What good is low end on main speakers?

[boomer]

I am planning a moderately budgeted system, in which I expect to include a subwoofer (probably VTF-2).

In choosing the main speakers (leaning toward the Axiom line at the moment, but whatever) I wonder: Why spend the extra money on higher-end tower models whose biggest marginal benefit is bass response, when the crossover (set at say, 60-80 Hz) is going to divert all the bottom-end signal to the sub anyway?

Might I be better off, dollar-for-dollar, to buy units optimized for bass above 60 Hz, and trust the sub for everything below that?

[Dudley]

Yes. If you have an excellent subwoofer and a receiver with good bass management, then don't worry about large tower speakers. Make sure they play strongly down to 80 hz or so and you should be fine. A good minimum woofer size is probably 5 1/4". You certainly don't need any more than a 6 1/2" This will be best "dollar for dollar"


I would choose the m3ti over the m2 because it will go solidly below the 80 hz mark (the m2 barely does) and is only $20 more per pair.

Don't overdo it and get micro speakers. You need good sound to below your crossover.

[sputnikv8]

Originally posted by Dudley

I would choose the m3ti over the m2 because it will go solidly below the 80 hz mark (the m2 barely does) and is only $20 more per pair.

Don't overdo it and get micro speakers. You need good sound to below your crossover.

Well, I actually just made that choice but I went with the M2. My thought process was that I put the money difference into the larger center channel. Plus, another part of my logic was (and I don't know if it makes a huge difference) I went with the M2's because that way all speakers had the same 5.25 woofer.

I don't have the STF3 yet, but, the sound works pretty good with my current klipsch sub.

just my .02

[boomer]

Originally posted by Dudley ...
I would choose the m3ti over the m2 because it will go solidly below the 80 hz mark (the m2 barely does) and is only $20 more per pair.

Don't overdo it and get micro speakers. You need good sound to below your crossover. [/B] Actually, I was thinking of going the other direction, up to the M22ti. This review, at least, sounded like it had somewhat better midrange and would couple nicely with a good subwoofer: http://www.soundstage.com/revequip/axiom_millenniam22tise.htm

I appreciate everyones' encouraging replies.

[Dudley]

Yes- it is always good if all speakers are as close as possible, and having the same size woofer all around helps. That logic can be taken a step further. Most center channels have two woofers and are shaped quite differently from the rest of a systems speakers. Both of these items effect sound. Idealy you would use the same exact speaker for the all 5 (6 or 7) speakers. This way the center won't sound slightly different.

Of course aesthetically many people prefer the nice slim center channel speaker over their TV.

[cschang]

While I think highly of Axiom speakers, the one thing I do not like with their line is the fact that their VP150 center channel's -3db point is 85hz. If you cross at the 80hz standard, you are missing some information. The same goes with their surrounds, which have even higher -3db points. Unless your receiver or pre/pro can set different crossover points for mains, center, and surrounds, some of the speakers are not going to be set up optimally.

I think the best bang for the buck speaker they have is the M22.

If you want to crossover at the recommended 80hz...then you need speakers that can go a bit deeper than that.

[Active Speaker]

Why don't you buy the Hsu Ventriloquist system with an STF-2? This would be killer, fit in your budget, satisfy both you and your wife, & you won't have to worry about integration problems because all the speakers were designed as a system. There are good reasons to buy larger speakers, but if you are on a limited budget, you're right, don't spend extra for part of a speaker you are not going to use.

[boomer]

Originally posted by Active Speaker
Why don't you buy the Hsu Ventriloquist system with an STF-2? This would be killer, fit in your budget, satisfy both you and your wife, & you won't have to worry about integration problems because all the speakers were designed as a system. . . . I have great faith is Hsu subwoofers, but I have a hard time believing the satellites will match the top-bass, midrange and treble performance of the Axiom M22ti.

If everything had to be designed "as a system" by a single manufacturer, Hsu would not be in business. But they are very much in business, primarily because they buiild one thing very well -- subwoofers.

The Ventriloquist system seems to me to be aimed at the customer who want a "home theater in a box" but wants something much better than he can find at Best Buy. I am sure it is much better for that purpose.

