Differences between Hsu and SVS subs

[Rick Hilst]

Can anyone explain the technical differences between the Hsu and SVS subs (in language that I can understand) and why that makes a difference?

I am trying to decide between the VTF-3 and a couple SVS subs. There is a lot of hype (and, unfortunately, name calling) in the various forums (mostly pro-SVS) and very little technical information (at least presented in a fashion that I can understand).

[Michael Bain]

This question has been asked before. Here is the link, including technical and non-technical information.

http://www.hsuresearch.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=223#post223

Add it all up, note how the Hsu lineup can play very loud with very low distortion while still maintaining a very musical sound, and start to learn more about the nuances of the Hsu design, and Hsu comes out on top in my very humble opinion. Essentially, Dr. Hsu can get more out of his subwoofers than almost anyone else. What he has been able to squeeze out of the VTF-2 and VTF-3 is almost remarkable, and the hunger is there to work on even more formidable and more expensive flagships in the near future.

[Rick Hilst]

That thread contained info on the Hsu but very little on the differences between Hsu and SVS. I'm sure I can find similar numbers on the SVS subs.

I want to know what really makes a difference between the subs. Certain stuff, like prices, dimensions and amp power are easily found. However, I'd like to see comparisons on THD (side-by-side dB vs Hz curves would be nice) and an explanation of the differences.

[Michael Bain]

Let me try to better answer your question, using the only reviews that I know of that have data for Hsu and SVS:

-->Hsu VTF-2 in max output mode: 109.7db's (25-60Hz avg SPL)
XX SVS 20.39: 109.5db's (25-60Hz avg SPL)

-->Hsu VTF-2 in max extension mode: 93db's (20Hz SPL)
XX SVS 20.39: 91db's (20Hz SPL)

All measurements taken above by T. Nousaine are with less than 10 percent Total Harmonic Distortion. Note that the VTF-2 review sample was older and it had a 10 inch driver and 150 watt amp in a boxy shape, while the 20.39 in a 40 inch tall and 17 inch wide cylinder had a 12 inch driver and 300 watt amp.


-->Hsu TN1220HO at maximum output levels: 110db's at 20Hz or 106db's at 20Hz.
XX SVS 16.46 at maximum output levels: 102db's at 20Hz

-->Hsu TN1220HO: extremely clean output at very high output levels down to 20Hz, no port noise at these levels
XX SVS 16.46: severe port noise at 20Hz, less clean.

-->Hsu VTF-3 at maximum output levels: 115db's at 31.5Hz
XX SVS 16.46: 113db's at 31.5Hz
XX SVS 25.31: 112db's at 31.5Hz

-->Hsu TN1220HO: +0db flat frequency response to 20Hz
-->Hsu VTF-3: +0db flat frequency response to 20Hz
XX SVS 16.46: -5db's down, frequency response at 20Hz.
XX SVS 25.31: no data taken, probably even worse!

All measurements taken by H. Ferstler from the main listening position. Note the poor frequency response of the very large 45 inch tubular svs sub. Rated at -3db at 16Hz, not even close to manufacturer spec in this test.

Not all subwoofers are created equally. Here you can see direct comparisons where the smaller and sometimes older Hsu products have the edge. This is undistorted output only, not to be confused with musical ability. Hsu almost undoubtedly wins in that case, unless you do not like smooth and very extended accurate and well defined bass. :cool:

The differences? Hsu will not reveal all of his secrets, but his expertise in engineering and physics gives him the advantage, in addition to his many years of experience in the field. The Hsus use a unique overdamped design (sixth order) with quite admirable synergy between driver and amp, something that is not seen so clearly and is not implemented nearly as well on the svs models.

[Lwang]

As said, Hsu utilizes an overdamped design, which increases mid/upper bass efficiency, but has a premature rolloff. Then compensate for that with a integrator which results in a flat response. There might be lies perpetuated on the web that says Hsu subs has to be EQ'd, thereby reducing headroom at low bass. But the true result is a sub with equal headroom at low bass compared to a regular design, but with a much higher headroom at frequencies above that. It could be easily seen in the headroom of the Hsu subs at low freq, where there is no lack of headroom at all.

Plus, the VTF concept is not just plugging up different number of ports, it is changes in the mechanical characteristics of the sub working in synergy with the changes in electronic characteristics.

Plus, subwoofer is not just about SPL and F3, there is actually a thing called "sound quality". It practically doesn't apply in the HT world, but in the music reproduction world, it is a very important characteristic. And if you go look at what people said when they did side by side comparisions, there frequently are distinctive differences between the two. You might have to weed through the bogus theories thrown around to justify the inferior results.

[Sasha_G]

We prefer not to talk about those guys too much, as provides them with a lot of free publicity. Plus, it puts us in the position of having to brag a little, which I don't like. They say self-praise is no praise. I touched on the issue here:

http://www.hsuresearch.com/forum/showthread.php?postid=1570#post1353

I'll just go over it once more. In my comparisons I've found that HSU subs sound punchier, more detailed, and as if a veil has been lifted. The SVS guys might say that their "monster subs" are louder, to which I would respond that our subs are among the most powerful subs on the market, and you can always add more of our subs to achieve more loudness. Kinda like the Klipsh subwoofer cubes that you can daisy chain. In our case, you can get a Y cable and add another one easily. Anyhow, one can't add more "super loud subs" to create the detail I was talking about. Thats all.

[Michael Bain]

A few more interesting tidbits that you should know about.

As mentioned above by lwang, the svs so-called "variable tuning" is not true to the sense, and it is certainly not comparable in quality or effectiveness to the Hsu true variable tuning model. The svs solution is more of a marketing response to Hsu's model. With svs, the physical port is plugged to alter the tuning, and that is essentially it. The amplifier and other design characteristics are not altered to account for the physical change in tuning, so the response does not stay smooth and flat as tune is lowered. With the Hsu variable tuning solution, output changes smoothly (ie linearly) as the port is plugged, and response stays flat and smooth at the same time. The reviews on the VTF series show just that. This is a very subtle design element, where Dr Hsu's pure engineering skills show clear. Definitely a major advantage for Hsu.

Another seldom-mentioned element is the lack of purpose built and fully customized amps for the svs passive cylinder models. They have simply thrown in Samson S700 and S1000 amps, both amps which are typically associated with PA concerts and horn loaded speakers, certainly not with subwoofers! With no purpose-built matching of amp and driver and enclosure, with no crossover, and with no filtering of ultrasonic frequencies, they look very poor in comparison to the Hsu cylinder TN models and custom built amps.

Now let's talk about the svs cylinders that have built in powered amps. One little known design element is that svs needs to take a small chunk out of the cylinder in order to properly flush mount the amp onto the curved cylindrical surface. Their marketers have deftly avoided this issue in the past, and have even attempted to turn this into a marketing advantage! Don't fall for that rhetoric. There is no way to properly get around this issue. All else equal, comparing powered to passive cylinder, the powered cylinder will lose about 1-1.5db's of maximum output according to svs's own designer! The reason is a small loss of ridigity in the structure. This makes sense, because you have to alter the curved surface of the cylindrical wall in order to mount an amp there. Alter the curved surface of the cylinder in any way, and you are working with essentially a modified cylinder! The Hsu approach is much more pure. No modifications to the structural wall on the TN models, and that's why, even with a thin cylindrical wall and structure, they can play so clean and loud and sound so musical in comparison.

And then there is the issue of the BASH amps that svs employs in their products. I am quite confident that the current Hsu amps and the new Hsu BASH amps are superior in sound quality (and Hsu has alluded to the fact that his BASH amps have design elements and technology that his "competitors" do not have). This is due primarily to the fact that Dr. Hsu has a much better sense on how to properly match amp to driver and enclosure characteristics. In a subwoofer design, there are elements of brute force and elements of finesse. Hsu has done a very good job at making sure that both elements are well captured.

Finally, let's talk about box vs cylinder. All else equal, the cylinder will in general play cleaner and louder as the frequency is lowered. So when the svs marketers claim that there is no difference between their box and cylinder equivalent, that is not true. The box will lose several db's in maximum output levels as the frequency is lowered, all else equal. The reality is that not all else is equal against the competition. In terms of design, Hsu box subs arguably have the edge over the svs cylinders in clean undistorted output and frequency response and sound quality, so that makes them all that much better than the svs box equivalents. What is most impressive is that Hsu has been able to keep frequency response very smooth and flat for both the cylinder TN1220HO and the box VTF-3 and VTF-2, while keeping output high for all three, all while keeping the physical size of each sub relatively reasonable. One can only wonder what Hsu has in store for us in the future with newer flagship models.

[tgrisham]

In response to the issue of Hsu vs. SVS, only one comment. I sympathise with you when trying to decide between the two. Without direct A/B comparison in your home, how can you know what will sound good to you? Also, the contentiousness of the other forums is disturbing. It almost had me convinced that SVS was better! I respect Hsu's policy of not debating their products on the forums. I just purchased a VTF-3 in Rosewood. I am ecstatic with the sound. I thought my front two Dynaudio 70s had good extension. Once I added the VTF-3 and tuned it to match the 70s, I can't go back to just the fronts again. My wife loves the finish and even though she is not at all an audiophile, she loves the sound. The impact of LFE is jaw-dropping. I wanted to try the Hsu, then order the SVS, and compare the two. I never ordered the SVS. It seems that you save enough money to be able to send the one back you don't want. You just can't believe what anyone else says on the internet, IMO. Good luck!

TG

[Rick Hilst]

I apologize if this gets long-winded (which I think it will).

While I think modesty and staying above the fray are admirable traits, I'm not sure they are smart ones.

I am a chemical engineer doing software architecture for a major software firm. I am paid to analyze difficult problems and come up with good solutions. I tell you this because I think, if I were less analytical, I would already have purchased an SVS sub.

I have read (and started) numerous threads on several different forums. Some of these forums are obviously biased (e.g., this one and hometheaterforum) and some are (I think) more unbiased (e.g., avsforum, hometheaterspot and av123 - at least with respect to Hsu versus SVS).

What I have encountered is that there is a preponderance of pro-SVS posts at these forums, even the ones I expected to be unbiased. In many cases I see a 5:1 or even 10:1 bias in favor of SVS.

Many of these posts are more emotional than logical and many of them echo the obvious (more watts, more drivers, cheaper, etc.). However, the net impact of the sheer number of postings is that eventually you begin to believe that all these people can't be wrong. The result is that you reach the conclusion that Hsu is probably good but SVS must be great.

I believe the vast majority of people who go through the kind of online research that I have would end up buying SVS. I personally am undecided (at this time actually leaning a little towards Hsu) but I am convinced that SVS or the people who buy SVS are doing a much better job at pushing their opinions than Hsu is.

Personally, I base my decisions on logic not hype. I want facts and opinions that are expressed based on logic. Emotional arguments and obvious arguments have very little impact on me.

For example I found the statement that a cup filled with liquid placed on top of the VTF-3 did not have any ripples even when the sub was shaking the room to be very impressive. Most people would read that and say "Who cares?". However, to me it indicates a great deal about the quality of engineering that has gone into the product.

