1 MBM-12+1 VTF-3 vs 2 VTF's

[skykeys]

Hello everyone,

I have read many good reviews and comments about HSU subs, so I am seriously considering them for a recently remodeled basement project.

Something I am not familiar with, but am curious about, is the mid base unit, MBM-12. I'm looking for info about what the advantages and disadvantages of using it with a sub, versus using two subs.

My room size is roughly 23x19x7. A staircase and a box-out for an oil tank make it not a perfect rectangle. Vinyl flooring with a couple of throw rugs. I am going with a 5.2 set up. I initially thought two subs would be appropriate for the room size, but then I saw the MBM-12 and I'm wondering if it can take the place of a 2nd VTF sub, enhancing the base in a different way?

One question I have is, if I were to use the MBM-12, would I be able to use the variable cross-over settings in my receiver, which will have two sub out connections? I believe the cross-over setting in the receiver will apply to both outputs. Would the MBM-12 need a different cross-over point?

I'd appreciate everyone's thoughts on this matter. If anyone has the MBM-12, I'd love to hear your input. . . . Umm, and no, I can not do two VTFs and an MBM-12. :)

Thank you.

[skykeys]

No replies yet? Still hoping to get some help here.

So in case anyone replies, here is an additional detail on my envisioned setup. The two VTF-2's (or 1 VTF-3 + 1 MBM-12) will be on opposite sides of the room. I've already ran the cables to accomodate the only two places I can place these boxes. One in front right (with the front speakers) and one on the side left - under the staircase.

If I use an MBM-12 and a VTF-3, would it be better to place the MBM in the front or on the side?

I'll appreciate your help.

Thank you.

[kinggimp]

From what I understand the mbm should ideally be placed close to your listening position. Midbass is best produced close to the listener where deep is best produced in a front corner near your front speakers. Also from what I have read when using a mbm and a vtf subwoofer you get excellent midbass and deep bass is produced easier from the vtf and with more headroom. This is due to the fact that the vtf is relieved of having to produce the midbass because the mbm does the job. I hope my little bit of information is of help to you.

[Pete_Hsu]

Hi skykeys, welcome to the forum!

May I ask how far is the listening position is to the front right location and rear left location?

Does your room open to any large areas of the house?

Does your receiver let you set distance settings independently for each sub out?

Based on the basic info provided so far, I would probably go with two VTF subwoofers. Since you can only place units at opposite corners of the room, then I feel that you will be better off using the true subwoofers there. The mid-bass module is usually best utilized away from the corners.

Sincerely,

[skykeys]

Hello Pete, thank you for responding. I initially missed your response, so I apologize for taking a while to get back to you.

To answer your questions:
May I ask how far is the listening position is to the front right location and rear left location? Listeing positions will be on a sofa situated slightly closer to the front than the rear, but roughly in the middle of the 23 ft. length (front to rear) of the room. So approximately 10 to 12 feet to the front right and about 12 - 14 feet to rear left (depending on where along the sofa one will sit).

Does your room open to any large areas of the house? No. The room is basement with walls in all directions from the measurements I mentioned previously.

Does your receiver let you set distance settings independently for each sub out? Honestly, I'm not sure because I haven't purchased the receiver yet. But I don't think either of the receivers I'm leaning toward will allow seperate settings for each sub out. I am looking at getting either an Integra DTR-20.1 or a Yamaha HTR-6260. They are 5.2 and 7.2 receivers, but I doubt either one of those will allow separate tunings for each sub out. If you have a recommendation for a receiver that would handle separate settings for each sub out - please let me know. Of course, it will have to fit in my budget. :)

Based on the basic info provided so far, I would probably go with two VTF subwoofers. Since you can only place units at opposite corners of the room, then I feel that you will be better off using the true subwoofers there. The mid-bass module is usually best utilized away from the corners. Well, the locations are not quite opposite corners. The one spot is underneath the staircase, which is in the middle left, while the other spot is front right - in the corner. But because there is a box out for an oil tank, there are kind of two corners along that side of the room. It would be situated along the front wall (as opposed to the side wall). So the middle left location under the stair case will be very close to the left side of the sofa that is situated roughly in the center of the room.