My own aim is to build a two-channel, music-quality system first, then grow it into a home theater. When I get to that point, I will be concerned with cschang's concern of the small hole at the bottom of the center channel of the Axiom VP150. There is certainly no hole in the main music channels of the M22ti, which reach down to 60 Hz.

[Active Speaker]

Well, you just answered your own question concerning the bottom end of main speakers. Based on the route you are taking, have you considered B&W, PSB, Energy, Triangle, NHTPolk, Paradigm, Mission, Acoustic Energy, or Epos? You should consider a pair of main speakers rated down to approximately 40hz; then, later, get a sub for the bottom octave or two.

[boomer]

Originally posted by Active Speaker
... You should consider a pair of main speakers rated down to approximately 40hz; then, later, get a sub for the bottom octave or two. Obviously not, because main speakers rated for that kind of bass response are much more expensive than the $400/pair M22ti.

But you do beg the original question: What good is really low bass in main speakers if is far below the crossover point? I understand that there should be some degree of overlap. But I am asking if there is value in buying expensive main speakers such as you suggest if a subwoofer is planned.

Low-end bass is omnidirectional. But I thought you had to get up to around 80 Hz before its directionality becomes a significant factor spatially.

[Active Speaker]

Actually, many of the speakers I mentioned have models (either new or used via Audiogon) that are around that price, some of them go down to a reasonable level, and since you are buying in steps, don't you want to hear some bass until you can afford the sub that you want. Also quality is quality. You can't go wrong buying a lower end model from a respected manufacturer (particularly if the speaker is well-recommended and SOUNDS GOOD IN YOUR HOME), and upgrading from there. Crossovers (even steep-sloped ones such as the Linkwith-Rileys in Hsu subs) do not simply "cut off" at the dialed-in frequency, rather their is overlap; you WANT useable bass lower and above the crossover point in case you have to move the crossover point up or down for flattest response. I know people who have purchased systems like you have suggested only to be disappointed because the speakers left a hole in the crossover or were uneven at best. It is better to be more cautious with your speaker purchase decisions, better to wait to afford the better pair you want then to "settle" in the short term. Remember, unless you can actually measure the drivers yourself, manufacturer's specs can be off by as much as 10-20% in your home, so get the fuller range pair to both enjoy music now, and be assured that you can get a good blend with a sub down the road; subs are really intended to deal with the bass from 40-50 hz down (even though they are often rated higher), let your stereo pair handle 40-50 hz up if for no other reason then to preserve precise imaging (which subs will not do since there bass is desiredly non-directional).

[boomer]

Originally posted by Active Speaker
Actually, many of the speakers I mentioned have models (either new or used via Audiogon) that are around that price, some of them go down to a reasonable level, and since you are buying in steps, don't you want to hear some bass until you can afford the sub that you want. ...
I guess I didn't make my assumption clear: I would be planning to install the subwoofer at the same time as the bookshelf speakers (maybe even before, but that's another thread). My point was that for less than the price of tower speakers rated down to ~ 35 Hz, I could put in M22ti bookshelf units (rated down to 60 Hz) plus a quality subwoofer. I inquired here about what I might be missing.

I am not married to the Axiom line, although I am attracted to it. Can you suggest some stereo alternatives in the $400/pair bracket?

[boomer]

Originally posted by cschang
While I think highly of Axiom speakers, the one thing I do not like with their line is the fact that their VP150 center channel's -3db point is 85hz. If you cross at the 80hz standard, you are missing some information. The same goes with their surrounds, which have even higher -3db points. . . .
FWIW, a rep from Axiom addressed that point in a thread in their own forum: http://www.axiomaudio.com/boards/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=tech&Number=27293&page=1&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=0&fpart=

[Active Speaker]

"I know it's difficult to get your head around the idea that low bass energy at 80 Hz and lower is not locatable, but it is so. Thus with proper bass management, most of the deep bass energy can be directed to the subwoofer, whereras the locational cues are accurately reproduced by the smaller center and satellite speakers. The crack of a mallet against the drum head of a bass drum tells your brain where the sound is coming from--that sound is in the midrange--but the deep bass energy in the 20-Hz-to-30- Hz region is radiated by your subwoofer. When all this is combined, smaller satellites with a good subwoofer can reproduce very convincing and complex movie soundtracks and multichannel music of all types at relatively high volumes in average-sized rooms." - resident expert at Axiom.

