Receiver Crossover+Set-Fronts-to-Small Question!!

[Gemini]

A newbie question:

Why people always say to set the front speakers settings to small in the receiver?
If the receiver crossover freq is 100Hz, does that mean it will NOT send any signal below 100Hz to the front speakers, but instead to the subwoofer? Setting fronts to Small/Large will affect this?

I have Athena AS F-2 floor standing speakers that I think can go down to 50Hz(I think!! will check) and I set them to Small based on what I read. The receiver crossover is set to factory default 100Hz (Yamaha HTR-5660), and the crosover on the subwoofer knob is set to about 50Hz.
Does that mean any signal between 100Hz and 50Hz will be lost (not sent to the fronts, but also filtered by the sub)?

I am planning of getting the radioshark meter thing after I get my AVIA disc, but for now, what could be the best settings??

Please some technical details from the basics for a newbie like me will be helpful (Though I understand freq domain, Bode plots and filtering pretty well, but do not know how these audio equipment operate internally)....


Thanks in advance...

[Sorny]

When you use the crossover in your receiver (you enable it by setting speakers as "small"), you should turn the crossover dial on the subwoofer to the highest number it will go to, and if it has a switch, switch it to "out" (for HSU subs).

Crossovers are not brick walls. If the crossover is at 80Hz (example), then it is still sending the signal at 60Hz to the mains, just at a lesser level than what is going to the sub. The amount of attenuation in the signal above/below the crossover is determined by the slope of the crossover.

Long story short, 99% of all speakers should be set "small" in the receiver. There are very few speakers that can legitimately claim to be "large". Often, even if you have speakers that can do 115dB at 20Hz, it won't do it properly because the best bass response is NEVER the place for the best stereo imaging and mids/highs. A seperate sub placed in a proper location is superior to "large" speakers in almost every instance. :D

Sorny

[Nigel_Pl]

Hi Gemini,

Most of the Yamaha receivers allow bass from the centre and surround channels to be redirected to both the subwoofer and the main speakers. This would allow you to run your main speakers as LARGE. If you set the subwoofer crossover to around 65-70hz you should be alright. Your LARGE speakers will handle the upper bass and the subwoofer will take care of the lower bass. Experiment and see which setup you prefer.

[Gemini]

Originally posted by Nigel_Pl
If you set the subwoofer crossover to around 65-70hz you should be alright.

Good. But this means I must have he subwoofer switched to 'in' so the crossover can work.. right?

I have it now as 'OUT' on the ATF-2 sub, so I assume the sub corssover is totally out of the picture.
The Yamaha receiver is set to:
Main Speakers = Large (so I can get some bass from them).
BASS output = Both (so any signal below 100Hz goes to the both the subwoofer and the main speakers).

Is this normal setting for the subwoofer and the speakers? I know I must experiment, but just as an initial point, do people run their systems sometimes in this type of configuration?

Another question: I read here the analog SPL meter from RadioShack need to have corrections, but I cannot find any correction values listed anywhere. Can somebody please copy/paste thos correction value?

Thanks in advance..

[Gemini]

I guess I will answer my own second question:

Radio Shack SPL Meter Corrections
------------------------------------
10hz.....+20db
12.5hz...+16.5db
16hz.....+11.5db
20hz.....+7.5db
25hz.....+5db
31.5hz...+3db
40hz.....+2.5db
50hz.....+1.5db
63hz.....+1.5db
80hz.....+1.5db
100hz....+2db
125hz....+.5db
160hz....-.5db
200hz....-.5db
250hz....+.5db
315hz....-.5db
400hz....0db
500hz....-.5db
630hz....0db
800hz....0db
1k.......0db
1.25k....0db
1.6k.....-.5db
2k.......-1.5db
2.5k.....-1.5db
3.15k....-1.5db
4k.......-2db
5k.......-2db
6.3k.....-2db
8k.......-2db
10k......-1db
12.5k....+.5db
16k......0db
20k......+1db

THX Home Theater 16000 -8.5
20000 -11.2


found here: http://www.danmarx.org/audioinnovation/rsmeter.html
Is this correct?

Can somebody answer the first question I have above: Is it normal to run a system with a configuration like mine? what is the most typical/best configuration that people use with the yamaha receivers.. I kow I need to experiment, but wanna know what people normally do so I can start with that :)

Thanks in advance...

[Nigel_Pl]

Gemini,

You will need to set the subwoofer crossover to IN if you use the method above. I don't really know of any "normal" setting but many people have recommended running mains as SMALL so that they will be free from having to reproduce low frequency bass.

Here are some articles that you might find useful.

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_9_3/feature-article-multiple-crossovers-9-2002.html

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_7_2/feature-article-misunderstood-lfe-channel-april-2000.html

[Retread]

The Ventriloquist front-center speaker is fairly hefty. What about running it "Large" and then using the sub with the filter IN? Will the Ventriloquist handle the bass, or will it distort?

