Continuation of Rick Hilst Thread - Pg 5 (Placement of subwoofer)

[Michael Bain]

In his last thread, Rick was asking about placement ideas and options for his room. There were some good responses (at least before the thread was rudely interrupted). I am attaching his room layout to this post, and hopefully more people can give thoughts about placement in this room.*

*PS, please keep flames and person attacks in the private messages, thank you! :D

[Michael Bain]

Rick Hilst wrote:

I've attached a JPEG image of the floor plan for my great room. Included in this floor plan are two chairs/ottomans, a sofa, a TV and an entertainment center. Also included are potential locations for a TN1220HO or VTF-3.

I filled out the positioner form on the first page of this web site and Dr. Hsu recommended one of the two corners (with circles numbered 2 and 3).

The numbered circles 1-3 are the three possible locations for the TN1220HO. The rectangles numbered 4-5 are the two possible locations for the VTF-3.

The following are the advantages (A) and disadvantages (D) of the various positions.

1 (A) Hides the TN out of sight from the right side of the room. (D) Unknown whether acoustics will be good in this position. (D) Possible vibration problem w/ entertainment center

2 (A) Corner recommended by Dr Hsu. (A) Equi-distant from each of the listening spots. (D) Not hidden

3 (A) Corner recommended by DR Hsu. (A/D) Closer to seating positions (D) Not hidden - but partially obstructed by chair

4 (A) Hidden from sight from most room angles (A) Could serve as an end table (A/D) Close to seating position (D) May block vent (D) Not in a corner

5 (A) Good location for an end table (A/D) Close to seating position (D) Not in a corner (D) Visible from several angles

Being visible is a disadvantage for the VTF since neither rosewood nor black goes well with the room's decor.

I need to decide between the TN and VTF subs. I'm fighting WAF on this one so being visible is not good, particularly for the 51" tall TN.

What are your recommendations? Is it obvious to anyone which sub/position would work best? Is there one I've overlooked?

[Michael Bain]

Michael Bain wrote:

Let's break things down by subwoofer (keeping in mind that Wife Acceptance Factor is important, particularly keeping the subwoofer out of view as much as possible).

TN1220HO:

--Position #3 would be very good because you would get the full effect of corner loading, and the sub would be behind the audiences viewing angle while watching the television. You could even place the sub on it's side (North to South on your diagram) so that it is essentially out of view on the vertical plane.

VTF-3:

--Position #3 again could work well, and you would get the full effect of corner loading. If you orient this sub on the vertical plane (so that it is facing North to South on your diagram), it would not block the door to the deck. Just keep in mind that you should leave a few inches in the back of this sub so that air from the ports can flow freely.

--Position #5 would be good because the subwoofer could be used as an end table, and because of the nearfield listening effect. Placing the subwoofer near the main listening position can often lead to heightened impact in the sound. However, you would not get the benefits of corner loading to maximize sound pressure levels throughout the room.

While you should certainly experiment with all of these positions in your room, I think you would do quite well with either the TN1220HO or VTF-3 in Position #3. Some of the main advantages of this position include positive effects of corner-loading, in addition to keeping the subwoofer behind the listeners.

I think you would be very wise to wait until the VTF-3 is back in stock (supposedly sometime in November), and see what upgrades Hsu has in store for us.

By the way, at the top left and right hand corners of this picture, how many inches do you have from the corner to each respective deck door? Also, what program did you use to draw that diagram? It looks good!

[Michael Bain]

Rick Hilst wrote:

quote:
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how many inches do you have from the corner to each respective deck door?
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The problem with the corner isn't blocking the door. It's that there's an air vent in the corner (actually both corners). To avoid blocking the vent I would have to position the sub a little ways from the side wall (the one with the fireplace).

quote:
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what program did you use to draw that diagram?
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At furniturelandsouth.com (we bought some furniture there) they have a program for laying out a room. I set up a room to match our great room and took a screen shot of that room and pasted it into Paint to make some final edits.

I originally made some modifications to get some help from av123 (the numbered arrows correspond to some digital photos I took and sent to them). BTW, it looked a lot better before I started dinking with it in Paint.

It takes a little patience to use the room layout tool (rotating furniture is a pain). The user interface isn't too great but if you stick with it you can create a decent looking picture (I shouldn't complain since it's free

[Michael Bain]

Michael Bain wrote:

With air vents in each corner of your room, it seems that position #3 would work well for you if you orient the subwoofer north to south on your diagram. You should leave a few inches for the subwoofer port(s) to fire anyway.

Now that I look more closely at your diagram, it certainly does look like it was edited with MS Paint (the arrows, erase marks, etc). Great stuff!

