly about accurate, realistic bass for listening to two channel music or multi-channel SACD's.
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[Pete_Hsu]

Hey monkuboy,

I would put the second subwoofer in the back right corner of the room. With just a single larger subwoofer, front right corner of the room will be fine.

Thanks

Sincerely,

[monkuboy]

Hey monkuboy,

I would put the second subwoofer in the back right corner of the room. With just a single larger subwoofer, front right corner of the room will be fine.

Thanks

Sincerely,

Thanks, Pete! Well I am just in the thinking phase right now but you know where that usually leads. :D No preference between a larger sub versus another STF-2? I guess the net outlay would be about the same, if I bought a larger one and sold the STF-2, versus buying another STF-2. Thanks!
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[monkuboy]

I have another question, assuming I used two subs (like the STF-2's). Would it be better to use a stereo setup so one sub got the left channel and one the right, or would it be better to use a Y-splitter to send the sub output from the preamp to both subs? I guess if you recommend a sub in the right rear of the room then both subs would be getting a blended signal, right? But I was interested in people's thoughts concerning two subs getting the same signal versus working in stereo.
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[hometheatergeek]

Hello monkuboy,

Bass is mono it is not stereo. There is not a right bass channel nor a left. I have 4 subs (2 ULS-15s and 2 Velodynes) all getting the same signal using three Y adaptors.

Hope this helps.

[Lwang]

Hello monkuboy,

Bass is mono it is not stereo. There is not a right bass channel nor a left. I have 4 subs (2 ULS-15s and 2 Velodynes) all getting the same signal using three Y adaptors.

Hope this helps.
Bass is not mono. It is only mono if you are getting it out of the single channel sub output. Standing in front of a woofer would only shake one side of your face, allowing you to sense their direction, if not aurally. Plus all those nukular blast film footages showed us that ultra low freq shockwaves from their detonation blows things apart directionally. So if you were standing there, you certainly would have know what in what direction something was about to rip you to shreds just a fraction before it does.

[hometheatergeek]

Bass is not mono. It is only mono if you are getting it out of the single channel sub output. Standing in front of a woofer would only shake one side of your face, allowing you to sense their direction, if not aurally. Plus all those nukular blast film footages showed us that ultra low freq shockwaves from their detonation blows things apart directionally. So if you were standing there, you certainly would have know what in what direction something was about to rip you to shreds just a fraction before it does.

Subwoofer frequencies below 250hz are omnidirectional in nature. No true stereo affect. Bass notes above that frequency can be stereo.

http://www.nousaine.com/pdfs/Stereo%20Bass.pdf

And it is spelled nuclear BTW. But thanks for your enthusiasm.

[Lwang]

Subwoofer frequencies below 250hz are omnidirectional in nature. No true stereo affect. Bass notes above that frequency can be stereo.

http://www.nousaine.com/pdfs/Stereo%20Bass.pdf

And it is spelled nuclear BTW. But thanks for your enthusiasm.
Saying freq below 250hz being omnidirectional is incredulous. Any microphone setup 1/2 the sound's wavelength apart would easily be able to pick up the direction at the given frequency.

And Nousaine's 1995 article is just a justfication of corner placed sub vs stereo sub. Nothing about whether it is detectable. There are much research out there on the sound of stereo bass, which even lead companies like Lexicon to introduce Stereo Bass mode for subwoofers, so you don't end up with the bass sound inside your head feeling.

Bose's subwoofers cross over at around 250hz range, and those are the most directional subwoofers in existence.

Plus it is one thing to hear the bass, and another thing to feel the bass. Pressure waves are not omnidirectional, and our body can feel where the pressure is coming from, hence the nukewlar example as such.

[monkuboy]

The reason I asked the question about stereo versus mono subs is because Jim Smith, a person considered to be an expert when it comes to audio system setups, recommends using two subs and having them operate in stereo as opposed to splitting the signal. I am at work right now and his book, "Get Better Sound" is at home so I don't remember his reason for this but he was quite adamant about it. He said it definitely makes a difference.

http://www.getbettersound.com/
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[Bill Mitchell]

One trade-off you have is that there may be no receiver that supports a stereo sub configuration, and hardly any support independent distance/trim/equalization settings for independent subwoofers. The Onkyo TX-NR3007/5007 may be the only ones that offer independent Audyssey equalization settings for two subs.

