Still no Vtf-3's in stock, now delayed even more?

[Ddavidson]

I have a good friend who has for almost several month's wanted to get a Vtf-3 just like mine, problem is you have had no stock for a long time. I now also see you have pushed back the arrival of new stock of the Vtf-3 at least until November.Why so long a wait on what is a strong and important subwoofer?



Ddavidson

[Sasha_G]

The VTF-3s will arrive along with the other new models, and will come with some undisclosed upgrades.

[Ddavidson]

Thanks Sasha.He will no doubt get a Vtf-3 since the Stf-3 is now 25Hz limited in the first production run, especially when compared to the 18Hz setting of the Vtf-3.


Ddavidson

[Michael Bain]

Not limit of 25Hz, just flat to 25Hz! Knowing and hearing Hsu products in the past, that spec is conservative, and it's certainly much more accurate than the claims that most other companies put forth in terms of low end response. You wouldn't believe how many times I have seen subs that are supposed to be tuned very low - 22Hz, 20Hz, 18Hz, 16Hz et all - even from other internet companies, that do not even come close to these numbers. The rating systems are almost becoming a joke because of these other companies marketing departments, and Hsu is one of the very few out there who is even honest about it and manages to consistently meet and exceed his own spec.

[tdekany]

Originally posted by Sasha_G
The VTF-3s will arrive along with the other new models, and will come with some undisclosed upgrades.

No need to respond Sasha - I will guess! More power????:D :D

[Ddavidson]

The rating systems are almost becoming a joke because of these other companies marketing departments, and Hsu is one of the very few out there who is even honest about it and manages to consistently meet and exceed his own spec.

I agree,but as anyone with decent hearing knows,who really cares about what other companies lie about on their spec sheets.That is not relative when I talk about the spec of the Stf-3 being limited.When I talk about the Stf-3 being limited to 25Hz, I am of course talking about it being flat to 25Hz like the Stf-2 and Vtf-2.The comparision is to the other Hsu models not other brands. As a Vtf-2 and Vtf-3 owner its obvious that Hsu is the reference for me.

As far as the majority of Hsu owners seem to be concerned,the flat to 25Hz is the wrong configuration for a 12" Hsu subwoofer especially considering its in a cabinet,amplifier and port size of the Vtf-3.It is a very bad mistake to limit what could be Hsu's biggest winner yet.Making it match the max extension mode of the Vtf-3 is the correct decision as it will obviously wipe the market floor at $610.Its easy enough for Hsu to do this as its basically a fixed frequency Vtf-3 in a vinyl wrap that is manufactured in China.

Ddavidson

[Michael Bain]

What may be nice is to have two options with the STF-3. Option for the maximum amount of extension or maximum amount of output, one or the other. There is a tradeoff no matter what you do. Lower the tune, lose some of that extra output advantage. Raise the tune, lose some of that extra extension advantage. Or just get a VTF and have both options at the same time.

[Ddavidson]

Michael it would seem one of the main reasons why the Stf series was started was that Hsu found out that most people preferred the one mode of operation all the time. That just happens to be - the deep bass mode (on both the Vtf-3 and Vtf-2). If the Stf-3 could play flat to 10 Hz then I guarantee that is the setting that people would want as well. Being realistic (about loud things) its clear that most people find that both the Vtf-2 and Vtf-3 play much louder than they will ever use in real life listening at home. It is only those crazy 170 dB+ car audio guys or those with a ballroom in their house that may find things lacking. Building subwoofers for flat deep extension with ultra low distortion is where Hsu should concentrate its future, not on max output. My main aim in putting my systems together is low distortion, and that is why the long lost Vtf-1 (2 x 12" + 1000w amp) was looking so good. It is that low distortion that was the main dream of mine and why I wanted to get Hsu to build the flagship Vtf-1. Output is relative and not a driver in my buying. The Stf-3 should become an 18 Hz carbon copy of the Vtf-3 in deep extension mode.That is the real competition killer especially at only $610.

Mark my words (after it gets released) at 25 Hz it will get lost in the crowd.
Yet set at the Vtf-3's max extension mode (18 Hz) its a total killer combo.

Ddavidson

[spiffnme]

I couldn't agree more. A single tuned Hsu sub that was clean down to 18hz at $610 would be great.

25hz? I'm not so hot about.

[Lwang]

Hsu's insistence on the tight specification that is even beyond conservative industry standard will only hurt itself. People looking for a sub will only look at the 25hz number instead of the -3, -4 or -6dB number.

