Music versus Home Theater, distinction

[Michael Bain]

I have always found it very interesting that some subwoofers get a reputation for doing either Music or Home Theater movies well. However, let us think more clearly about the situation.

If a company (like Hsu Research) designs a subwoofer that is very accurate and musical sounding and that has the ability to play very clean and loud with very low distortion, then it should be equally at home with music and Home Theater! I think this is the reason why Hsu products excel and are praised for music and HT applications.

With movie soundtracks, bass required for music is played just as often if not more often than the usual wham-bam explosion scenes. Actually, a super loud explosion scene is artificial in it's very nature, and these type of scenes occur very infrequently in most movies.

Some music source material is also the most difficult for subwoofer to reproduce. For instance, the prime obvious example is pipe organ music soundtracks, which have extremely low and deep notes (in contrast to many of the explosions in HT soundtracks which are primarily concentrated above >25Hz).

Any other thoughts on this subject are very welcomed and appreciated. Thank you!

[Sorny]

You bring up an issue that bothers me. I've got dual TN1220HO subs, and they are fantastic for movies as well as music. I think people get bad impressions of subwoofers for music because most people don't have adequate subwoofers, or have them placed poorly, or improperly calibrated.

My TN subs are there for 1 reason. They sound good. Be it movies or music, they still sound good. The trick is to get them to blend with the other speakers, and I feel many people just plop the sub down and go. When properly calibrated/set up, you won't even notice the subwoofer is on when playing music, but when you turn them off, the music will lose "something". Movies, obviously, are easy to tell when the sub is off.

Sorny

[cschang]

yeah....who can tell during a movie if an explosion is distorted or not? What is an "accurate" explosion? :D

[Sasha_G]

I think the distinction came from bad sounding subs that go loud but just didn't sound good for music. They were called "home theater subs."

Some music source material is also the most difficult for subwoofer to reproduce.

That's true. The more detailed and deep the music is, the harder it is to reproduce. From my research, most music doesn't get extremely deep. The majority of todays music doesn't have significant amounts of bass below 30- 40 Hz.

Thankfully, that means most program material is a little easier for the subwoofer to reproduce.

When you do hear bass below 30 Hz, it is very striking. One can refer to that study I posted on the forum of infra-sonic bass in the church, where people would feel shivers up and down their spine and have other emotional reactions. Those are the notes some music buffs die for (like Dr. Hsu). Organ music is one example.

Actually, a super loud explosion scene is artificial in it's very nature, and these type of scenes occur very infrequently in most movies.

While it is true that most movies don't have that many explosions, some folks die for dramatic ones and want each one to count. They want that "big" sound. What's good in these situations is lots of impact and chest thumping. The LFE track, also known as the .1 or "boom track", adds the element of tactile sensation to the auditory and visual senses.

Putting the subwoofer very close to the listener delivers more of this.

My TN subs are there for 1 reason. They sound good
The "secret recipe" of isn't just loudness, or deep bass. It's not just low distortion and punchiness. Its all of those things that come together to make a good sounding subwoofer. A balanced design will excel in both home theater applications and music applications.

[Ddavidson]

It is what attracted me to try and ultimately buy a Hsu subwoofer. This so called musicability of Hsu subwoofers is really just because of the excellent ground work done in the design of the subwoofer (superior design work).

Anyone can put a driver and amp in a box, but getting it to sound good is very different from just selling and marketing a subwoofer. The growing preconceived notion on some forums that the ability to play back super loud is very important (in a home space) is totally false. The simple truth is the majority of people do not playback at those ludicrous levels.

The reason why music is harder for a bad subwoofer, is that we can easier tell that things are incorrect in music reproduction. Its mainly because most people have a decent reference to their favorite music. Not many of us know how it would sound if the world blew up.

Having a reference for music means we can judge a little easier as to how accurate it sounds. After all Tom-Toms should not sound like a Bass drum.
The trick is to get them to blend with the other speakers, and I feel many people just plop the sub down and go.
Absolutely that is the whole aim.
If it (the subwoofer) sticks out, the whole illusion you are trying to create is ruined.
Not many people really know how to position a sub. Even a great sub can sound terrible if positioned in the wrong place in a room. The other issue is the room itself as many rooms sound like you have the system set up down the bottom of the Grand Canyon.

Most people do not get to choose their listening room, and no matter how good the equipment you purchace, a bad room will make even the best equipment sound bad.


Ddavidson

[Lwang]

If it (the subwoofer) sticks out, the whole illusion you are trying to create is ruined.

How true but in reality, people seem to want the opposite. Most people want to hear the subwoofer, or else they feel they have wasted their money.

I use to, on my magnepans play music tracks in which people are asking if the subwoofer is on. Only when it is turned off, do they realize that there is something missing.


You also have to note, Hsu went with the cylindrical subwoofer design, not because it is easy to prefabricate out of concrete forming sleeves, but because of its sound quality. DIY guys use it for the sole purpose of ease of assembly. They could care less about the inert accoustic properties of the cylinder.

[Sasha_G]

Most people want to hear the subwoofer, or else they feel they have wasted their money.

Some people just plop in the subwoofer and turn it way up. Then, they can be reminded about the bass. When I first bought a subwoofer, I too did this. No matter how much experienced listeners urged me to turn it down, I turned it way up. After about a month, I got bored of the boominess. I decided to turn it down so it would integrate, and then... REALISM. Suddenly, I could hear what an acoustic bass or acoustic kick drum sounds like, instead of the big bloated boom. There was so much texture and subtleness, that I can no longer turn it up without having to quickly turn it down the next song.