The arguments presented in this thread seem for the most part to be logical (a couple don't make sense to me) and are good arguments for Hsu versus SVS (and are impacting my opinion). However, I have not seen any of these arguments presented in any of the other forums.

I'm not sure what the marketing strategy is for Hsu or why these arguments are not presented in the other forums. However, I can't believe that not presenting and defending them in these other forums is helping sales of Hsu subs.

[Michael Bain]

Very thoughtful comments, Rick. Let me respond to some of them.

First and foremost, I consider the people at this forum to be some of the most knowledgable people on the planet about Hsu Research products. Sure we are major supporters of the man and the company and the products, but we are also at times his biggest critic. If we think that he is making a poor design decision or marketing decision or anything, we will let him know about it straight up, not sugar coated. Most of us have listened to many great subwoofers, and our search for a truly great product at a truly great price made by a truly intelligent and good natured humble man has led us here.

It is sad but true how things have evolved on the forums that you have mentioned. There are some very clear reasons for this. The main reason is that the two people who head svs actually promote and even encourage the nasty behavior that many of their overzelous owners exhibit. You would not believe some of the arguments they have had over the years. Sometimes this behavior involved hyping up their own products, at other times it involved hyping down their competitor's products! Who do you think the main competitor was? Hsu of course!

To add to the drama, Dr. Hsu and his team refused to participate in these silly and dramatic debates. While the R&D man for svs was busy spending hours on the internet each day (it's free promotion in reality, you know?), Dr. Hsu was pursuing various intellectual pursuits, related to subwoofers, related to consulting, related to research, and so on. What they understimated was how effective the internet was to relay ideas, not only good but also bad! We all know that even a slight rumor can run rampant on the internet in a matter of minutes. Dr. Hsu is a good-hearted man, and I do not think he envisioned at all that svs could or would ever come out mudslinging against Hsu Research and their products. Yet that is exactly what happened, and by the time anyone realized what was truly happening it was too late. The marketers for svs realized that Dr. Hsu was not going to bother correcting the wrongs on the internet, so they fed off that like a leech would. They would erroneously claim that a slight touch would cause the Hsu cylinders subwoofer to fall. They would erroneously claim that the Hsu cylinders were compromised in design because of eq. They would also go out of their way to hide or conceal or dispute any data (see above) that would show their subwoofer in a very poor light. Almost a masterful marketing plan, in a devious and evil kind of way. With Hsu representatives out of the picture on the forums, and with Hsu owners and supporters often afraid to speak up for fear of the rath of the svs mob, the path was free. The forums that you mentioned above actually gave svs a place to discuss and promote and market their products as they saw fit (incidently, the owners of Home Theater Forum, Home Theater Spot, and AVS Forum were all given free svs subwoofers, and these owners have gone out of their way to help market svs on the forum). There were a few people who saw what was going on and they challenged svs, but as far as I know they were ridiculed by the svs mob, degraded on the forums, and even banned from participating on these forums (Sasha G mentioned the name Barey Barnes on this forum, he was one of the first people who stood up, because he was able to review a Hsu sub and an svs sub side by side at home, and he emphatically went with the Hsu. I recall reading that he was banned from Home Theater Spot and Home Theater Forum after merely posting his impressions regarding the two subs). Others followed and agreed with him, but the huge effort they needed to make just to defend themselves on the forum was too much to take, so it drove people like Barey away from the forums, even where he did have some freedom to speak (like Audio Video Science).

Oh how the tables would be turned if the accurate and logical information above about Hsu versus svs was known earlier by more people. While we are free to tell it here, on the forums that you mentioned we would be very wary of even attempting to paint such a picture, simply because of the variables stacked against us. There is the mob to deal with, and there are forum admins to deal with who have become a part of this mob. Trust me, there were people who valiantly tried to break the mold (like Barey Barnes), but most of them realized it just wasn't worth it after what they had to go through to defend their own puchase!

Things are changing as we speak though. People have become more and more educated and aware about Hsu Research and some of the other up and comers like Onyx. Hsu is soon going to offer some subwoofers that are groundbreaking in what they give to the consumer for the money! This is a very exciting time for Hsu Research! They really seem committed and hungry to created groundbreaking products, and with their long experience and with their technical expertise, they have a significant advantage over a company like svs.

What you should come away from this is knowing some of the cold hard facts as presented earlier in this thread. It's not a very easy thing for svs fans to swallow, but people who choose Hsu should be pretty pleased about it.

[Michael Bain]

Admist the novel, I forgot to ask you a question: what points above are you not clear about? You mentioned that most of the viewpoints in the first few posts of this thread were very logical and clear, but you were not so clear about a couple of them. I'd be happy to take a shot at them.

[Rick Hilst]

Personally, I am not afraid of a fight. However, in this case, I don't possess the expertise to technically defend Hsu. I think it's unfortunate that no one is, since I think it deprives the forum readers of a chance to listen to side-by-side arguments and reach their own conclusions. Instead they are getting half of the story.

I would like to see a legitimate Hsu versus SVS discussion in which both sides presented and defended their reasons for one product being better than the other. I would be happy to be a moderator for this discussion and make sure that the arguments remain logical and not emotional or full of hyperbole.

If I knew someone with technical expertise from Hsu would participate, I would be glad to participate in such a role (moderator) on one of the forums. I consider myself to be very logical and I am more than willing to take on the challenge of keeping the debate at a non-personal, logical level. Hopefully, it would help me decide which sub to purchase (as I am still undecided).

[Rick Hilst]

With the Hsu variable tuning solution, output changes smoothly (ie linearly) as the port is plugged, and response stays flat and smooth at the same time.

How does this work? This is a conclusion not an explanation.

purpose-built matching of amp and driver and enclosure, with no crossover, and with no filtering of ultrasonic frequencies

Sounds good but where is the logic versus the hype? How do you build an amp to match a driver/enclosure? How do you filter ultrasonic frequencies (can't hear them, can you?) and why is it important?

Dr. Hsu has a much better sense on how to properly match amp to driver and enclosure characteristics. In a subwoofer design, there are elements of brute force and elements of finesse. Hsu has done a very good job at making sure that both elements are well captured.

While this sounds good, it is also hype. No logical argument is presented to back it up.

All else equal, the cylinder will in general play cleaner and louder as the frequency is lowered. So when the svs marketers claim that there is no difference between their box and cylinder equivalent, that is not true. ... In terms of design, Hsu box subs arguably have the edge over the svs cylinders in clean undistorted output and frequency response and sound quality, so that makes them all that much better than the svs box equivalents. What is most impressive is that Hsu has been able to keep frequency response very smooth and flat for both the cylinder TN1220HO and the box VTF-3 and VTF-2, while keeping output high for all three, all while keeping the physical size of each sub relatively reasonable.

Again, this sounds good. But where is the logic to back it up? Do you have curves showing that Hsu has the edge in clean undistorted output, frequency response and sound quality?

Anyhow, one can't add more "super loud subs" to create the detail I was talking about.

This is an example of a logical argument. No one will argue that you can't make more noise by adding more subs. However, the argument here that adding loud subs won't improve sound quality is also logical.

[Michael Bain]

Many of the fundamental reasons why Hsu has the advantage over svs have been presented here. These advantages include: overdamped (to maximize efficiency), arguably superior amplifier design and crossover network, arguably superior integration between amplifier and woofer and sub-enclosure, flatter and smoother response (as shown professionally in the reviews above), cleaner output (as shown professionally in reviews above), more reasonably sized, backed by undeniably one of the most innovative and intelligent people in this industry who has a clear and demonstrated ability to maximize bass performance in different rooms. The only areas where Hsu would not necessarily have the advantage would be mostly marketing areas. That would included rated amp wattage (which is not a very meaningful measure when comparing two completely different amplifier and subwoofer designs, noting at the same that Hsu Research consistently rates their amps much more conservatively than they really are), in some cases the absolute number of ports available (which is also not a very meaningful measure when comparing two very different designs, and if you actually wanted to even approach the smooth and flat frequency response of the VTF-3 or TN1220HO, you would be forced to plug some ports on the svs + model anyway, and even then the response would probably not be as smooth because of the lack of true variable tuning on these models. Note that number and diameter of the ports is a somewhat misleading measure, because what is sometimes more important is the actual length of the port, in addition to the design of the port. That is one of the reasons why the TN1220HO, with a single 4 inch diameter port, can play extremely loud and clean all the way down to 20Hz and it has room to spare too. Hsu Research is actually using some new and improved port designs in the new models), the distribution of weight on the TN1220HO (which has more weight distributed towards the top, but this is not a major issue because the sub can be oriented in any fashion if need be. Oriented with driver facing up, the sub is actually cleaner in sound because the port below uses the floor as a type of sound absorber), and finally the physical size of the unit (a larger size, all else equal, gives some added efficiency, albeit at the cost of physical size! Hsu is really making a concerted effort to squeeze the most bass out of a given enclosure size, all the while realizing that the amount of floor space the sub takes up and the general appearance of the subwoofer in the room are much more important variables than a small bit of added efficiency because of larger size).

Hope that clears things up.

[EdS]

Interesting discussion. A couple of weeks ago I decided that I was going to upgrade my sub (currently have a Klipsch KSW-12). I'm looking for a sub that would have relatively flat output down to the 20Hz range, a box shape, and around the $600 range. I was looking at going with the subs that are for the most part sold over the internet (Hsu, SVS, Adire, etc.). It seems that on most of the forums mentioned, if you ask for advice on a sub, the overwhelming response is SVS, and anything else was "beaten down" by the crowd. At first I thought my sub selection would be easy (SVS), however the more threads I read, the more I became suspicious of SVS, particularly the way the owners present themselves as "Aw Shucks, we're just plain folks" mentality, then proceed to politely (sometimes not so politely) browbeat anyone that disagrees with them. At this point I am even suspicious as to whether or not everyone that claims to have a SVS sub really exist.

Anyways, after further research (this time reading any legitmate reviews I could get my hands on), I've decided on a Hsu STF-3, or possibly a B-stock VTF-3. I would go for the STF-3 if I was sure that it was relatively flat down to 20Hz, however at $849 the VTF-3 is out of my price range, which is why I might take a chance to wait for B-stock VTF-3.

I appreciate that the people who work at Hsu (and their fans) take the high road, though it might not be the best marketing approach. However one would probably need to have Hsu's and their competitors sales numbers in front of them for analysis before a judgement could be made.

FYI, the quote from a Howard Ferstler review of the VTF-3 that sealed the deal for me was:
"Against an $850 SVS 16-46PC subwoofer, the two were equally clean at 30 Hz, at both soft and moderate levels, but with the SVS not quite so clean at higher levels. At 20 Hz, the units were essentially equal in terms of colorations. However, the SVS sub was 4 or 5 dB down from the Hsu at 20 Hz, with their levels matched at 40 Hz. With musical program sources, the two sounded essentially identical most of the time, with the Hsu perceptibly stronger below 25 Hz if the music contained such signals. This allowed the Hsu to have a slight edge with really super-clean, super-deep bass program sources."

I thought this was a fairly good "apples to apples" comparison of similarly priced subs from both companies, with the advantage going to Hsu.