Does that information change your prospective at all? I appreciate your help. The room is just about finished and I need to get my speakers and receiver in place shortly.

Thank you.

[Pete_Hsu]

Thanks for the info skykeys! For simplicity's sake, I would go with two 12" VTF subs. Having just one MBM placed on the middle left wall may not be an ideal placement for multiple seats, so the two VTF subs may work better.

Yeah, I think that those two receivers send the same output signal for each subwoofer pre-out. I've heard that some of the new higher end Onkyo receivers let one adjust distance and channel level individually for two different subs, but I'm not sure about the model numbers.

Sincerely,

[skykeys]

Thank you for getting back to me Pete. I'm going to order one VTF-3 to start, and likely get another as my budget allows. :)

So, just a general question for you. What kind of application is the MBM-12 suited for? Is it in effect, just a smaller sub-woofer? (I've read your write-up on it, but it's not clear enough to me how the mid-base unit differs from a larger sub, and how/where it should be used, particularly given your recommendation to me - to not use it.)

Thank you again for your help.

[Pete_Hsu]

You are most welcome skykeys!

The MBM is intended for use in 2-way subwoofer systems where the MBM handles the mid-bass frequencies (say, ~ 50-80Hz), and the true subwoofer handles the low bass frequencies (say, ~ 16-50Hz).

In my opinion, the MBM can enhance virtually any subwoofer system. It's just a question of what one's priorities are, how much flexibility one has in their budget, and how much flexibility one has to place the MBM in room.

Sincerely,

[skykeys]

So in my first case, the basement, there isn't an optimal physical location for it? And is that why you recommended me using two VTF's instead? (I did order the VTF-3 today by the way).

Let me know if another situation I have is a better fit for the MBM-12. I have another room (family room) that already has two subs in a 5.2 surround setup. One of the subs, an older Paradigm PDR-10, is going to have to leave for use in a friend's house. The primary sub is a Polk DSW-500. This room is 11x20x8. It does open up to the kitchen. The two subs currently are in the front, on either side of the entertainment center which sits along the 20 ' wall, speakers are in-wall. The distance from the couch to the subs is roughly 8 feet. So the narrow 11 ' width of the room is the front / rear. I'm contemplating replacing the PDR-10. Would this room situation be better suited for an MBM-12? The only location I can put it is where the PDR-10 is now, in the front - on the side of the entertainment center; either side - as I could change positions with the Polk.

Thanks again.

[Pete_Hsu]

Yeah, that is correct skykeys. The MBM could certainly enhance your system, but I think you are better off focusing on one VTF for now and adding another one down the road.

May I ask where is the opening to the kitchen located relative to the listening position in your secondary family room system?

Thanks

[skykeys]

Pete,

The opening to the kitchen is on the right side of the listening position, along the 11 ' width of the room. It is a typical family room flowing right into the kitchen area open plan that I think is a pretty common architecture. FYI - the other side of the family room has a stone fireplace along the 11 ' width.

Thanks again.

Skykeys

[Pete_Hsu]

Hi skykeys,

In the family room, are you sitting close to the left side and/or back walls? What practical placement options do you have in that room for mid-bass and deep bass subs?

Thanks

[skykeys]

Pete, I really appreciate your taking the time to figure this out. You care about making sure your customers do the right thing.

To answer your latest question: placement options are very limited. The listening position is the sofa along the back wall, squarely facing the TV and entertainment center, roughly 10 feet away. The total distance between the front wall and back wall is 11 ' 4 " (wall to wall measurement). Within that distance is the sofa along the back wall and entertainment center along the front wall. The speakers are mounted in-wall in the front, and in-ceiling in the back; since there is no room behind the listening postion, the rear ceiling speakers are basically directly above your head. It's the best I could do in this room.

So, the placement positions for the sub-woofers are limited to either side of the entertainment cabinet along the front wall. That roughly equates to the either side of the sofa in terms of alignment to the listening position - 8 to 10 feet away. As you face the TV - stting on the sofa, the open wall to the kitchen is on your right. To the left (at the end of the 20 ' room) is a stone fireplace. The sofa and entertainment center area is aligned to the right of the center of the family room, so it is not dead center along the 20 ' length. That puts the listening positions closer to the open kitchen, especially the right side of the sofa, and farther from the fireplace. The left side of the sofa is almost in the center. I hope my textual discription is adequate. :)

Thank you for your help.