Although I do have to admit that many manufacturers out there aren't even close to their specification, even when the loosest tolerance is applied to it. They are hoping on low freq room gain and hopefully your room dimension to boost what is lacking in their low freq extension.

[spiffnme]

But like you said...the majority of people buying subs look at ONE number. How low can it go?

That 25hz is going to stick out like a sore thumb, and hurt sales. Whether or not you get much lower numbers in real life use, doesn't matter.

[Ddavidson]

I am all for Hsu keeping its conservative and more honest spec sheets.But I think the crux of the matter is that the Stf-3 should simply become the fixed single port 18Hz version of the well reviewed Vtf-3.I do not think the Stf-3's throttle (25Hz) should be purposely restricted so that it does not directly compete in the current Vtf-3's playing field.The Stf-3 should target that group as it will standout with its Vtf-3 performance.

The new Vtf-3 should at least get more power,a remote control,a decent onboard parametric eq system (along with a choice of finishes).Anything less and people will not see the value compared to paying $610 for the Stf-3.Making the Stf-3 an 18Hz instead of a 25Hz subwoofer is what will mean the difference between a sale and not a sale.

Those of is who have been involved in this hobby for a long time,know all too well that the difference between a successfull product and a flop can be some very obvious mistakes made in design.Max extension (18Hz) is the way to set up the re-eq compensation for the Stf-3's overdamped sixth order vented system.

Ddavidson

[RedRox]

Originally posted by Ddavidson
Those of is who have been involved in this hobby for a long time,know all too well that the difference between a successfull product and a flop can be some very obvious mistakes made in design.Max extension (18Hz) is the way to set up the re-eq compensation for the Stf-3's overdamped sixth order vented system.

Can someone provide link (or links) explaining what an "overdamped sixth order system" is?

Thanks.

[Sasha_G]

If I knew exactly what it was, I would probably spend more time designing subwoofers myself. ;) Seriously, though, it is the kind of bass reflex (also known as ported) subwoofers we make.

Ddavidson, its hard enough trying to deliver porche performance for honda accord prices. But when the VTF-3 comes back in stock, it will have some more "luxury" type upgrades.

[spiffnme]

...and you're not telling what they are until it comes back in stock, right? ;)

[Ddavidson]

its hard enough trying to deliver porche performance for honda accord prices

LOL ......................!!!
I guess with all the tough competition it is great to be a consumer in the free world.

But you are correct in that things must be quite tough for a subwoofer manufacturer to stand out. Cutting costs must get difficult when you get down to the nuts and bolts. Especially when you consider that we consumers have so much choice with the internet opening up doors so we can easily buy fom whoever and whatever we may desire (at the cheapest price possible). The audio hobby for me has got a whole heap cheaper over the past few years and yet we are buying much more for our dollar. It is just awesome from my point of view. If a brand doesn't give me value on a product that I desire I can easy look elsewhere. That is why I love this country so much, its a consumers paradise for competitive shopping. The downside is that only the strong will survive as I have seen lots of companies and audio brands get forced to close up because thay can not produce cheap enough. Thats why manufacturing in China is such a life line for US companies to remain competitive.



Ddavidson

[Sasha_G]

Originally posted by Ddavidson

The downside is that only the strong will survive as I have seen lots of companies and audio brands get forced to close up because thay can not produce cheap enough.
Ddavidson

Well, you sure know how to lay on the "tough love". With fans like you, we'll be market dominators in no time :D

[mendes9]

I would be willing to pay a few bucks more if they were made in the USA.

[Ddavidson]

I would be willing to pay a few bucks more if they were made in the USA.

I used to think narrow minded like that but the truth is that the manufacturing plants in China or anywhere in Asia are as good (if not better) than right here. Over the next few years we are going to see China open right up and become very popular for US company manufacturing, especially with all these trade deals and talks. Its going to shoot a lot of the old wives tales right in the foot.

Take a good look on your mass manufacturers box and you will soon see names like China, Korea, Malaysia, and Taiwan.You see less and less Usa and Japan. The fact is that Hsu will still control the design, the quality, the performance and mostly as far as us consumers are concerned the backup. From my point of view, with about 6 yrs in owning many Hsu subs, I have always had first rate after sales product support. Long distant runs on the board says a lot about a company IMO.


Ddavidson

[spiffnme]

I could be wrong, but I'm betting his point was he'd rather the job of building Hsu subs go to a US worker, rather than to a Chinese worker.