[tdekany]

However, to me it indicates a great deal about the quality of engineering that has gone into the product.

That is exactly the reason why I would only purchase from Dr Hsu.

He is a true genius when it comes to designing subs. Look at how many products he designed over the existence of the company.

It is very hard to come up with a sub or subs (as the case is with Hsu Research) that is as musical as the VTF 2/3 and the TNs.

However it is fairly easy to COPY the design and claim that "ours" is better. That is how I see this "war". Also remember that most people who purchase Hsu subs listen to them and not spend their time on this forum (you can see only a very few post here regularly) who could care less about what others think and purchase. Do you know anything about the SVS guys' background?

Also the debate that you are talking about? What purpose would that serve? I would hope that with your intelligence, that is not what you would base your decision on.

Order both subs, listen to them side by side in your own home, and make a decision, then send back the one that you didn't like.
You have a month to play around. This was m2c

PS: I wouldn't be shocked if after the Ventrioquist systems were introduced SVS would have their own 5.1 come out in a few months. They are so original!


http://www.foodforyourblood.com

[Ddavidson]

Plus, it puts us in the position of having to brag a little, which I don't like. They say self-praise is no praise.

Its a no win situation, no matter what is said in reply. Most of these forum arguments are very subjective and are so biased its not funny. Do not take that stuff very seriously as its from a vested interest stand point or its placebo justification of a recent purchase. Of course it is this consistant hyped up bias that can fool a less knowledgable consumer into a purchase. If Hsu went in and attacked every incorrect statement on these forums, Hsu would need to have all forums monitored 24/7 by having full time internet police just like they are doing. I just think your time is better spent answering emails and phone calls than the many incorrect asumptions put out by the opposition.

Just because you have a sub that can play louder at 25Hz means zip in SQ terms. That is why they quote figures so much in postings because they know that a dB or a Hz here or there might win a sale. In the most important sound quality (SQ) department any of the Hsu subs leave's any of their subs for dead. I have compared several and its a no brainer win for Hsu Research. When Hsu releases a flagship I am sure some humble pie will be eaten in the forums. The HTF is a total waste of time as it is a promotional vehicle for them. As soon as you get away from how loud one frquency can play and you start to talk about SQ differences the discussion gets very short and they avoid the subject like the plauge. Any of the Hsu subs just sound so much better balanced. They are very fast, tight, and yet can play very deep while do so very loudly (if needed). Hsu deserve their long held reputation for excellence in SQ. Anyone can design a loud peaky bass boombox.


Ddavidson

[Michael Bain]

Oh boy, all these great questions!

How does this work? This is a conclusion not an explanation.

Let me try to explain it. Every subwoofer designer is forced to use a certain enclosure type, and then optimize their other components to work efficiently with that one enclosure type. That is why subwoofers generally operate at a "natural tune" point. Any point of tuning that is different than the natural tuning point represents a non-ideal tune for the enclosure at hand. Hsu Research has worked long and hard to engineer their variable tuning subwoofers so that system performance is properly balanced as the tune is changed. You can't just pop in a port plug and call it a day. The amplifier and woofer/enclosure synergy is critical, and it takes very skillful engineering to design a variable tuning sub so that response is balanced and output is linearly changed as the tune is changed. The svs "solution" is just a solution in the physical sense in that a port is plugged, but the characteristics of the amplifer are not changed as the physical tune is changed. The Hsu solution is much more complex and difficult to engineer, no question about it.

Sounds good but where is the logic versus the hype? How do you build an amp to match a driver/enclosure? How do you filter ultrasonic frequencies (can't hear them, can you?) and why is it important?

It is of critical importance to match amplifier characteristics with the driver and enclosure. All these in tandem are what synergistically bring the sound, and each of these elements is very important in forming the final output. Hsu goes to great lengths to carefully match and tweak the amplifier so that smooth and linear response is maintained. That's one reason why his results are so good. Filtering of ultrasonic frequencies is important because it protects the subwoofer from unloading and it helps prevent the subwoofer from being damaged when played loudly with low frequency material that is below the tuning point. Hsu also includes a soft-clipping safety feature on his amps.

While this sounds good, it is also hype. No logical argument is presented to back it up.

Dr. Hsu has worked on almost every type of cylinder subwoofer arrangement that you could possibly think of over the last ten years. He's also taken a major role in customizing and designing amplifiers specifically for his products. Add in this experience with his natural experience as a highly skilled PhD engineering graduate student from MIT, and the logic falls into place.

Again, this sounds good. But where is the logic to back it up? Do you have curves showing that Hsu has the edge in clean undistorted output, frequency response and sound quality?

Look at the data referenced above in this thread. Talk to T Nousaine. Talk to H Ferstler. Talk to some of the established industry pros at places like Ascend Acoustics and Onyx. They can verify that this statement is for all practical purposes true. Until we see data that says otherwise, this statement is very valid. There is no clear definition of sound quality, but most of the people that have listened to Hsu in comparison to svs agree about Hsu edge in sound quality.

Here is a recent direct quote from T. Nousaine: "I consider Hsu (pronouced "Sue") Research the least expensive way to get a high-output home subwoofer. Their quite affordable VTF-2 and VTF-3 models go lower and play louder than products costing three or four times as much."

[Rick Hilst]

OK. I'm getting closer to understanding.

Every subwoofer designer is forced to use a certain enclosure type, and then optimize their other components to work efficiently with that one enclosure type. That is why subwoofers generally operate at a "natural tune" point. Any point of tuning that is different than the natural tuning point represents a non-ideal tune for the enclosure at hand.

This makes sense to me.

Hsu Research has worked long and hard to engineer their variable tuning subwoofers so that system performance is properly balanced as the tune is changed.

I don't want Hsu to divulge any secrets but this is again a conclusion not an explanation.

The amplifier and woofer/enclosure synergy is critical, and it takes very skillful engineering to design a variable tuning sub so that response is balanced and output is linearly changed as the tune is changed. The svs "solution" is just a solution in the physical sense in that a port is plugged, but the characteristics of the amplifer are not changed as the physical tune is changed.

This also makes sense to me.

The Hsu solution is much more complex and difficult to engineer, no question about it.

Again, this is a conclusion. However, if the earlier statement on proper balancing of system performance can be explained, I would accept this statement as being true.

It is of critical importance to match amplifier characteristics with the driver and enclosure.

This is a conclusion but one that I can believe is probably true.

Hsu goes to great lengths to carefully match and tweak the amplifier so that smooth and linear response is maintained.

This is also a conclusion. Is there data available that can back up this argument?

Filtering of ultrasonic frequencies is important because it protects the subwoofer from unloading and it helps prevent the subwoofer from being damaged when played loudly with low frequency material that is below the tuning point. Hsu also includes a soft-clipping safety feature on his amps.

Pardon my ignorance but what is "unloading"?

Talk to T Nousaine. Talk to H Ferstler. Talk to some of the established industry pros at places like Ascend Acoustics and Onyx.

Can you give me e-mail addresses or tell me how I can reach the people above?

BTW I appreciate you taking the time to answer my questions.

On a different note:

Order both subs, listen to them side by side in your own home

This seems like a major hassle and will increase the cost of the sub by the amount spent on shipping and returning the loser. It may come to this - I'm hoping I can reach a conclusion without making it necessary.

[Sorny]

When Hsu releases a flagship I am sure some humble pie will be eaten in the forums.


HSU already has a flagship, I've got 2 of them. See the TN1220HO.

Sorny

[Ddavidson]

FYI, the quote from a Howard Ferstler review of the VTF-3 that sealed the deal for me was:

However, the SVS sub was 4 or 5 dB down from the Hsu at 20 Hz, with their levels matched at 40 Hz.

the SVS not quite so clean at higher levels.


That is a key issue and why the flat frequency response of a Hsu helps achieve a balance and superior SQ. Just FWIW the other Svs subs that I have now tried where also very peaky and had choppy frequency response curves over their operational range unlike my Vtf-3 and Vtf-2.


direct quote from T. Nousaine: "I consider Hsu (pronouced "Sue") Research the least expensive way to get a high-output home subwoofer. Their quite affordable VTF-2 and VTF-3 models go lower and play louder than products costing three or four times as much."

Tom is one of those who actually review very well. His reviews are done to a distortion limit of 10% which is IMO a great way to do things. He certainly knows a lot about bass. I have met him at several audio shows over the years. Each time in person he has said he holds immense respect for Hsu Research subwoofers. So much so that he thinks they are the market steal in price vs performance stakes. His performance comparisions are not with these two bit brands but are with the market leaders, all of whom charge a whole lot more money that what Hsu charge. Bang for your buck that also has awesome low distortion SQ. Subwoofer buying at this price level is not a hard choice unless your hearing aid is on the blink. In which case those peaky sounding subs with an extra dB here or their might be an option.

Tom Nousaine (nousaine@aol.com)
Howard Ferstler (ferstle@attglobal.net)

You can find them on google and normally close by the rec.audio.opinion newsgroup. RAO can be a pool of ugly biting and scratching as opinions on various forms of audio are very divided. The audiophile community is very hostile at times.

Ddavidson

[Michael Bain]

Again, this is a conclusion. However, if the earlier statement on proper balancing of system performance can be explained, I would accept this statement as being true.

Think of it conceptually. You have a subwoofer with a shape (ie enclosure) that cannot be modified. The subwoofer amplifier has been tweaked so that response is smooth and output is maximized for the one "natural tune" of the subwoofer. If you physically plug a port, you lower the tune, but the amplifier characteristics are kept the same. This leads to an imbalance in response and output linearity. The VTF-2 and VTF-3 overcome this because the amplifier characteristics are altered at the same time that the subwoofer tune is changed. Also keep in mind that Dr. Hsu has been working on this technique for years (starting with the VTF-2, and also with other prototype high end designs like the VTF-1).

I truly wish we had some graphs of the Hsu in comparison to the svs to illustrate this point, but they don't exist as far as I know. What I do know is that the Hsu variable tuning models have been measured to have very flat and extended response (in both tuning modes) in some independent professional reviews available at this website.

Unloading is what can physically happen to the subwoofer driver when the subwoofer has no ultrasonic protection from very low and very loud frequencies that are below the subwoofer's natural tuning point and that the subwoofer is not properly designed to output. This basically means that the driver (whether it is the spider or the magnet or some other component) can get seriously damaged and even get misaligned in a sense. Subwoofers do not absolutely need to have ultrasonic filtering, but it is a very good feature to help protect the sub and to allow the sub to handle what it is designed to handle.

Regarding email addresses, I know that you can get T. Nousaine and H. Ferstler's emails from google user groups. The email address of the founder of Ascend Acoustics and the founder of Onyx Rockets can probably be found at their respective websites, or you could give their companies a call and go from there.

[Lwang]

Talk to T Nousaine. Talk to H Ferstler. Talk to some of the established industry pros at places like Ascend Acoustics and Onyx. They can verify that this statement is for all practical purposes true.

When you converse with them in private, they will portray a much bigger difference than what is perceived in their reviews.

Pardon my ignorance but what is "unloading"?