[kinggimp]

Pete, I really appreciate your taking the time to figure this out. You care about making sure your customers do the right thing.

To answer your latest question: placement options are very limited. The listening position is the sofa along the back wall, squarely facing the TV and entertainment center, roughly 10 feet away. The total distance between the front wall and back wall is 11 ' 4 " (wall to wall measurement). Within that distance is the sofa along the back wall and entertainment center along the front wall. The speakers are mounted in-wall in the front, and in-ceiling in the back; since there is no room behind the listening postion, the rear ceiling speakers are basically directly above your head. It's the best I could do in this room.

So, the placement positions for the sub-woofers are limited to either side of the entertainment cabinet along the front wall. That roughly equates to the either side of the sofa in terms of alignment to the listening position - 8 to 10 feet away. As you face the TV - stting on the sofa, the open wall to the kitchen is on your right. To the left (at the end of the 20 ' room) is a stone fireplace. The sofa and entertainment center area is aligned to the right of the center of the family room, so it is not dead center along the 20 ' length. That puts the listening positions closer to the open kitchen, especially the right side of the sofa, and farther from the fireplace. The left side of the sofa is almost in the center. I hope my textual discription is adequate. :)

Thank you for your help.Can you post pictures?

[Pete_Hsu]

Hi skykeys,

Since you do not have any nearfield placement options in that second room, I would stick to two identical true subwoofers.

Thanks for the kind words, my pleasure to help at any time!

Sincerely,

[skykeys]

Pete, if you don't mind, can you to define for me precisely what you mean by "nearfield"?

It seems to me, based on how I'm interrpreting your recommendations, that the MBM-12 has somewhat limited flexibility in how it's (optimally) used in a system.

I appreciate your candor.

Thanks.

[Pete_Hsu]

Hi skykeys,

When I say nearfield, I mean placed next to or close to the listening position.

The MBM is actually very versatile. With a single MBM, one can place the unit in the nearfield, or next to the true subwoofer. With two MBM, one can place the units in the nearfield (either sideways behind the couch, or as endtables on each side of the couch), or next to the true subwoofers, or flanking the left/right mains.

In your case, due to your limited nearfield placement options in both rooms, I recommend starting with dual VTF first. Then, sometime down the road, if you want to take the system to the next level, add dual MBM and place them next to each VTF subwoofers.

Sincerely,

[skykeys]

Thank you Pete for your very quick and informative reply. :)

So, if I eventually do get an MBM-12, how does it get wired up?

For example, would I run the sub out line from the receiver and go into the MBM-12 first, and then run a line from the MBM-12 into a VTF? Does the MBM-12 have a cross-over in it, or would it send a full signal into the VTF in this example?

Or, does the MBM require a separate sub-out line from the receiver?

Thanks again.

[Pete_Hsu]

You should split the signal at the subwoofer pre-out on the receiver, and then feed one low level input on the MBM and one low level input on the true subwoofer. The MBM will roll off naturally below 50Hz (combination of acoustic + electrical rolloff). The true subwoofer internal crossover should be engaged (ie. set to 'In'), and the crossover knob should be set to ~50Hz so that frequencies above 50Hz are rolled off on the true subwoofer.

Sincerely,

[skykeys]

Great. Thank you much Pete. Just wanted to say, I really appreciate your help and honest recommendations.

My VTF-3 should arrive today. Looking forward to hearing an HSU sub for the first time. :)

By the way, this is the first time I've purchased a speaker of any kind without listening to it first. Your sub-woofer's reputation, based on reading various reviews and blogs, is what led me to do this, along with your honest responses. You could have sold me an MBM-12, but you steered me in the direction you thought was best for my situation. Integrity means a lot to me.

I will eventually add another VTF (assuming I'm not disappointed), and then hopefully in the not too distant future, add an MBM-12.

We can close out this thread. If I have any questions about setting up the VTF-3, I'll start another thread.

Regards,
Skykeys

[Pete_Hsu]

Thank you for the vote of confindence and all the kind words Skykeys, I am flattered :o Looking forward to first impressions!

Sincerely,