Originally posted by Nigel_Pl
Gemini,

You will need to set the subwoofer crossover to IN if you use the method above. I don't really know of any "normal" setting but many people have recommended running mains as SMALL so that they will be free from having to reproduce low frequency bass.

Here are some articles that you might find useful.

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_9_3/feature-article-multiple-crossovers-9-2002.html

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_7_2/feature-article-misunderstood-lfe-channel-april-2000.html

[Sorny]

They physical size of a speaker has nothing to do with it being "large" or "small". Those terms were a bad choice of terminology. It should be "full range" and "limited range" or something similar. The Ventriloquist is definitely limited range.

Sorny

[Retread]

The promotional materials for the Ventriloquist show the nice overlapping curves for the Ventriloquist and Sub. The specs on the Ventriloquist are 80Hz to 20kHz, which would lead one to believe there is a match between the bottom end of the Ventriloquist and the 80Hz rolloff of the Sub's lowpass filter.

So it would be nice to have an "official" answer from Hsu whether using the "large" setting on the receiver (no highpass to the Ventriloquist) and 80Hz lowpass on the subwoofer is a viable configuration.

[Sorny]

Retread, re-read what I typed. The Ventriloquist spec is 80Hz to 20KHz. Thus it is a small speaker. Use the Bass Management in your receiver to set a crossover somewhere between 80-120Hz and run all the ventriloquist speakers 'small'.

Sorny

[Ddavidson]

You want to have good acoustics to put under 100 Hz bass in mutiple room positions so unless your good at balancing up these 99% of people should use small.

A stereo speaker setup is hard enough but multichannel is a crazy task. Not to mention more main amp headroom by sending the low bass to a dedicated subwoofer.

Small's all around.


Ddavidson

[Retread]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Sorny
Retread, re-read what I typed. The Ventriloquist spec is 80Hz to 20KHz. Thus it is a [b]small speaker. Use the Bass Management in your receiver to set a crossover somewhere between 80-120Hz and run all the ventriloquist speakers 'small'.

Yes, I read it correctly the first time. However, saying that the ventriloquist has a response down to 80Hz doesn't say what the Ventriloquist does if subjected to frequencies below that. Does it just run out of gas, or does it go into severe distortion? If it just runs out of gas, I'm perfectly happy to play games with the sub's crossover to achieve a match. If, on the other hand, the Ventriloquist goes into distortion, that would be a bad thing.

I haven't yet heard the definitive answer to what the Ventriloquist does at lower frequencies.

[Retread]

Originally posted by Ddavidson
You want to have good acoustics to put under 100 Hz bass in mutiple room positions so unless your good at balancing up these 99% of people should use small.

A stereo speaker setup is hard enough but multichannel is a crazy task. Not to mention more main amp headroom by sending the low bass to a dedicated subwoofer.

Small's all around.


Ddavidson

I quote from the Ventriloquist promotional materials on the "Products" page:

"Hsu Research addresses the issue with the unique Ventriloquist center channel. The center channel possesses two 4” x 6” woofers that play the deeper notes for the micro satellites. A wide, balanced soundstage is created. Incedentaly, sending the 80 – 250 Hz frequencies to the subwoofer would ruin the soundstage.

"The system works by using a center channel with extra inputs and outputs for the left and right channels. The center channel directs the 80 – 250 Hz bass from the left and right channels to the center channel’s large woofers. The remaining higher frequencies are sent to the micro-satellites."

So, why shouldn't I set the front speakers for "large" and the rear for "small?' I'm not trying to balance a whole multichannel system. The "patent pending" Ventriloquist center speaker is supposed to be doing something magical for me. I'm trying to get some "official" explanation of what that may be, specifically in the 80Hz region. As far as I can tell, there is no published information on what the frequency response curves of the Ventriloquist center system may be in the 80Hz region, or how it responds to bass below those frequencies. As an engineer, I'd really like to have that kind of information. Surely it exists, and all is not just hand-waving!

[Dudley]

The "secret" of the ventriliquist is that it can play down to 80 Hz (thx crossover) wheras most micro satellites only go to 150 or 200 Hz. Playing to 80 Hz means you don't miss that range between 150 and 80, but it most certainly does not qualify the ventriliquist as large.

It is the very defininition of small as it does not go below the 80 Hz crossover.

Think of it as being just right small instead of too small.

[Ddavidson]

So, why shouldn't I set the front speakers for "large" and the rear for "small?' I'm not trying to balance a whole multichannel system.

Well what's with the rears and front's if its not multichannel you are balancing?

Also because your subwoofer handles low bass better, unless you have Aerial 20T front speakers.

Look in the end sound is a human sense, and we as "individual" humans being's have very differing opinions of the perception of what we hear.

So Sound is subjective try using the principle:
"If it sounds better to you then it must be "CORRECT"

So if the "large" setting sounds better to you then "who am I" to tell you different, as its your ears that listen to it not mine.

You have a 50/50 choice of large or small so try them both and you decide.
For me it's clearly the small setting but you may fall on the other side of 50%.


Ddavidson