A vented sub has a freq in which the ports are doing most of the work, and below that, the drivers pretty much moves as if it is in open air w/o the benefit of the enclosure's compliance. At that point, that is "unloading", which would cause the woofer to easily bottom out and cause damage to it. Hsu' amps are designed with the knowledge of that freq and cuts off substantially anything below that.

Depending on whether a port is plugged, that resonance freq for the woofer changes. Hsu's VTF amps, in addition to changing the equalization curve to suit the damping characteristics of the sub, also changes that subsonic filter freq so that it takes effect at the right freq.

If you want freq resp of some of SVS subs, here are some (note how the review compresses the vertical scale to make the freq resp look pretty flat).

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_9_4/images/svs-25-31-pci-subwoofer-fr.gif

The above freq resp chart shows the sub being 15dB down @ 20hz.


http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_10_3/images/svs-b4-subwoofer-fr-mls.gif

The above freq resp chart shows the sub 13dB down @ 20hz.


http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_9_2/images/svs-subwoofer-fr-mls-graph.gif

The above freq resp chart shows it being 13dB down @ 20hz

[Michael Bain]

They have a hump in response, and their response drops like a brick below 40 or 50Hz (I've seen quite a few of their reviews, and they have never managed to keep response flat below even 25Hz in any of their products). In contrast to the smooth and flat and very low response that is typical in almost every Hsu review.

[tdekany]

Hey Rick - Can I ask what kind of vehicle you are driving lately?

[Rick Hilst]

I own a Honda Accord and a Nissan Quest van.

I have more questions but they will have to wait until after work.

[cschang]

Rick,

As some have pointed out, outside of the all the technicalities, the end result is what everyone is after.

Did you do this kind of research when you chose your speakers? Same type of questions about engineering? What makes speaker A better than speaker B? In the end, it is how the speaker performs.

When I bought my speakers, I did what I could to listen to speakers at all the shops. When I heard the Ascends, and at their price point....it was a done deal. But then I wanted to hear the other internet brands and was lucky enough to do so.....and was still happy that I chose the Ascends.

The same with my VTF-3. I was close to ordering an SVS, but the two things that sealed the deal for Hsu was, 1. more professional reviews and awards, and 2. I live close to them and lucky enough hear the sub at their facilities.

Four or five months after, and because of everything I read on the boards, I got the opportunity to compare my VTF-3 with a 20-39PC+. Needless to say, I think the VTF-3 is better. My curiosity with SVS is gone.

The end result is the proof.

by the way...I sent you a PM on AVSForum.

[Rick Hilst]

Did you do this kind of research when you chose your speakers? Same type of questions about engineering? What makes speaker A better than speaker B?
No. I did a lot more research when I was deciding on the receiver and speakers - of course, I haven't purchased the sub yet...
If you want freq resp of some of SVS subs, here are some
Where did these curves come from? Who measured them under what conditions?

Do you have similar curves for the Hsu subs (measured under similar conditions)?

I understand how to interpret the Hz vs ddb vs HzB curves but am less certain how to interpret the volts vs time impulse curves. For a perfect subwoofer, should these curves be nicely damped (smooth w/ no rough edges) curves that quickly settle to zero? If not, what should they look like? And how does a deviation from the "ideal" translate into something audible?


It is of critical importance to match amplifier characteristics with the driver and enclosure.
Is it equally as important to match the amp/receiver with the five speakers in a surround sound system? Have all of us who purchased amp/receiver X from manufacturer Y and speakers from manufacturer Z screwed up? If not, what makes the coupling of the amp and driver/enclosure for a sub so critical?

On a different note, has anything been published about the subs (VTF-3 and others) coming out next month as far as new features. I read several postings that alluded to things but none that actually spelled out what was coming.

[Michael Bain]

Keep firing away! Clarification and understanding is always a good thing.

Where did these curves come from? Who measured them under what conditions?

Do you have similar curves for the Hsu subs (measured under similar conditions)?

Those curves are from some of the reviews that was done on some of their products. Those curves are not directly applicable here because no other subwoofer was measured in those tests!

I mentioned this earlier, but the only directly comparable frequency response test that I know about is depicted above by H. Ferstler (TN1220HO and VTF-3 +-0db's at 20Hz, the svs was -5db's at 20Hz). If you want information about the methods, read the review available at this website or talk to H. Ferstler. Look at the Hsu reviews as a whole, and you can see that supremely flat and low frequency response is no fluke, it is the standard that they set.

Is it equally as important to match the amp/receiver with the five speakers in a surround sound system? Have all of us who purchased amp/receiver X from manufacturer Y and speakers from manufacturer Z screwed up? If not, what makes the coupling of the amp and driver/enclosure for a sub so critical?

It is pretty important to match any amp with the speaker or speakers that will be playing with it. Don't underestimate the importance of this in setting up a surround sound system. It is not really an issue of buying amps from the same manufacturer that made your speakers, that's not an important element. At the same time, surround speakers generally require different amplifier designs and different amplifier demands than a subwoofer. You would almost never want to use a subwoofer amplifier for your surround speakers, and vice versa. Think of it logically: if you had the choice of using a general purpose amp for your subwoofer vs an amp that was painstakenly designed specifically for your subwoofer, obviously you would want the latter situation. The reason we do not see this all the time is because the person who is building the subwoofer or speaker would also need to have a very good understanding of amplification and system integration as a whole. Fortunately for us, Dr. Hsu does!

On a different note, has anything been published about the subs (VTF-3 and others) coming out next month as far as new features. I read several postings that alluded to things but none that actually spelled out what was coming.

As you learn more about Hsu, you will see that they do not like to hype up any of their products, especially products that are not yet released. They prefer to let their customers and their reviewers do the talking.

[Rick Hilst]

I'm getting close to getting all my questions answered.

Do you know how to interpret the impulse curves?

Is there a way to measure "sound quality" or is it a "beauty is in the eye of the beholder" thing?

They prefer to let their customers and their reviewers do the talking
Nobody's talking - at least no one that I've read.

As far as the VTF-3 versus the TN1220HO, why would I pick one subwoofer versus the other?

[cschang]

Is there a way to measure "sound quality" or is it a "beauty is in the eye of the beholder" thing?[/B]

I do not think that it is something that can be necessarily measured. FWIW, there are some studies that actually show that some distortion is prefered by some in music reproduction. As far as what I heard, there is a definite difference in how the two subs sounded. What is better for one person I could not say, but I can say that the VTF-3 sounded better to me.


Nobody's talking - at least no one that I've read.

That's because the subs are not out yet.

As far as the VTF-3 versus the TN1220HO, why would I pick one subwoofer versus the other?

The TN1220HO with the 500watt is cleaner and tighter than even the VTF-3....and from what I understand even slightly lower.

[Michael Bain]

Good questions Rick, it is a bit difficult to interpret those curves with no other subwoofer for basis of comparison. In the general analysis done in this thread, those curves are not entirely relevant because of this (even when we point out response dips on the svs).

Some have argued that sonic characteristics of a speaker can be depicted when using a wide variety of tests. This is very debatable though. To make matters more tricky, subwoofer tests are usually not very comprehensive. Then there are extraneous variables such as room interaction and system settings, source material used, listener taste, et al. that are involved.

Choose the TN1220HO if you want: cleanest and loudest sound pressure levels at very low frequency, with noise from the port pretty much non-existant due to the port configuration and due to the very long length of the port, a subwoofer that takes up less floorspace and can be hidden behind a couch on it's side, or one or two subwoofers that can be used together with one of their top of the line 500 watt amp.

Choose the VTF-3 if you want: a subwoofer that fits better into most people's decor, the ability to use variable tuning, extra convenience of a powered sub, a subwoofer that can be used as an end table and is easier to place near the key seating position, and a subwoofer that has a lower center of gravity.

Both are a compelling choice because they both are able to maintain smooth and essentially +0db response at 20Hz, with very high maximum output levels too. The best overall system performance from Hsu Research at the moment is the dual TN1220HO package with 500 watt amp. The 500 watt amp is designed for use of up to two TN1220HO's. If you use one, it sends 500 watts. If you use two, it sends 2x400 watts. It is also more of a stand alone amp (ie not a plate amp), and it has a nice brushed aluminum finish. Possibly the best part of the amp, other than allowing dual hookup and class H power, is the high quality crossover and features that are useful for a audiophile music (2-channel) enthusiast. The VTF-3 has also undergone some changes since it's introduction (the current VTF-3 is a bit better now than what was used a while back for the reviews, because of some amp/driver/port tweaks). The new "luxury" items that will be included on the VTF-3 when it is back in stock will not be revealed until it is ready to go (confirming the theory that Hsu Research is not interested in hype, especially before the product is out).

[Michael Bain]

Nobody's talking - at least no one that I've read.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



That's because the subs are not out yet.

Both of these statements are not entirely true (unless you are talking about the STF models!). The reviews on the Hsu products are available on this website. On the forums, there is still some good support for Hsu products from a few customers, and this support group looks to be growing as we speak (but remember the barriers I mentioned earlier in this thread about certain forums and their slanted nature, so keep that in mind). It is ultimately up to each individual to do the proper research, as you are doing. This own forum is probably the best source of Hsu information you can find short of working side by side with Dr. Hsu.

[cschang]

OH...let me clarify. The NEW VTF subs.

[Sasha_G]

This is from the "monthly" newsletter we sent out a few months ago. It should shed some light on recent trends on the forums:

There is a growing and disturbing trend amongst newbies on internet forums regarding subwoofers. They think that high SPL (also known as volume level) equals sound quality and good frequency response. It is easy to create a high SPL subwoofer without accuracy and balance--harder to create an accurate one. You can throw a stack of non-accurate subwoofers against an accurate one and never match the sound quality. As far as we know, HSU Research's TN and VTF subwoofers provide the best accuracy and sound quality for the money while having SPL levels to back it up. Here are some excerpts that show how our products compare:

"the [$850 SVS 16-46PC] is not quite so clean at higher levels [compared with the VTF-3]...the SVS sub was 4 or 5 dB down from the Hsu [VTF-3] at 20 Hz...this allowed the Hsu to have a slight edge with really super-clean, super-deep bass program sources...the VTF-3 is the current champ of the low-priced super subwoofer class"
-Howard Ferstler, The Audiophile Voice (10/02)

[comparing the SVS 25-31PCi, Axiom EP-350, and VTF-3] "I would give the advantage to the HSU on classical music because it seemed the most accurate...Just for fun I played with some low test tones to see how each sub performed. The HSU easily won the battle, in playing the lowest audible frequencies below 20Hz"
-Brian Mitchell, Ecoustics(120/02)

[Note: Tom Nousaine is one of the only reviewers that takes into account distortion levels and uses relatively standardized measurement practices. Tom has not measured our VTF-3 yet, but for Sound & Vision he measured our $499 10-inch VTF-2. With under 10% total harmonic distortion, the HSU VTF-2 measured in at 109.7 dB from 25 to 62 Hz, and in max extension mode went to 93 db at 20 Hz. In the following article Tom reviews the SVS SV-20 package and we find their large tube with a big 12 inch driver has trouble beating the measured levels of the 10 inch VTF-2] "[the SVS SV-20] averages 109.5 dB in the 25-62 Hz region...91 dB at 20 Hz ...it's not necessarily as inexpensive as it looks on paper... If you buy the Fidek and a Paradigm X-30, the set will cost you a nearly grand."
Tom Nousaine - "The $ensible Sound" June/July 2001, Issue #86


It would be nice if there were a simple 1-10 scale to say how good a subwoofer is. Boiling it down to measurements is not easy, as what sounds good is ultimately a bit subjective.

