Sub Question - Plz Don't Kill Me :)

[cboyd1]

Hi All,

I'm somewhat of a newbie when it comes to home audio. I have a very modest home theater, and I am now getting ready to start slowly building to wards more of a mid to high end system. My first purchase will be a subwoofer. I use my system almost 99% of the time for DVD movies only, very rarely do I listen to music. I must admit I like alot of bass in my movies, I really like to be hit hard :). I purchased a little Yamaha 8" 120 Watt downfiring subwoofer from best buy and was very disappointed, its been returned. I've decided to go ahead and shell out more cash, no more than $500 for a subwoofer that I plan to keep for quite awhile. I have narrowed down my search to two models right now, one being the

HSU VTF-2 or STF-2 the other is the

Definative ProSub 100TL

The HSU has higher reviews, but the frequency is abit lower on the ProSub. Can some of you folks with alot more experience explain to me the differences between the two? Provide any comment. I hope no one is mad that I mentioned any competition :)

Thanks in adavance,

Charlie

[diad98]

You can buy Definative ProSub 100TL for local stores like magnolia Hi-Fi and try it at home for free up to 2 weeks.

I did it 18 months ago and compared it to polk psw-350 with 100w rms /-3db@38hz.

After I swept the sine wave down to 20hz w/ max volumn, it ended up i kept polk and returned DT.

For my room, polk is understated and DT is way over stated.

For normal listen volumn DT does have more punch but not too much and the sub sound is too localized for the same location comparision.

My suggestion is you should many better choices than DT prosub 100.

[Sasha_G]

but the frequency is abit lower on the ProSub
Keep in mind that our frequency response measurements are more conservative than most. There still is some usable bass below 25 Hz, it just isn't as loud as the other frequencies.

[cboyd1]

Well, for anyone reading this thread, I did a little experiment yesterday and all last night. Keep in mind I'm no super duper audiophile, but here is what I did.

I went and purchased the following

Sony 12" 150-Watt Powered Subwoofer - Model: SAWM500 - $199.99

HSU STF-2 - $349.99

Definative ProSub 100TL - $404.99

Now before I go on, check this out. I was scouring the forum here, and I saw someone mention that CompUSA sells HSU subs in limited quantities. Well I did a local search in the Dallas Texas area where I live and actually found some, and for $349.99 at that, 50 dollars cheaper than the website :). So I drove out and picked one up.

Now you may be saying, why the hell did this guy buy THREE subwoofers. Well, I'm doing something I really don't approve of, but I am having a hell of a time shopping for a subwoofer. They sound nothing at home like they do at the store display, you simply can't get a good feel at a store. BestBuy and UltimateElectonics (where I got the Sony and DefTech have 30 day return policy) CompUSA has a 15 day with 15% restocking fee return policy (more on that later, ugh).

So I got home yesterday about 3pm with all 3 subs and began my testing, I've made some categories to divide up my comments.

FIT and FINISH
-------------------
The Sony has a decent finish, but all in all seems alittle cheesy. The driver seems abit flimsy, paper cone with no good coating.

The Definative was a nice solid sub, it was significantly smaller in size versus the other two, and once again has your typical black laquer woodgrain exterior. The speaker itself is made of a polymer instead of a paper base, it seems alot more durable, and I think that is one of DT's selling points.

The HSU had the overall best fit and finish. The knobs and stands on the back, just the overall feel seemed to have the highest quality, and it is definately the most handsome looking of the 3. With the down firing setup and the smooth plastic coating with rounded edges, it just looks the best.

Controls and Tuning
--------------------------

This is an odd category but thought I'd briefly touch it.

The sony has your typical volume and high cut knobs, plus a norm/rev mode

The Definative merely has volume and high cut knobs, no reverse

The HSU has a few nice options, volume and high cut knobs, forward and reverse settings, and an interesting crossover setting that was worth playing with.

Overall Performance (of course this is my cheesy opinion)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

I did my testing with DVD movies in Dolby 5.1 mode. My setup is as follows. (please dont' laugh, I know its nothing special)

A Kenwood Receiver, puts out 100 watts per channel (basically a 400 dollar Kenwood Receiver from Summer 2000)

Up front Two Cerwin Vega Floor speakers up front, the top of the line model that has a 12" sub, 6" mid and tweet, purchased in 1997 for about $600 for the pair, they are still in really nice shape.

Sony 150 watt center channel, two 5.25" mids and one 1" tweet.

In the rear, two Sony bookshelf speakers, 150 watt, 5.5" mid and 1" tweet.

I dialed the subwoofers into the following config (approximately)

I set the high cut to ~65Hz
I set the volume to 50% (some tests done with volume set to ~70%)
I set the receiver to a nice semi-loud setting, typically the volume I watch a good action movie.

Let me preface the test with this also. I use my system for movies only, I rarely listen to music at home. Also, I'm really into booming bass, I like to be shaken abit in a loud movie should I be in the mood and want to turn it up, I like having that option (I know its not for everyone).