[Michael Bain]

DavidD wrote:

How about a TN1220 on its side behind the chairs? You certainly wouldn't be able to see it while you're sitting there, but it would be visible from other vantage points.

[Michael Bain]

Rick Hilst wrote:

I read somewhere that, while you can lay the cylindrical subs flat, the sound quality suffers (plus I wonder whether there are other adverse effects).

Does Hsu recommend laying the TN1220 on its side?

It's such a tall sub (51") it seems that you would need a long piece of furniture (love seat or sofa) to do this. I don't think the space between the two chairs would work.

[Michael Bain]

DavidD wrote:

You're right, the 1220 is pretty long. I didn't pay much attention to the scale. I should probably let the Hsu folks speak for themselves regarding laying it on its side, but....based upon previous things I've read, I don't believe they have a problem with that at all. I've had a 1225 (smaller, but no longer sold) on its side in my house for several years.

[Michael Bain]

Michael Bain wrote:

There is no inherent problem in laying the TN1220HO on it's side, and you lower the center of gravity at the same time. If you put it North to South in position #3, it would be like a front firing long subwoofer with a rear firing port (in normal configuration, TN subwoofers have an upward firing driver, and downward firing port). Just make sure to leave a few inches of space in between the port and the wall. The main reason to leave the TN1220HO upright in it's normal configuration is because use of floorspace is minimized, and some of the port flow is absorbed by the surface below.

[Michael Bain]

Ddavidson wrote:

A fair amount of people seem to have their TN series horizontal. Dr Hsu has promoted this as a viable option for its TN s positioning. But remember especially with the very long 1220 the low bass comes from the port, while the upper bass is mostly produced by the driver so it pays to take this into account when listening.

Because positioning it 180 degrees will change the way it reacts with your room acoustics at your sweet spot (listening chair). Its all about the best location when trying to balance the best from a subwoofer and a rooms accoustics. Many people have very bad rooms (accoustically) that will simply never sound good no matter how good the equipment they buy.



Ddavidson

[Michael Bain]

Paul Carleton wrote:

(Just kidding!!! I'm trying to become a senior member in post count, as you can see) :D

[Lwang]

A TN sub lying horizontal behind position 5 would be hide it completely out of the way. If you insist on utilizing room resonance to increase the bass, it would still be there for the modes room-length wise. You might even be able to roll it right to behind the 2 chairs for a more near-field effect.

Position 3 would be good for a VTF sub, but there would be sound imbalance for anyone sitting on the 5 seater sofa.

As far as issues with lying the sub on its side, there is no negative impact with Hsu's cylindrical subs. You can see it here, where I have placed it behind my equipment rack (it is there because that is the most optimal position). This worked for me because it allowed the ultra low freq produced by the port to be at a different horizontal postion than the woofer, which produces sound a few octaves higher.

[Lwang]

And it is barely visible from the front:

[Sasha_G]

Thanks Michael for revitalizing some of the unfinished business from that thread.

Dr. Hsu is not in the office, but I'll draw his attention to this.

Behind the couch is one of his favorite places, and is considered a prime spot. I didn't see a number for that on the map, but there should be.

[Michael Bain]

As far as issues with lying the sub on its side, there is negative impact with Hsu's cylindrical subs. You can see it here, where I have placed it behind my equipment rack (it is there because that is the most optimal position).

You meant to say there is "NO" negative impact with Hsu cylinder subs on their side, correct?

[Lwang]

Originally posted by Michael Bain
As far as issues with lying the sub on its side, there is negative impact with Hsu's cylindrical subs. You can see it here, where I have placed it behind my equipment rack (it is there because that is the most optimal position).

You meant to say there is "NO" negative impact with Hsu cylinder subs on their side, correct?

You are right, I correct the original post in addition to making some additions to my comment.

[Michael Bain]

Perdon?

[Dr_Hsu]

Laying a TN1220HO North South with the port facing position 3 and the woofer end behind North chair would be great. The listener in that chair will be in the near field of the woofer (tight, punchy upper bass) while the low bass is corner loaded. The sub is also less visible.

The 1220HO is best used laid on its side. No floor bounce cancellation. Stand it up only if you don't have the floor space.

[Lwang]

The 1220HO is best used laid on its side. No floor bounce cancellation. Stand it up only if you don't have the floor space.

Then you should start making some stand/bracket for single/dual subwoofer placement. This would allow people to know that a sideway placement is a viable option instead of some homemade hack (on par with placing one's receiver sideways).

BTW, I meant position 5 for the VTF-3 for nearfield placement.