How a sub is tested will end up influencing the sound. The interesting thing about Canadan speakers is that Canada has standardized testing facilities run by the government. If you have speakers, you bring it down and they conduct all sorts of quantitative and qualitative tests. That is one reason why Canadian speakers all tend to have a similar sound, because they've been tested using a certain system, and that system influences the re-designs of speakers as they develop.

Dr. Hsu has his own criteria of what makes a "good" subwoofer, including some quantitative tests. However, he will never tell what exactly they are becuase then other companies can just copy that. I don't know what exactly he looks for. You might be surprized at how hard it is to copy just the physical parts of a speaker, considering that almost all the time premade parts are used. The expense of molding an exact copy of a speaker is much, much higher than just using premade parts. You have to make changes based on the individual design, and you have to know "what you want". I thought that the SVS tubes were a copy of the TNs mechanics, but after hearing them I realized that they are a very different subwoofer.

However, all of us on this forum can work together to create our own "standard" for quantitative and qualitative testing methods used in subwoofers. It might be an interesting exercise.

There are some basics that should always be include:

1) Blind Listenting Tests: Double blind or variants of it should be used. Subwoofers should have their SPL levels matched at about 50 Hz or so. There have been blind listening tests conducted where inexpensive looking speakers have trumped expensive looking ones, only to be beaten in subsequent rounds when the lights were turned on. In other words, the visual aspects of a speaker overwhelm the auditory elements.

2) Frequency Response Charts: this is a very important criteria, and from what I've read in AES journals and from what I've discussed with others, very determinant of how good a speaker sounds. However, frequency repsonse varies with SPL, which leads to...

3) Dynamic Distortion: does the subwoofer change its frequency reponse at different levels? When playing at a loud 95 dB, it might be flat. But what about 105 dB? Is it still flat there? Mutliple charts should be provided.

4) Total Harmonic Distortion: Tom Nousaine considers this, but he only takes into account 10% distortion at the peaks! Not all woofers distort in the same rate. What are the distortion numbers like at 95 dB vs. 105 db. These should accompany the mutliple frequency response charts.


I'm sure there are other criteria. Tom Nousaine recently introduced the "Bass Evenness" criteria in his charts.

Adding to the challenge, is how measurements should be done. Unfortunately, it is practically impossible to take the "room" out of bass measurements, so measurements done in the outdoors are often used. But then, does that predict how a subwoofer will sound in a room? You have to design a subwoofer for a particular application, and testing it outside of its intended context can be misleading. I would guess that scientists would insist on oudoor measurements, but I'm not sure about this. This is one reason why we like Tom Nousaine's measurements, because they are done in the same listening location time after time. Anyhow, I'd like to add more to this discussion later...

[Michael Bain]

There are a couple of other factors not mentioned in this general analysis that are nevertheless relevant to some. With free shipping on all of their products and with a walk in location (in California, but you can also catch them sometimes during the year at various shows across the country), Hsu is giving the customers a good chance to audition the products with somewhat limited liability. Another factor to consider is how well the Hsu Research products hold their value. Since Dr. Hsu likes to keep familiar models names at the same time that he improves them, the older TN and VTF products ultimately hold their value better than older svs products. Keeping the model names the same for several years has some drawbacks too (mainly from a marketing standpoint where competitors can reference out of date data, and where competitors can try to put their newly named products in the spotlight), but the consumer does tend to win out with generally high resale value (and I wouldn't be surprised if many were upgrading to newer Hsu products!).

[Rick Hilst]

I think having some of the curves that you described (e.g., at 95 and 105 dB) would be very useful to someone trying to reach conclusions (like myself). I appreciate the difficulty in taking extraneous variables (like room effects) out of the equation.

If two subwoofers "sound different" in some way other than loudness (dB), there must be a way to measure what is different. It may be harder to classify the difference (although I think it is probably more just an education thing) and decide what is "better" (which may be different for two people).

For example, when I was looking at the five surround sound speakers, I got pretty good at evaluating how a speaker would sound based on the dB versus Hz curves. It's one of the things that lead me to decide on the Rockets (I like more emphasis on the lower versus higher frequencies).

My curiosity is piqued on how to interpret the impulse curves. I think I'm going to do some research on that topic.

[Michael Bain]

On a more personal note, I can tell you that the Hsu Research Community has come into existence and grown because all of us share a deep appreciation for Dr. Hsu and his products, usually after experiencing them first hand. Most of us became interested in Hsu Research based on independent and analytical research, not from jumping onto the bandwagon after reading overzelous stories at the other overwhelmingly slanted internet forums. It is really great to see you, Rick, not simply accepting as fact any bit of information that you have been told or have seen on the internet, but rather questioning it based on analytical reasoning. In all the talks I have had with my audiophile friends and with audio professionals in the industry, I can say with pride and great confidence that Hsu Research is truly respected by their industry peers. This respect stems from the main man, Dr. Hsu. Through his research and technical acumen (in addition to his very humble and honest nature), he has taken large steps to push the industry forward by offering high performance products at very affordable prices using clever technology, and that's why the people at this forum are so appreciative and supportive of Hsu Research.

[cschang]

Originally posted by Rick Hilst
For example, when I was looking at the five surround sound speakers, I got pretty good at evaluating how a speaker would sound based on the dB versus Hz curves. It's one of the things that lead me to decide on the Rockets (I like more emphasis on the lower versus higher frequencies).

Rick, that is very interesting. Which model have you chosen or heard?

I like a flat accurate curve.

What are you looking for in a sub?

[Michael Bain]

Here is a reasonably good definition that I found for impulse response:

impulse response : Impulse response is the manner in which a device (usually a transducer of some sort) behaves after the initial energy input (sound) has stopped. An impulse is a signal or sound that has a very short, in fact, a vanishingly small, duration. A true mathematical impulse has zero duration and infinite amplitude, but still a finite amount of energy. The energy in an impulse is spread evenly over a wide frequency band, and this means that it can be used as a test signal to measure the characteristics of an audio device. The impulse response convolved with an input signal gives the output response.

It seems that impulse response may be one way to measure how much overhang there is in the sound. In other words, how much output is still being produced after the initial sound signal has stopped. Also, a flatness on an impulse response curve is generally preferred. The subwoofers that are chategorized as tight and clean and musical usually have very little overhang, and they in turn generally have rapid transient response and good ability to distinguish one bass note from another in sequence. This is one area that Hsu is quite good at. Most people who have compared Hsu and svs side by side have noticed that Hsu has audibly better transient response and more definition to the bass notes. If you have some time, maybe you can breach the subject of impulse response with Dr. Hsu over phone.

[tdekany]

Hey Rick - what convinced you to buy the Rockets and what other brands did you considered?



Originally posted by Rick Hilst
I think having some of the curves that you described (e.g., at 95 and 105 dB) would be very useful to someone trying to reach conclusions (like myself). I appreciate the difficulty in taking extraneous variables (like room effects) out of the equation.

If two subwoofers "sound different" in some way other than loudness (dB), there must be a way to measure what is different. It may be harder to classify the difference (although I think it is probably more just an education thing) and decide what is "better" (which may be different for two people).

For example, when I was looking at the five surround sound speakers, I got pretty good at evaluating how a speaker would sound based on the dB versus Hz curves. It's one of the things that lead me to decide on the Rockets (I like more emphasis on the lower versus higher frequencies).

My curiosity is piqued on how to interpret the impulse curves. I think I'm going to do some research on that topic.

[tdekany]

It may or may not be helpful to you, but as far as my experience is conserned: every product that I've purchased based on Stereophile's recommendations have sounded exactly the way the reviewers said they would.

[Rick Hilst]

What are you looking for in a sub?
I like action, adventure and science fuction movies so I am looking for a sub that provides the full HT experience down to at least 20Hz. I am not looking for high dBs or to shake the entire house but I am looking for a sub that provides that low end energy that makes many of these types of films so enjoyable.

On the music side, I'm more open-minded and less sure of what I'm looking for. While I like organ music and other music that dips down to fairly low Hz, it's not the kind of music I normally listen to (perhaps because I've never owned a quality sub).

FWIW, my daughter loves rap music and has dual 12" subs in her car.
what convinced you to buy the Rockets and what other brands did you consider?
I must have read 100 professional reviews and thousands of individual postings. I seriously considered at least the following systems (I may be forgetting some):

o Onix Rockets
o Ascend
o Aperion
o Axion
o Definitive
o B&W
o Paradigm
o Boston Acoustics
o Monitor Audio
o NHT

I auditioned at least one surround system for each of these except Ascend, Aperion and Axion (all online companies) and NHT.

I ultimately selected the Rockets for the following reasons:

o When I auditioned them (drove 2 hours to a complete stranger's house to do this), I thought they sounded great
o I felt that the online vendors offered better price/value
o The Rockets emphasize the lower and middle part of the sound spectrum. I found that the speakers that more emphasized the upper part of this spectrum (the bright speakers) sounded good at very low volumes but became irritating as the volume was turned up. I definitely preferred the speakers that de-emphasize the higher frequencies
o I liked the Bigfoot center speaker. I wanted a system that put a lot of emphasis on the center speaker since that is where the vast majority of sound originates for TV and DVDs

When I started I thought that I would prefer the flat response as well. I discovered that I actually preferred speakers that de-emphasized the upper frequencies.
If you have some time, maybe you can breach the subject of impulse response with Dr. Hsu over phone
It sounds like Dr. Hsu has more important things to do that discuss impulse curves with me.

[DavidD]

This has been a fascinating and mostly very positive thread. I think many of you have done a great job of expressing what so many of us like about Hsu products. Like others, I've heard the enthusiasm in some of the other forums for SVS subs, and also like others, I did some investigating. The SVS folks are very responsive to questions, and also very aggressive about promoting their products. I finally decided to stick with what I know and love (Hsu subs).

I imagine the SVS subs are good. I've only had a limited opportunity to audition one, and it certainly wasn't bad. However, they tend to focus on customers who seek output over everything else, whether it is extension or quality. Louder is better, for the most part. I certainly don't want an anemic sub, and no Hsu subs are anemic, but quality and extension are equally important. I'm staying right here for my next purchase.

On another note -- Rick - I encourage you to contact Dr. Hsu if you have questions the rest of us can't answer. I have found him to be very approachable and easy to talk to. Just another reason to stick with Hsu, I guess.

[cschang]

Rick!

That is the best post I have read all day! And this is a great thread.

Now we have to find you a sub!

[tdekany]

It sounds like Dr. Hsu has more important things to do that discuss impulse curves with me

Even when purchasing a pair of 1203 subs you have the opportunity to talk to the Dr. He really goes out of his way to help!