This is corroboration of my last post: bass in the 30 - 80 hz region can be directional which is one of the things that a deeper stereo pair will resolve. This is why you still need larger speakers for your mains. With all this talk about surround sound, don't forsake STEREO. There are MANY times when I PREFER the sound coming from my two main speakers to DTS or other surround formats. There are some multichannel recordings that are awesome, but it is still "hit and miss".

[boomer]

Originally posted by Active Speaker
"I know it's difficult to get your head around the idea that low bass energy at 80 Hz and lower is not locatable, but it is so. Thus with proper bass management, most of the deep bass energy can be directed to the subwoofer, whereras the locational cues are accurately reproduced by the smaller center and satellite speakers. The crack of a mallet against the drum head of a bass drum tells your brain where the sound is coming from--that sound is in the midrange--but the deep bass energy in the 20-Hz-to-30- Hz region is radiated by your subwoofer. When all this is combined, smaller satellites with a good subwoofer can reproduce very convincing and complex movie soundtracks and multichannel music of all types at relatively high volumes in average-sized rooms." - resident expert at Axiom.

This is corroboration of my last post: bass in the 30 - 80 hz region can be directional which is one of the things that a deeper stereo pair will resolve. ... Actually, it is not a corroboration; it is a contradiction.

Are you saying that the crossover should be closer to 40Hz when conventional practice is about 80 Hz?

The Axiom guy is saying what I believe is commonly accepted doctrine -- that below about 80 Hz, the audio source is not spatially locatable. Spatial factors are certainly not a factor down around 40 Hz, AFIK.

I am more interested in stereo than in multimedia. So for purposes of this analysis, let's just avoid confusion by concentrating on the two real music channels.

[Active Speaker]

You CAN locate bass direction in the 40 - 80 hz range; sounds like the guy at Axiom is trying to sell his speakers. Well, I've tried to help you Boomer, but you seem set on Axiom at the moment. I can just tell you that you'll be MUCH happier if you're going to have to GROW your system, concentrating first on a decent quality (with extension rated to around 40hz) stereo pair.

[Active Speaker]

And, I say that the crossover setting will depend on the low end extension of your speakers; and yes, I believe that a sub should handle the LOWEST frequencies (40 hz on down). I'm not sure whose conventional wisdom you're following unless you're referring to the trend in home theater to crossover at around 100hz to mate with satellites. BUT, you said that you are more interested in music, and with music, subs were originally designed for that lowest octave where one can FEEL more than HEAR.

[Active Speaker]

Boomer, go to Audiogon.com.

There are two speakers you should consider $400 or less (try the other brands I suggested if these don't work out). Type in PSB and look for the Image 4T (sometimes just hte 4T), rated down below 40%, attractive, great-sounding, recommended by Stereophile. Also, type in NHT and look for the Super Twos.

There are many other possiblities; and these speakers were DESIGNED for music AND home theater.

Then get an STF-2, & you'll be jammin'!

[boomer]

Originally posted by Active Speaker
You CAN locate bass direction in the 40 - 80 hz range; sounds like the guy at Axiom is trying to sell his speakers. Well, I've tried to help you Boomer, but you seem set on Axiom at the moment. . . . As I said above, I am attracted to Axiom but not married to them yet. And I respectfully repeat my request for specific, quality alternatives in the $400/pair bracket with response down to 40 Hz, as you suggested exist. In the Axiom line, the high-end towers go down to ~ 35 Hz, but they sell for $1,100/pair. That's out of my price range.

Edit: Just saw your post about Audiogon.com. Thx. I hadn't really considered used speakers, but that is an interesting option!