I don't think the issue was build quality concerns.

As long as laborers aren't being exploited, I don't care where the item is made. Labor is cheaper in China, so long as they're still being paid a fair wage, it's all good to me.

[Rick Hilst]

I'm in the latter stages of putting together an HT system. The only piece missing is the sub, which I am debating between the VTF-3 and a couple SVS subs.

Any idea on when the improvements to the VTF-3 will be announced? If I knew what features will be added, this might sway my decision. Without knowing, I don't know if I will be patient enough to wait until late November.

[tdekany]

[i] I don't know if I will be patient enough to wait until late November. [/B]

You may not be patient enough but you will be sorry for not getting Hsu subs. You simply can't compare the two brands. There are very few minds like Dr Hsu - regardless of the industry.

If you have to have a "box" then WAIT - if not then get the best hsu sub the Dr has to offer - the TNs.

[Ddavidson]

he'd rather the job of building Hsu subs go to a US worker, rather than to a Chinese worker.

I don't think the issue was build quality concerns.

As long as laborers aren't being exploited, I don't care where the item is made. Labor is cheaper in China, so long as they're still being paid a fair wage, it's all good to me.

Oh yes that go's without saying. However I was expecting as many forum posts have shown that it was another dig at manufacturing in China from a quality point of view. Of course those companies not manufacturing in China or some other OS country are going to spread these sorts lack of quality wives tales.

The worker exploitation thing used to be terrible and no US company should allow that to happen while awarding contracts to build goods. A good days pay for a good days work in any country should be the standard. I am sure Dr Hsu originally being from Asia knows all too well about how some countries did not make sure that the sweat shops where shutdown. That should not be the case here I would imagine.

Ddavidson

[mendes9]

repost..

"I could be wrong, but I'm betting his point was he'd rather the job of building Hsu subs go to a US worker, rather than to a Chinese worker."

Correct....

Asian made goods I think are just as good, no issue here. I also have no issue with FAIR competition. My issue is that american companies are NOT playing on an even playing field. I have 1st hand knowledge... Mexico, China, India, Malaysia etc.,, Do you think those companies have to have workers comp insurance? Do you think they have follow EPA guidlines? Do you think they have to abide by OSHA standards? Do you think they have Lawsuit hungry employee's with blood sucking lawyers to deal with? And the list goes on and on and, and we wonder why labor is so much cheaper.. UNTIL those employers over seas have to abide by the same rules, American companies can't compete it's impossible and we have seen US manufacturing, dwindle.. Now it's the furntiure business in the Carolinas, and even IT outsourcing to India. Next time you call a large company's Tech support line, ask what country you are calling. I don't belong to a union, and generally have not supported them, only at the start of the industrial revolution when workers were clearly exploited. That isn't the case today..

HSU makes a fine sub.. great product.. You sell it here, why not make it here? SVS does it.

[Michael Bain]

How clueless you really are mendes. The parts on those svs really come from outside the usa, and their engineering talent and expertise is a joke compared to Dr. Hsu. They are clever and even sneaky marketers though, often speaking with hyperbolic tone. Anyway it is obvious from the nature of your posts that you really don't have a genuine interest in Hsu, considering how many times you have underhandedly taken pot shots at Hsu and his products in all of your 9-odd posts. If I were the admin, I'd warn you and possibly even suspend your account for littering this forum with your garbage.

[mendes9]

No need for insults. I didn't insult you. Guess your mother didn't teach you any manners.

How is the engineering and expertise a joke? Have you read the reviews comparing the 2 products? You will find that most agree that both products are excellent, and it's literally a coin toss.

Sorry, that I don't consider Dr. HSU a god as you do..

My past posts all relate to the fact that the STF3 line apparently isn't a VTF3 as had been suggested.

[Michael Bain]

Actually you did insult me (especially since you called me a "moron" in your initial reply to me, but then quickly deleted your post in an effort to avoid suspension from this forum). And you also have insulted Dr. Hsu and every single one of his workers. I have a strong feeling that your days are numbered here with the general tone of your posts.

The engineering talent and expertise of Dr. Hsu is clearly superior to that of svs's designer. It doesn't even take a smart engineer to figure that out. Hsu has been working on innovative designs for years, and he fundamentally understands everything about his products, backwards and forwards, from physics to amplification. To top it off, he is even one of the select few who has done further research in engineering at MIT (to earn his PhD), he's not some do-it-yourself sub builder looking to make more money. To even argue about that is quite silly, it's pretty much black and white.