I auditioned at least one surround system for each of these except Ascend, Aperion and Axion (all online companies) and NHT

So far I have bought 3 things in life that even after years of using I still like enough and get so much satisfaction out of them that I would not replace. My NHT speakers ( big mistake for not listening to them) my Hsu subs and my car:
http://www.digitalpose.com/mbr/1/22363/p/452923_5724876523882390560_vl.jpg

[cschang]

Originally posted by tdekany
big mistake for not listening to them.....

Yeah...the Ascends too!! :D

[Michael Bain]

It sounds like Dr. Hsu has more important things to do that discuss impulse curves with me.

My apologies for quoting this again, but I wanted to chime in here. Whether discussing subwoofers, amplifiers, low frequencies, physics, or anything relating to the audio field in general, Dr. Hsu loves to talk with the consumers about this. His passion is audio, and he has had this passion for so many years. If Dr. Hsu is not completely tied up in the office or out of town, you might be able to get to him on the phone. I would imagine that Dr. Hsu and his team are very busy right now getting the new product ready, so it's nice to see you looking out for their situation. If you can't get through on the phone, definitely try Dr. Hsu's email, he should give you some further thoughts on the subject. Many of us on this forum have had technical questions in the past, and sometimes only Dr. Hsu can give us a clear answer. That said, Sasha Goodman is doing an admirable job answering questions on this forum and keeping people up to date on what is happening at Hsu Research.

[Michael Bain]

Sweet car tdekaney!

[Rick Hilst]

I just re-read my last post. Axion should have been Axiom. My bad.

[tdekany]

Originally posted by Michael Bain
Sweet car tdekaney!

gracias

[Rick Hilst]

My NHT speakers (big mistake for not listening to them)
I very seriously considered NHT. I came close to purchasing a set of 5 SB2s (while I was still trying to stay within a budget). When the budget went out the window (long story), I wanted to get M5s for the front and center and L5s for the surround speakers. However, I ultimately decided that the receiver I bought (while I was still working within a budget) didn't have enough juice to drive the M5s/L5s. By then I wasn't willing to settle for the SB2s so I started looking at other systems (again).
Yeah...the Ascends too
I read all the (positive) reviews on the Ascends and also seriously considered them. However, unlike Onix (av123), to listen to the Ascends, you needed to purchase them for an in-house trial (versus listening to another owner's system). To me, this was going to be a big hassle, which, had I not found another system to my liking, I might have been willing to do.

I used the audioenvy.com web site to set up a visit to audition the Rockets. This visit went very well, the couple who hosted us was very nice and their enthusiasm for the system was contagious (much more so than the average salesman).

If I could have done the same thing for the Ascends (or Aperions or Axioms), things might have turned out differently.

I read somewhere recently something that said that Ascend was trying to set up a similar system to audioenvy.

The subwoofers that are categorized as tight and clean and musical usually have very little overhang, and they in turn generally have rapid transient response and good ability to distinguish one bass note from another in sequence.
If I interpret this correctly, the time that is takes for volts to reset to zero for the plotted sub is about 1/12 sec (80 ms - I'm estimating since the X axis for the graphs don't show a complete reset to zero). This would mean that the minimum time lag between the end of one note and the start of another note would have to be 1/12 sec before the notes would start to overlap. I'm not a musician nor an audio specialist (and I've long forgotten my physics) but I can believe for music that a 1/12 sec recovery time could cause notes to blend together. However, for HT, it seems unlikely that this would occur (how close together could you put two explosions or two steps for a tyrannosaurus?).

I'm wondering how quickly a low frequency note dissipates when it is bouncing off lots of walls. Can you space notes close enough together so that the 1/12 sec recovery time is an issue?

On a different note, I've decided to wait until after the new VTF-3s are out to make my decision on a sub.

[cschang]

Originally posted by Rick Hilst
If I could have done the same thing for the Ascends (or Aperions or Axioms), things might have turned out differently.

I read somewhere recently something that said that Ascend was trying to set up a similar system to audioenvy.

We are a bit side tracked, but you could have done the same thing. Ascend and Axiom have owners across the country that are willing to have you in their homes for demos.

There is an Ascend forum at www.ascendforum.com. And I believe I have seen you on the Axiom forum as well....which also has a section of willing owners.

And also just asking on one of the larger forums such as AVSForum or HTF would have gotten you pointed in the right direction. I think calling either company would have pointed you to the respective forums as well.

[Ddavidson]

On a different note, I've decided to wait until after the new VTF-3s are out to make my decision on a sub.

Looking at what Sasha has said and hinted at, I think the revisions could be of significant value over the current Vtf-3. Although that said, I am very very happy with my both my current Vtf subs. Still it is good to see Hsu making improvements to the Vtf-3 which is a stunning sounding subwoofer.

Ddavidson

[Michael Bain]

Do you think that these will be upgrades to the performance of the VTF-3? Sasha G mentioned some type of "luxury" upgrades, but that was purposely vague to not let the cat out of the bag. I know Hsu Research is using upgraded (ie newly designed) ports in their products, but nothing in detail yet. One note about Hsu Research is that they constantly improve their products, most of the time without even mentioning it, let alone boasting about it.

[mendes9]

Rick,

If you talk to pro HSU folks, they will tell you get HSU, if you talk to pro SVS folks they say get SVS. In the end... the only folks you can trust is un-biased reviews... So far. those reviews seem to point to HSU as being the better product.. however.. I will say that folks that have compared the 2... including the reviews as you read for the most part say that both SVS and HSU sound very identical. In general I trust Stereophile reviews.. the VTF3 in my opinion is the sub to get, it's true tried and tested. I haven't heard a bad word about it from anyone..

[cschang]

Originally posted by mendes9
Rick,

I will say that folks that have compared the 2... including the reviews as you read for the most part say that both SVS and HSU sound very identical.

Can you point us to some of these? Because in my listening, it definitely was not the case.

[Michael Bain]

In a sense it is valid that really everyone has a slight bias towards what they own even if it is unintentional. On the other hand, many of us on this forum have had the opportunity to listen to other subwoofers, at times side by side with a Hsu Research product, and that includes velodyne, paradigm, REL, svs (which by the way really does not sound very similar to the Hsu Research products; they both have the ability to play loud, but in my very humble opinion the Hsu Research products have the edge in sound quality and bass definition, and I think many people agree with that assessment), and many others. We have had the opportunity to discuss products with some of the very well respected minds in the audio business. We do not swear by Hsu because that is what overzelous people on the internet urged us to buy (as is often the case with svs for some reason), but rather in part due to heavy research and analysis in addition to listening experience with other good products as well as our own great experience with the people at Hsu Research. I think we are collectively not ones to boast very much, but at the same time we know how well the Hsu products stand against the competition.

[Lwang]

Originally posted by cschang
I will say that folks that have compared the 2... including the reviews as you read for the most part say that both SVS and HSU sound very identical.
Can you point us to some of these? Because in my listening, it definitely was not the case.

What was meant was that "including" those reviews that said both "sound" very identical. That includes many of the objective reviewere, that thinks SPL is SPL and freq resp is freq resp. That is why reviews that heavily emphasize subjective evaluations (and not just w/HT boom materials) like stereophile becomes valuable.

[Rick Hilst]

I appreciate all the input I have received in this thread. I want to thank everyone for taking their time to answer my questions. It's definitely had an impact on my decision.

A week ago I was debating which SVS sub to get and thinking that I should check out Hsu just to be thorough. Now I'm pretty much convinced that the Hsu subs are better engineered and overall superior subs to the SVS subs (particularly for music).

[Michael Bain]

Rick, thanks for helping contribute to the Hsu Community! It is really nice to see a more analytical approach on the forum.

One thing that I think is very important when actually getting a subwoofer is making sure that it is placed and set up in the room as carefully as possible. This element is absolutely critical, and setup will vary depending on room dynamics and listener taste. I urge everyone to use Dr. Hsu and the Hsu Research team and this forum as a resource to help achieve maximized results in room. There are very subtle elements of re-positioning, crossover frequency, calibration, etc that can sometimes help to even further improve the sound or heighten the impact of the sound, and Dr. Hsu is extremely well versed in all of these areas.

[Rick Hilst]

I've attached a JPEG image of the floor plan for my great room. Included in this floor plan are two chairs/ottomans, a sofa, a TV and an entertainment center. Also included are potential locations for a TN1220HO or VTF-3.

I filled out the positioner form on the first page of this web site and Dr. Hsu recommended one of the two corners (with circles numbered 2 and 3).

The numbered circles 1-3 are the three possible locations for the TN1220HO. The rectangles numbered 4-5 are the two possible locations for the VTF-3.

The following are the advantages (A) and disadvantages (D) of the various positions.

1 (A) Hides the TN out of sight from the right side of the room. (D) Unknown whether acoustics will be good in this position. (D) Possible vibration problem w/ entertainment center

2 (A) Corner recommended by Dr Hsu. (A) Equi-distant from each of the listening spots. (D) Not hidden

3 (A) Corner recommended by DR Hsu. (A/D) Closer to seating positions (D) Not hidden - but partially obstructed by chair

4 (A) Hidden from sight from most room angles (A) Could serve as an end table (A/D) Close to seating position (D) May block vent (D) Not in a corner

5 (A) Good location for an end table (A/D) Close to seating position (D) Not in a corner (D) Visible from several angles

Being visible is a disadvantage for the VTF since neither rosewood nor black goes well with the room's decor.

I need to decide between the TN and VTF subs. I'm fighting WAF on this one so being visible is not good, particularly for the 51" tall TN.

What are your recommendations? Is it obvious to anyone which sub/position would work best? Is there one I've overlooked?

[Michael Bain]

Let's break things down by subwoofer (keeping in mind that Wife Acceptance Factor is important, particularly keeping the subwoofer out of view as much as possible).

TN1220HO:

--Position #3 would be very good because you would get the full effect of corner loading, and the sub would be behind the audiences viewing angle while watching the television. You could even place the sub on it's side (North to South on your diagram) so that it is essentially out of view on the vertical plane.

VTF-3:

--Position #3 again could work well, and you would get the full effect of corner loading. If you orient this sub on the vertical plane (so that it is facing North to South on your diagram), it would not block the door to the deck. Just keep in mind that you should leave a few inches in the back of this sub so that air from the ports can flow freely.

--Position #5 would be good because the subwoofer could be used as an end table, and because of the nearfield listening effect. Placing the subwoofer near the main listening position can often lead to heightened impact in the sound. However, you would not get the benefits of corner loading to maximize sound pressure levels throughout the room.

While you should certainly experiment with all of these positions in your room, I think you would do quite well with either the TN1220HO or VTF-3 in Position #3. Some of the main advantages of this position include positive effects of corner-loading, in addition to keeping the subwoofer behind the listeners.

I think you would be very wise to wait until the VTF-3 is back in stock (supposedly sometime in November), and see what upgrades Hsu has in store for us.

[Michael Bain]

By the way, at the top left and right hand corners of this picture, how many inches do you have from the corner to each respective deck door? Also, what program did you use to draw that diagram? It looks good!