If you use stereo subs co-located with the mains, you will use the distance settings of the mains as the distances to the subs. The drawback is that you will be running the main signal through the sub, using the sub's crossover to separate the signal out. As I recall, the crossover built into the VTFs is low pass only, i.e., it passes the full range signal to the mains. So you can use it to fill in below the mains, but not to replace the bottom end of the mains' response. Worse, receiver equalization systems such as Audyssey provide much higher resolution filters for subs connected directly to the receiver. You lose these when running the main signal to the high level connections on the sub; you benefit only from the receiver's equalization for front speakers.

For most receivers that offer multiple sub connections, these are just the equivalent of Y connectors. So you do not have independent distance adjustments, although trim you can balance using the subs' controls themselves. And the receiver will do one equalization of the subs as a group, although some will argue this works out best in practice anyway.

There are more expensive products designed just for the problem of equalizing multiple subs.

I have no hands-on experience with any of these approaches; I opted for just one VTF3-Mk3 to fill my room.

[monkuboy]

Thanks, Bill, for the very informative reply. That makes a lot of sense! And it is stuff I didn't really consider before. That was very understandable, too. Thanks!
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[Lwang]

The reason I asked the question about stereo versus mono subs is because Jim Smith, a person considered to be an expert when it comes to audio system setups, recommends using two subs and having them operate in stereo as opposed to splitting the signal. I am at work right now and his book, "Get Better Sound" is at home so I don't remember his reason for this but he was quite adamant about it. He said it definitely makes a difference.

http://www.getbettersound.com/You are referencing opinion of someone that's in the high end audio field. The HT world is not about perception of sound to the n'th degree (hence stereo bass), but are about quantifiable parameters, hence SPL, dBs and more dBs.

[cocobeli]

Back when I got my original subwoofers, HRSW10s, I experimented with stereo bass. After all, having two subs just about demanded it. ;) In the end, I just couldn’t tell any difference.

I have no doubt that the environment can come into play. I fiddled with what few locations I had available but none of it mattered. I do think, however, that another factor may well have been on play as well: is there really any source of stereo bass?

I did manage to identify a couple of CDs that displayed some bass stereo. (I low-passed the audio and fed that into a ‘scope.) Clearly, the performance venue and mic placement come into play. I’d suspect stereo bass in a studio setting is rare at best.

For me, any tiny improvement I’d get from chasing stereo bass just wasn’t worth the effort. I feel I get more mileage for the effort using dual subs to smooth room response.

[Pete_Hsu]

Technically there is such a thing as stereo bass. All this means is that there is discrete low frequency content for both the left and right main channels. That said, it is debateable how much of a difference there is between stereo and mono bass when the subwoofers are crossed over at, say, 80Hz or lower. Bass below 80Hz tends to be fairly non-directional (even when the subwoofer is placed in the nearfield), so one has to wonder whether stereo bass will offer tangible benefits vs mono bass when running two subwoofers with an 80Hz low-pass crossover. Sometime later in the year I will try it out in the demo room with some participants (including Dr. Hsu, he he) to see if they can notice any difference.

[Lwang]

Back in the old days, bass was mixed down to mono so as not to overload the LP's grooves. Not sure if the recording engineers are still performing that practice given there is no need for it with discrete channel audio. Multi-mic'd recording might have more potential for stereo bass given the placement of the instrument might be dictated by their actual position in the stage.

Lexicon has done alot of study on low freq reproductions inside a room and found out that bass reproductions in a room always sounds like it is coming from the center of the head, but when hearing the same music in a venue, it does not sound like that. They use multiple subwoofer not to reproduce stereo bass, but to create a spatial envelopment and externalized bass that is not possible with a single subwoofer.

[hometheatergeek]

Back in the old days, bass was mixed down to mono so as not to overload the LP's grooves. Not sure if the recording engineers are still performing that practice given there is no need for it with discrete channel audio. Multi-mic'd recording might have more potential for stereo bass given the placement of the instrument might be dictated by their actual position in the stage.

Lexicon has done alot of study on low freq reproductions inside a room and found out that bass reproductions in a room always sounds like it is coming from the center of the head, but when hearing the same music in a venue, it does not sound like that. They use multiple subwoofer not to reproduce stereo bass, but to create a spatial envelopment and externalized bass that is not possible with a single subwoofer.

This was also my understanding. That was why I posted what I posted. I also know that mosts AVRs with two outputs are not usually stereo outputs.

So with that said I want to apologize to monkuboy for posting a half ass response to his question. And thanks to Lwang, Bill and Pete for clarifying the question posted. :o