Like they have said, it is easy to build a subwoofer that can play loud. To build one that can play not only loud but with very little distortion and very even and low response and captures more of the subtle nuances in low frequency reproduction is more difficult.

The STF-3 is a very special product. It is not going to trump the VTF-3 in ultimate extension, but it is going to trump the competition at the price point. How you can come up with your sorry conclusions based only on the standard Hsu ultra-conservative frequency rating and knowing next to nothing about the STF-3 is really beyond me.

[Ddavidson]

American companies can't compete it's impossible and we have seen US manufacturing, dwindle.

This is not just an audio issue. We live in a free market in a free country. The fact that we have more costs to manufacture in the US makes not one bit of difference to the end consumer, especially when the manufacturer is playing in a free World market.

To be competitive with the world we have to have a free market, or else we would need to protect the home market from imports and make them more expensive to cover the additional costs that manufacturing in the US costs. As a free country we simply just could never outlaw and force companies not to be competitive. This type of tax/tarriff never really works fairly because many of the parts are manufactured from OS anyhow. Hsu is obviously getting into a very competitive change of company policy. Their push seems to be into becoming bigger and better and as consumers we are the big beneficiaries.


Ddavidson

[Michael Bain]

Does anyone have BMW's phone number? They design an awesome car, and the M3 looks great, but I need to ask them this question: If they sell their cars here in the USA, why can't they make all of these cars here in the USA? Ford does it, why can't they? :p

[tdekany]

Originally posted by Michael Bain
Does anyone have BMW's phone number? They design an awesome car, and the M3 looks great, but I need to ask them this question: If they sell their cars here in the USA, why can't they make all of these cars here in the USA? Ford does it, why can't they? :p

they do have a plant in North Carolina- but not sure if the M3 is built here or in Munich, but the 3 series are built here..
BTW, don't ford build imany cars in Canada?
Toyotas are built here.

[Michael Bain]

Things are complex these days. Often the cars (and other consumer goods) will have parts from all over the world. It is extremely rare to find a product that utilizes many internal components that are all made and designed in the USA. I know for a fact that all the products mentioned in this thread are not (subwoofers and cars alike).

I am almost certain that the M3 is manufactured in Germany, but probably not 100% made in Germany.

[Sasha_G]

Alright,

mendes9,
I must disagree--the good comparison's I've read have our products coming out ahead of SVSs in terms of sound quality. There is no "coin toss"--our subs sound very different than theirs. Sounds like you have been repeating what their marketers are saying.

Here is my opinion on the manufacturing situation,
With globalization a reality that threatens American workers, we can try to shut out competition through laws, regulations, and buying from good ol' boys, or we can embrace competition and adapt to it. Right now, different countries are taking on roles in the world. China is one of the few superpowers and has become a specialist in manufacturing. Almost all the clothes we wear are made in China, Asia, or in South America, and most electronics are made outside the USA and Canada. If we decided to suddenly throw away all foreign made stuff this instant, we would probably be naked without clothes, and many an "American Made" product would be hollowed out. Companies should say "Assembled in America" instead-- it's more honest.

What is American going to specialize in? I can't answer that question, but in our case HSU Research is specializing in service oriented jobs like mine, and we are also specializing in the design, innovation, and engineering of products. Good engineering leads to patents on technology--some patents that get things done better and more efficiently. Eventually this can lead to licencing technologies to other countries, better products throughout the world, and a better world. Also, while we are not directly paying American manufacturers, we are paying American Engineers, Entraprenuers, Service workers, Artists, Logistics Workers (dock workers, truckers, UPS delivery people, FedEx, etc.), and Dealers.

In the short run, we are also saving American's money. They don't have to do any manufacturing work and can decide how to spend the money they save on what is important to them, such as more food, rent, etc.

If, on the other hand, we moved manufacturing overseas and didn't pass on any of the savings to customers, we would be worthy of the spite of American buyers. If we didn't make any innovations we wouldn't be worthy of respect either. I know of at least one American company that has made some money imitating our designs, so there are some other American's making money thanks to us.

Anyhow, what is unfortunate is how internet forums can so easily polarize issues and generate arguments.

I'm very glad we have the edit buttons, because it allows us to correct potential misunderstandings. By all means, use the edit buttons! And don't take people's posts too seriously. I wish we could all go out and get some drinks together, and then everything would be fine.

I'm ending this thread.