[tdekany]

I think you would be very wise to wait until the VTF-3 is back in stock (supposedly sometime in November), and see what upgrades Hsu has in store for us.

The TN still remain Hsu's Flagship product - which means it is the best sounding sub Hsu offers. m2c

[Michael Bain]

I agree with that (and even more so if the TN1220HO is purchased with the 500 watt amp). At the same time, the VTF-3 is much easier to hide on the vertical plane if the TN1220HO cannot be easily placed on it's side in room.

[tdekany]

Originally posted by Michael Bain
I agree with that (and even more so if the TN1220HO is purchased with the 500 watt amp). At the same time, the VTF-3 is much easier to hide on the vertical plane if the TN1220HO cannot be easily placed on it's side in room.

especially if you get 2 subs: that is 800 watts! My next system!

[Rick Hilst]

how many inches do you have from the corner to each respective deck door?
The problem with the corner isn't blocking the door. It's that there's an air vent in the corner (actually both corners). To avoid blocking the vent I would have to position the sub a little ways from the side wall (the one with the fireplace).
what program did you use to draw that diagram?
At furniturelandsouth.com (we bought some furniture there) they have a program for laying out a room. I set up a room to match our great room and took a screen shot of that room and pasted it into Paint to make some final edits.

I originally made some modifications to get some help from av123 (the numbered arrows correspond to some digital photos I took and sent to them). BTW, it looked a lot better before I started dinking with it in Paint.

It takes a little patience to use the room layout tool (rotating furniture is a pain). The user interface isn't too great but if you stick with it you can create a decent looking picture (I shouldn't complain since it's free

[Ddavidson]

As a secondary question what is the ideal crossover point for your mains?

Ddavidson

[Rick Hilst]

As a secondary question what is the ideal crossover point for your mains?
Whoa! This is a question from left field.

Once I get a sub I think I'll start at 80 Hz and make changes from there.

BTW, my Rockets just arrived this afternoon. Unfortunately, between having to paint a couple rooms (including the HT room) and my son playing in a soccer tournament this weekend, it will probably be middle of next week before I can get them set up.

Just out of curiosity, how many posts do you have to make before you get "promoted" from "junior member" to "member"?

[Michael Bain]

With air vents in each corner of your room, it seems that position #3 would work well for you if you orient the subwoofer north to south on your diagram. You should leave a few inches for the subwoofer port(s) to fire anyway.

Now that I look more closely at your diagram, it certainly does look like it was edited with MS Paint (the arrows, erase marks, etc). Great stuff! :D

[Ddavidson]

Whoa! This is a question from left field.

Considering that the frequency capabilities of each model of the Rockets actual varies between 38 Hz to 20 KHz (± 3 dB) to 60 Hz to 20 KHz (± 3 dB) the ideal crossover point will indeed have a bearing on your localization of the subwoofer in some spots in your room.

Many people can not vary the crossover because its fixed within their processor or receiver. If your speaker choice can not play well enough in the low octaves it can limits you on choosing a position . If your mains play can play down to 38-40Hz (± 3 dB) I think position 2 crossed over in the surround decoder at 60-65Hz (24dB) would be my choice as the best first up test. Your room size looks good from a axial resonance standpoint.


Ddavidson

[Rick Hilst]

I bought the Rocket #2 package (2 750s fronts, 200 center, 2 300s rear).

I'm a little bit concerned about the ability of my NAD T752 receiver (which I bought first) to drive the five speakers. Therefore, I will probably set the crossover higher to help offload the receiver (since the lower frequencies demand more power).

[tdekany]

Originally posted by Rick Hilst
I bought the Rocket #2 package (2 750s fronts, 200 center, 2 300s rear).

I'm a little bit concerned about the ability of my NAD T752 receiver (which I bought first) to drive the five speakers. Therefore, I will probably set the crossover higher to help offload the receiver (since the lower frequencies demand more power).

You will be just fine with the NAD. Awesome brand!

[DavidD]

Rick -

NAD is generally pretty conservative in rating their power output. Unless you're playing at ear-shattering levels (not recommended if you value your hearing), I think you'll do just fine. If the receiver has pre-outs, you can always add external amplifer(s) later if you want.

How about a TN1220 on its side behind the chairs? You certainly wouldn't be able to see it while you're sitting there, but it would be visible from other vantage points.

[Rick Hilst]

I read somewhere that, while you can lay the cylindrical subs flat, the sound quality suffers (plus I wonder whether there are other adverse effects).

Does Hsu recommend laying the TN1220 on its side?

It's such a tall sub (51") it seems that you would need a long piece of furniture (love seat or sofa) to do this. I don't think the space between the two chairs would work.

[DavidD]

You're right, the 1220 is pretty long. I didn't pay much attention to the scale. I should probably let the Hsu folks speak for themselves regarding laying it on its side, but....based upon previous things I've read, I don't believe they have a problem with that at all. I've had a 1225 (smaller, but no longer sold) on its side in my house for several years.

[Michael Bain]

There is no inherent problem in laying the TN1220HO on it's side, and you lower the center of gravity at the same time. If you put it North to South in position #3, it would be like a front firing long subwoofer with a rear firing port (in normal configuration, TN subwoofers have an upward firing driver, and downward firing port). Just make sure to leave a few inches of space in between the port and the wall. The main reason to leave the TN1220HO upright in it's normal configuration is because use of floorspace is minimized, and some of the port flow is absorbed by the surface below.

[Ddavidson]

A fair amount of people seem to have their TN series horizontal. Dr Hsu has promoted this as a viable option for its TN s positioning. But remember especially with the very long 1220 the low bass comes from the port, while the upper bass is mostly produced by the driver so it pays to take this into account when listening.

Because positioning it 180 degrees will change the way it reacts with your room acoustics at your sweet spot (listening chair). Its all about the best location when trying to balance the best from a subwoofer and a rooms accoustics. Many people have very bad rooms (accoustically) that will simply never sound good no matter how good the equipment they buy.



Ddavidson

[cschang]

I just did a search on audiogon.com....a couple of good deals:

http://cgi.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cl.pl?spkrmoni&1072077000
http://cgi.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/auc.pl?homesubw&1068265337

there are a few more too...but at regular prices.

The TN1220HO looks very tempting!

[Rick Hilst]

For the TN1220HO, the following bullet is included:

o 18-100 Hz ± 1 dB frequency response

I find this to be incredible. Does anyone know where I can see a frequency response curve that backs up this claim?

Also, how firm is the Nov 21 date? How long has the VTF-3 been unavailable? Isn't it hurting Hsu to not be selling one of its major products?

[cschang]

I'm sure the delays are hurting sales. I don't see it any other way.

by the way, for the VTF-3:
18-125 Hz ± 1 dB

[Michael Bain]

18-100 Hz ± 1 dB frequency response

I find this to be incredible. Does anyone know where I can see a frequency response curve that backs up this claim?

I have noticed +0db response at 20Hz and -3db response at 16Hz in two of the reviews available at this website in the TN1220HO section. -1db at 18Hz sounds pretty good. VTF-3 has had similar results.

[Michael Bain]

One of the things that is quite refreshing about Hsu Research is that they have still stayed humble, even when more and more internet companies have popped up in the last few years. I think Hsu is quite aware of who is real supporters are by now, and many of the people who help positively contribute to this forum are included in this group definitely.

[Lwang]

18-100 Hz ± 1 dB frequency response

I find this to be incredible. Does anyone know where I can see a frequency response curve that backs up this claim?

Hsu knows the response of his subwoofer unamplified, then design circuitry around it to give it a flat response. They don't go design a sub by plugging equations into a design program and hope it comes out right.

[Todd B.]

I think that the musical aspect of Hsu subs that people keep referring to is actually their ability to be articulate. I believe that ability is mostly dependent upon their performance regarding impulse response, as was mentioned earlier. Of the comparisons I read between HSU and SVS subs prior to purchasing a VTF-2 several months ago, when the person(s) doing the comparing addressed the issue of differences in level of articulation, every single time they stated that the HSU was better, regardless of which particular subs were involved in the comparison.

Rick Hilst, I don't like positions 1,2, or 3 for your potential sub placement. Corner placement will excite more room modes, and while it allows for greater output, it will also tend to make that output one-note like. Positions 4 and 5 would probably provide the most accurate bass, at the expense of output. Along the wall to the right of your entertainment center should provide a decent compromise between accuracy and output, as should along the wall behind the sofa.

As for WAF, have you considered the possibility of making/buying covers for the subs? Maybe floating this idea would distract your SO from the issue of which sub you're considering. :)

[Michael Bain]

If I go with a VTF-3, position 5 (or maybe position 3 set a few inches away from the side wall) would probably be my choice. If I choose position 5, should I face the VTF-3 towards the front wall (i.e., towards the TV) or toward the back?

In position #5, it is probably most natural to place the VTF-3 towards the front wall (with the ports firing to the rear). In reality, you should try out all of these positions and you will find something that works best for you.

[Sasha_G]

Wow,

There is so much stuff to cover here, and I've only been able to skim some of the messages.

First, I'd like to give a "shout out" to the Home Theater Spot as truly being one of the most friendly communities out there. Paul has been great, and by starting the HSU forum there he deserves a lot of respect. I'm NOT banned, and Paul has been very gracious. We'd love to send him a front firing VTF-3 as he requested, but unfortunately we are changing all the VTF-3s to downfiring for the upcoming production run.

Second, I'd like to try and clear up some of the rules on this forum.

It is my duty to try and keep objectionable messages off this forum, but it is impossible to review all the messages. All messages express the views of the author.

It IS perfectly legal for people to express:

1) their opinions about what they see the media and internet, and to question the validity of claims on the internet.

2) It is also legal for people to express their opinions on products for sale on this site.

However, when possible, I will remove and correct defamatory comments.

Which brings me to the latest version of our Forum rules, which are:

3) This forum is a marketing device about positive ways to benefit from our products. It is not a source for negative commentary, and we cannot endorse the validity of any negative comments. Therefore, I will try and remove or rebuke any unproven biased negative comments. It is not the intention of HSU Research to mislead any customer and therefore purchase decisions should not be solely based on the forum.

4) Even though it is legal to compare products, we do not condone reviews of other products on our forum, especially ones that just serve to to advertise that other product. We need to know about the methods used in making comparisons before we let them on our forum. Any unauthorized comparisons should be reported to me.


Okay,
I'd like to clear up some of the factual errors I've read so far:

1) The talk about an internet member getting banned was related to the Home Theater Forum. Barry Barnes and a number of his freinds conducted a comparison between SVS and HSU products and was soon banned. I recall talking with Barry on the phone afterward and confirmed that he was banned from the forum. He was pretty bitter about it, because he thought he was just "telling it like it is".

2) Bob, who has been a very vocal fan of our products, rubbed the administrators at a few forums the wrong way. I'm not sure which forums he got banned from. I've read many threads where he would be taunted and insulted by other forum members after writing about a product they didn't want to hear about, to which he would defend himself and perhaps go too far. People would ask why he was talking about subwoofers when he didn't own one. I think moderators felt that he caused a lot of conflict.