My roomie and I did the following tests

Test 1 - Matrix Reloaded

I picked 3 scenes. Two fighting scenes with good music and nice bass hits from the fighting. We also used the trailer for Matrix Revolutions at the end of the flick. My roomie blindfolded himself and I played each of the three scenes on each sub, and he made his picks.

The HSU won 2 out of 3 times, it seemed to have the most full sound, but in all honesty they were all so very close. You could tell that the Sony wasn't as "tight" but if you were on tight budget, you can't go wrong with the Sony if you want some booming bass.

We did similar blindfolded tests with Hackers (I know silly movie but has alot of deep bass music for testing), Gone In 60 Seconds, Gladiator, and ONE MORE MOVIE.....here is where things went wrong...

At this point I was sold on the HSU, I liked its fit and finish the most, it was $50 bucks cheaper than the Definative, and it seemed to barely edge out the Definative with a slightly more "full" sound (maybe because of the downward firing).

Now back to that last movie. Our last test was with Titan A.E. the final scene where the Titan (the ship) forms the planet. This scene has alot of very deep extended bass, meaning instead of quick hits, it does more of a roar, long extended bass tone. This time I was the one blindfolded. The HSU really fluttered under this scene, it didn't sound too hot. Now when I say fluttered I mean the sound a sub starts to make when its getting too much juice, like you have the volume turned up too high. This disturbed me because this was the one I thought I was going to keep. I checked the settings and I had it at ~65Hz and abit over half volume, I dropped it to exactly half volume and it still fluttered. I dropped it to about 40% and got rid of the flutter but at that point, it wasn't as deep and booming as I wanted, this sucked, since I liked the HSU the most at this point. I tested the other subs with this scene, from 50% up to ~70%, they all handled it fine. Hrm..what to do.

At this point I went and grabbed a test CD I have which has some bass test tracks, deep hitting bass songs, and some sine wave outputs that do the 20Hz to 20,000Hz range. I put on the bass track, a 3 minute deep hitting song. Holy smoke did the Definative come alive, it by far was the most powerful, I could crank it to near max and it stayed clear, the sony did a nice job too, mainly because of the 12" i think. The HSU simply couldn't handle the deep bass at the levels the Definative could. Read on for my conclusion.

Conclusion
--------------

Let me begin by saying all 3 subs were very good. The Sony for its price I think was very nice, but couldn't hang with the other two. All the way up until the end of my testing I preferred the HSU. And quite honestly I'd imagine that for the majority of people out there, the HSU is probably the best choice, I think it has abit (albeit slight) fuller sound versus the definative. When considering total all out power and booming (yet still crisp, when I say booming I'm not talking about washed out crappy sounding boom, I mean nice solid hits) the Definative takes the cake. Now I realize that 99% of the time, the HSU is gonna be just fine for me, but for those nights when I come home late with some friends, we've had a few beers and we just wanna watch something super loud and knock our socks off, I like to be able to do that, I know that isn't the norm, but I can't help my preference, I want to have that option, to go all out with my sub. The HSU simply couldn't handle what I threw at it (I'm sure the STF-3 could though). So at this point, I think I'm going to keep the Definative, but by all means the HSU is an amazing subwoofer. Now, folks, here is my problem...read on.

My Problem (heehee)
---------------------------

Okay, as I mentioned before I got the HSU for $349 and the Definative for $404. Problem is, I got the HSU at CompUSA who has a 15% restocking fee, so if/when I return it, I have to pay ~$50 dollars in a restocking fee, effectively making me pay $404 for $454 for the definative (OUCH). So here is what I'm going to try to do. I'm going to try to sell the HSU STF-2 for $350 plus shipping (buyer pays shipping of their choice). If I don't sell the HSU in time, I'm going to have to decide to either keep the HSU and return the Definative in order to save money, or return the HSU and eat the 50 bux (ouch). So, if you know anyone out there who wants an HSU STF-2 for 350 plus shipping (I still eat 28 bux on the tax I paid on it ) let me know. Its brand new, I've had it for less than 24 hours and I have all boxes booklets etc..

P.S.
------

HSU folks, if you have any suggestions that I can try to "tune" the HSU better let me know. I experimented with the crossover and norm/reverse like the manual suggests, no luck when playing my "Titan A.E." test.

Thanks guys, I realize my testing was not very "official" but I hope this post is interesting to some folks. I'd love to hear comments and questions.

Thanks,

Charlie

[Nigel_Pl]

Hey cboyd,

Just wanted to know how you calibrated the subwoofer volume in relation to the rest of the system. Did you use a home theater setup disk or the receivers pink noise to make sure the subwoofer levels were the same using a sound pressure level meter? Did you measure the SPL of your system with the forward and then the reverse phase setting to make sure the Hsu sub was in phase with the rest of your system? Were all the subs placed at the same position prior to each audition?

Without proper calibration and setup its close to impossible to evaluate the performance of each sub.