At first, I placed the subwoofer near the receiver and only purchased a 6 foot interconnect. Now, I've learned the value of placing the subwoofer close to the listening seats, preferably behind the listeners. You can get a lot of seat shaking and impact. You can then turn the subwoofer DOWN relative to the rest of the system and not worry as much about distrubing neighbors. It still sounds as loud when you are sitting there.

You can't place the sub near the listening seats will just any sub. Distortion, suspension noise, port noise, bottoming, and cabinet resonances occur at HIGHER frequencies than 80 Hz, increasing the minds ability to locate where a subwoofer is playing. That is one reason why we have downfiring orientation of the woofer, so that a sub can fire down onto a carpet/throw rug and any rare out of frequency noises from the driver like suspension noise can be absorbed by the carpet, and the non-localizable characteristics can be strengthened. When we do demonstrations (like at the upcomign CES), time after time, people cannot tell which subwoofer is playing.

[Michael Bain]

Well it really helps to have Dr. Hsu setting up things in room at the trade shows. He could set up a sub to sound great in almost any room. Placement of product is one of the little talked about functions involved in sub performance, and this is one area where his expertise really does wonders for the products and gives him a competitive edge in my very humble opinion.

You forgot to mention that upward firing driver tends to work at least as well as down firing, because port flow disturbances have a greater tendency to be masked. There are fine sounding examples of front firing, upward firing, and downfiring. The most important thing by far is design. At the same time, many of those who make subwoofers do not really have a good understanding of what characteristics in sound change as orientation of the driver changes. It is good to know that you guys do have a solid understanding.

[Sasha_G]

Michael,

It is good to know that you guys do have a solid understanding.

Thanks for the complement. Dr. Hsu really knows volumes more than I. He has a lot of first hand experience experimenting with unusual designs--and trust me, some of his designs have been unusual.

I wanted to add that even in Home theater, high SPL does not always mean "superior". SPL tell just part of the story when a speaker turns movement into sound.

[Michael Bain]

The term "high SPL" is also rather meaningless without knowing what frequency and with what distortion this SPL number was achieved at. There is many on the internet who does not ever bother to contemplate or consider this in their analysis. And if the user never listens very loud, then maximum SPL becomes even more meaningless.

[Ddavidson]

Only when it is turned off, do they realize that there is something missing.
That is how I have convinced people of the benefits of a Hsu subwoofer and its proper positioning. All the boom and bang special effect WOW factor gets very sickening after a very short period. It is also why so many of my friends have said they prefer to switch off their subwoofer (especially with lots of music). A boomy subwoofer and bad positioning makes the music/song very tiresome.

Sasha brings up a very good point about port noise as its one area where a lot of subwoofers fall down especially when positioning a subwoofer close to the listening seat. All the Hsu subwoofers I have heard are excellent in this area especially when compared to other subwoofers.
DIY guys use it for the sole purpose of ease of assembly. They could care less about the inert accoustic properties of the cylinder.
You have to laugh at how much influence Hsu has had on these DIY guys and you have to wonder how many of the less craftsmen like would have been better off to just buy a Hsu. Sonotube is relatively cheap and easy as an enclosure. Cheap is the one thing that is a main driver for many to get into DIY (DIY = perceived cost savings). Trouble is I have heard several DIY subs and most cheapies sound just like that - CHEAP. The best ones are normally built by the guys that that have built mutiple versions. Learning from past mistakes which makes the end subwoofer not quite so cheap.
Some people just plop in the subwoofer and turn it way up. Then, they can be reminded about the bass. When I first bought a subwoofer, I too did this. No matter how much experienced listeners urged me to turn it down, I turned it way up. After about a month, I got bored of the boominess.
Hearing you say this is just like Deja-Vu. Talk about bringing back memories of days gone by and lessons learnt. Thankfully not long after putting up with several boomy subwoofers I discovered Hsu and got away from all those very bad dealer showrooms that sell drivers in a box (subwoofers) at very silly mark-ups.

Ddavidson

[cschang]

I just saw this post on AVS.

I think he stated it very well.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?postid=2919311#post2919311

[rhehd]

Originally posted by Sasha_G
At first, I placed the subwoofer near the receiver and only purchased a 6 foot interconnect. Now, I've learned the value of placing the subwoofer close to the listening seats, preferably behind the listeners. You can get a lot of seat shaking and impact. You can then turn the subwoofer DOWN relative to the rest of the system and not worry as much about distrubing neighbors. It still sounds as loud when you are sitting there.
I have the choice of putting the sub behind the mains, about 14' away from the couch, or to the direct right of the couch under a coffee table. I was under the impression that the sub should be placed behind the mains for the best accuracy. Care to elaborate on this?

[Lwang]

Originally posted by rhehd
I have the choice of putting the sub behind the mains, about 14' away from the couch, or to the direct right of the couch under a coffee table. I was under the impression that the sub should be placed behind the mains for the best accuracy. Care to elaborate on this?

Since the most important aspect to the sound quality of bass is very dependent on its interaction with the room, along with the fact that the perception of bass is fairly non-directional. It would be advantageous for one to place the subwoofer in a location so that its interaction with the room will result in the smoothest response at the listening position.

The near-field placement will increase the direct sound of the sub in relation to the reflected sound, thereby minimizing room interaction and allow the listener to hear the direct impact of the subwoofer as opposed to the room resonance.