3) I can't substantiate posts about SVS "offering a bribe" to the AVS forum people. That is a serious accusation and I will remove that post. The only thing I've heard from David at AVS was that there was some sort of disagreement between the two parties at one time. That might be cleared up now.

4) Also, as Paul from Home Theater Spot has cleared up, Bary Barnes was not banned from that forum.

Anyhow, if there is anything I've missed, please let me know.

[EdS]

A couple of points from my perspective. I consider myself to be fairly objective, and up until a few weeks I was probably going to end up ordering a SVS box sub, based mostly on the number of reviews and responses at the various forums (HTF, HTSpot, AVS). Since that time, I’ve had a change heart, based on my observations below, and I'm leaning towards the Hsu, and expect to purchase either a VTF-3 or STF-3 at the beginning of the New Year. One note, nothing here is meant to impugn or attack anyone's character, just a couple of comments/observations.

1) One has to admit that it is very unusual to have the continuous number of daily posts on these forums, particularly HTF, which give rave reviews of SVS. This is not to say that SVS isn't a good product, however with the possible exception of the Swan Diva/Rocket speakers, I've yet to see any product, be they electronics or speakers, that generates the almost perpetual "buzz" that SVS receives. I'm sure that SVS makes a quality product, but so does Hsu, Adire, and other internet sub providers. So, any ideas why SVS has far and away the most buzz of any sub on the forums mentioned above?

2) I have read the posts where someone says they prefer Hsu to SVS after directly comparing the two products, followed quickly by a rush of SVS defenders, at times including the two SVS owners, that attack or otherwise disparage the conclusion of the reviewer. I see far fewer attacks (actually off hand I don't think I have seen any) by Hsu, Adire, or other quality sub owners when the reviewer says he prefers SVS to another sub.

3) My impressions, which may or may not agree with yours, but I sometimes see a bit of arrogance and disingenuous remarks by the SVS owners in some threads. At the same time, I've also seen them try to be helpful in other threads. In any case, they have a far stronger presence than any other owners I have ever seen.

4) I recently saw a segment on 60 Minutes about how many companies who can not afford a traditional marketing campaign of print ads, etc. use the internet to create a "buzz" for their products. I'm not accusing anyone of anything here, but it at least makes me wonder, but then again I am skeptical of anything that appears to be "too good to be true".

[Nigel_Pl]

Don't get sucked into popular opinion. It is best to approach everything with both logic and reason instead of following the masses. Just because product A is perceived to have more positive reviews does not mean that it is a better product. If we only relied on perception, especially sense perception we'd be nothing more than animals. Its is tragic ihat Ignorance can result in people adopting a mob type mentality out of fear that what they believe may be wrong.

Popular opinion when extended to politics, culture, economics, art, science etc can have a very negative effect because facts are ignored and because the majority is perceived as right...even when they may be wrong. Popular opinion is often controlled or directed when needed for the benefit of a few...not to say this is the case with SVS.

Everyone can have an opinion but one of the great things about human beings is their ability to discover truths in the universe that cannot be perceived through our senses and prove these universal principles through experimentation. These discoveries allow us to control the universe around us. Humans certainly could not fly safely if is weren't for our understanding of aerodynamics and gravitation...that is truth and not an opinion.

Audio engineers and technicians that have a firm grounding in sound reproduction apply their knowledge and creativity to create speakers that will accurately reproduce a recording. This involves a great deal of time and effort to balance all the parameters involved to achieve a flat frequency response across the audible range. They know if they have succeeded through testing the speaker using scientific measurements. The measurements provide them with a better understanding of the reproduced sound than listening alone.

This is why it is great to see reviewers who take the time to accurately measure the response of speakers. They can then describe what they heard and have the measurements to explain why it sounds that way. Others can take their own measurements to verify or dispute the claims. People who feel they need the security of popular opinion really need to be braver and trust themselves to discover the truth.

[Ddavidson]

Popular opinion when extended to politics, culture, economics, art, science etc can have a very negative effect because facts are ignored and because the majority is perceived as right...even when they may be wrong.
Nigel, Oh how I wish I could put it into words like you. just did. Well explained on something that I always seem to make sound like babbering. School was far too long ago and I missed far too many lessons in English.

Ddavidson

[Sasha_G]

Yes, that is a wonderful idea... the "tyranny of the majority".

Rick Hilst,
There are several reviews in professional publications with frequency response graphs of our products. They can be found here http://hsuresearch.com/reviews/ . In the end, its better to trust independent reviewers, since the way we spec our products may be different than another companies. We are working to get some independent specifications of frequency response and distortion (under 10% THD) by one of the most recognized names in subwoofer reviewing. Stay tuned.

As far as your room, I like number 3 the best, as long as the door to the deck remains closed. After that I would put it right behind the listners. You can also email it to Dr. Hsu at drhsu@hsuresearch.com.

[EdS]

Sasha,
The 60 Minutes show that had the segment on "alternative marketing methods" aired on October 26. Some of the examples they showed were:

1) Holding an event at a "hip, happening" type club. The reason given for the event might be to make some sort of announcement, the real reason for holding the event it to introduce a new type of alcoholic beverage or liquor which is being served and hyped by plants in the crowd.

2) Placing very attractive women at clubs, the intent is to have the women push a new brand of cigarrette (for example). The target has no idea that the women are pushing a product, instead they think they are being flirted with.

3) Hiring people to write reviews, push opinions, start/respond to threads, etc. on various intenet forums appropriate for the target market. There was one story of a boy who may not have been 16 years old, he would spend hours a day on the internet using various user names and profiles to get a buzz going about an upcoming release of a new video game.

The crux of the 60 Minutes segment was that in the past, at least people knew they were being marketed to in the form of print ads, TV, radio, etc. With these new marketing tactics, it is extremely difficult to tell whether or not you dealing with an enthusiastic user or somebody being paid to promote a product.

[Sasha_G]

[extended argument deleted]

Please be respectful of each other, the guy who owns this place, and the people who help run it. Please help contribute to the information here and help your fellow HT enthusiast out when in need.

I would like to officially urge that the tone of our forum threads not get too "sinister" when it comes to describing SVS. Indeed, there is marketing done on the internet forums by SVS, but lets try and separate, as best we can, what we know and don't know:

1) Most people I talk to say that Tom V. is actually a nice guy. Ron... well Ron has made some comparisons between his product and ours I don't appreciate, but you can't fault a guy too much for trying to sell his own stuff.

2) I have heard rumors (and first person accounts) about moderators and admins on popular home theater forums receiving SVS products in a special deal or for free. One must remember that Tom and Ron were frequent participants in the forums for a long period of time, before starting their business, so there would be a natural curiosity from the community and the people who keep it running about their products. As Paul from Home Theater Spot has said, he "approached SVS and made a barter exchange for a discount in advertising so they were not “GIVEN”". If I recall correctly, David Bott at AVS was given some sort of deal also. I'm not sure what happened at Home Theater Forum. However, one can't hold it against them to be curious, and just to be just be clear, they were not 'bribed'.

3) The talk about Barry getting unfairly banned was related to the Home Theater Forum, not AVS or HTS. For those who don't know, Barry Barnes and a number of his freinds conducted a detailed comparison between SVS and HSU products and was soon banned. I recall talking with Barry on the phone afterward and confirmed that he was banned from the forum. He was pretty bitter about it, because he thought he was just "telling it like it is". I don't think he deserved to be banned, and I think it had to do with the politics that Barry was bringing up embarassing questions about SVS, who are major sponsors of the site.

4) It is true that Bob has been banned by a couple forums, sometimes after mentioning HSU products in comparison with SVS. I think it had to do with moderators feeling that the way he said things caused conflict, not JUST what he said.
I've read many threads where he would quickly reject people's point of view, and it would hurt peoples feelings and they would swing back. People would ask why he was talking about subwoofers when he didn't own one.

5) I can't substantiate reports about SVS "offering a bribe" to the AVS forum folks. I will remove, as I have just done, any posts referring to serious accusations like that. If you have some facts, send it to me via email at sales@hsuresearch.com. The only thing I've heard from David at AVS was that there was a serious disagreement between the two parties at one time. That might be cleared up now.

6) Also, the Theater Spot (HTS) is a top notch forum, and I respect Paul who runs the place. Bary Barnes was not banned from that forum. Paul likes our products.

7) AVSforum.com is also a top notch place also, and David is a very nice guy who likes us.

Anyhow, if there is anything I've missed, please let me know.

Turning to the topic of the internet forums in general, one must be careful about what third party information you hear there (also known as 'gossip'). False truths can spread very quickly.

One also must be cautious about things that seem "too good to be true". I must tell you that companies are using the internet forums to do "viral" marketing without you knowing it. The internet forums are extremely empowering for consumers, but like email are subject to abuse. My point in mentioning viral marketing is to encourage people to not trust everyone they meet on the forums. I find some of the techniques to be disturbing, and would never let HSU Research do them. I was disgusted when I read about a few of them.

Here is an example: Hire a viral marketing firm, who in turn does the dirty work. They write a bunch of testimonials, and then create multiple accounts on free email services. Through these email addresses they post to various accounts on the internet forums and consumer review sites. An internet savvy person reading this will understand it is incredibly easy to do viral marketing, incredibly cheap, incredibly effective, and incredibly deceiving.

Here is another, equally disturbing example: approach vocal people on the internet and offer them discounts or deals under the table. The catch: tell them you "expect" positive reviews in exchange.


How can you fight these kinds of tactics?

a: Relationships. Get to know your fellow forum members! There is no excuse for being a lurker and trusting everything you hear from strangers. Send out personal messages to people. Many people will even invite you to see their home theater if you live in the area. Let others on the forums know who your trusted friends are.

b. Healthy Scepticism: when someone gives an opinion, do what scientists do. Ask HOW they determined their information. If they say, such and such product is "good", ask them to use a few more words than just "good" or "bad".


We can make the internet forums a better place if we try. AVS Forum and Home Theater Spot are well moderated forums, which helps. But in the end it is up to all of us to have a healthy skepticism and to know the people behind the posts.

I am going to put my foot down and say that this thread about SVS and HSU is OVER. Discussions about our brands have led to the repeated, boring, "PC vs. MAC" type arguments. The forums quicky turn to radical polar viewpoints because of pride of ownership, passion, and the permanent nature of internet posts. With spoken language, talk hurdles by and dissapears. With posts, langauge takes on more power and weight. More offense is taken and misstatements are not repaired as quickly.

HSU is not a new business, and we have had "word of mouth" supporters long before the up and comer SVS entered the picture. As our supporters discover the internet, more and more will be entering the forums. It is important that these kinds of discussions end quickly when they turn nasty.

I wish we could all get a beer together and make up. But since we live accross the country, somebody needs to email me the name of a good beer of the month club.



NO MORE COMPARISONS BETWEEN SVS AND HSU PRODUCTS AND SERVICES ARE ALLOWED ON THIS FORUM, UNLESS THEY GET PRIOR APROVAL FROM HSU RESEARCH. POSTS THAT DO NOT COMPLY WILL GET DELETED FROM NOW ON.Please bring these discussions to Google Groups or a well moderated Internet Forum.