Originally posted by Active Speaker
And, I say that the crossover setting will depend on the low end extension of your speakers; and yes, I believe that a sub should handle the LOWEST frequencies (40 hz on down). I'm not sure whose conventional wisdom you're following unless you're referring to the trend in home theater to crossover at around 100hz.
I believe that the default and/or recommended subwoofer crossover from most vendors, including Hsu, is in the neighborhood of 80 Hz. And the whole rationale for using a single subwoofer, as is the common practice, is that sounds below about 80 Hz are not directly locatable by human perception.

BTW, I believe Dr. Hsu disagrees with you about the spatial perception of subwoofer frequencies. He often recommends putting the subwoofer out near or even behind the listeners!

I would be interested in hearing others' opinions on the 80 Hz crossover, "conventional wisdom" issue, but you and I seem to be the only ones up this late. :-)

[Active Speaker]

Dr. Hsu is definitely the expert, but ultimately there is more to your situation than just the cut off frequency. Just a side note: all of my high end equipment is used, but for a sub, I am going to buy a Hsu brand new. The Hsu product is truly unique because it is so exceptional and so affordable. There are very few (if any) true bargains in audio anymore. It seems like we either have super expensive almost specialty products, or mass-produced low end; the middle has all but dried up. Its not that there are no longer any excellent mid-priced items, its that now you have to be fairly savvy to find them. You also have to take your time and research what's available. The payoff is high if you do that. Regardless of the ultimate recommended crossover point, I still think you should expand your search. Let's see what others have to say...

[Nigel_Pl]

Here is a good article that covers this issue and is worth a read. I've pasted part of the article.

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_9_3/feature-article-multiple-crossovers-9-2002.html

there is also an explaination of the 0.1 LFE channel...

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_7_2/feature-article-misunderstood-lfe-channel-april-2000.html

1. Their crossovers (or the low-pass slopes in the surround processor or receiver) aren’t fast (sharp) enough in their transition. It’s not that 100 Hz is really that easy to localize, but that frequencies a bit above it are. Keep in mind that the shape of the low-pass filter is an issue, and in reality a curve which varies from crossover to crossover in how quickly it transitions from no slope to it’s steepest slope, the rate specified, such as 12 dB/octave or 24 dB/octave. Still, consider a theoretical impossibility, for the sake of illustration- the immediate crossover that goes from completely flat to a straight angle down exactly at the stated crossover frequency.

Take 400 Hz and 800 Hz tones as content to be filtered out by our subwoofer crossover as an example of localizable content. A crossover at 50 Hz, 12 dB/octave will be …
-12 dB @ 100 Hz
-24 dB @ 200 Hz
-36 dB @ 400 Hz
-48 dB @ 800 Hz

Contrast that with the same 12 dB/octave slope kicking in at 100 Hz, and you get…
-0 dB @ 100 Hz
-12 dB @ 200 Hz
-24 dB @ 400 Hz
-36 dB @ 800 Hz

In such a case, the 100 Hz crossover point is certainly worse than the 50 Hz crossover point, and very likely problematic.

On the other hand, consider a 24dB/octave crossover slope implemented at 100 Hz, and the results show…
-0 dB @ 100 Hz
-24 dB @ 200 Hz
-48 dB @ 400 Hz
-72 dB @ 800 Hz

As you can easily see, a subwoofer with a 12 dB/octave crossover would not be suitable for a remotely higher crossover frequency. However, that would not preclude 100 Hz as a crossover frequency, as the sharper filter slope that started at 100 Hz would have less content above 200 Hz than the first, shallower filter that started at 50 Hz.

2. Some subwoofers aren’t suitable for higher crossover frequencies because of distortion. Harmonic distortion components are multiples of the original content, be it an original fundamental or harmonic itself. For example, harmonic distortion of a 20 Hz tone will generate energy @ 40 Hz, 60 Hz, 80 Hz, 100 Hz, etc., usually with the lower components higher in amplitude in the case of loudspeakers. In fact, many less experienced listeners, even some experienced musicians, will actually PREFER the distorted low frequency reproduction, as it provides MORE low bass, with the added spectrum in the more audible range. It sounds louder, and richer. When these subwoofers are allowed to run at higher frequencies via higher crossover settings, their harmonic distortion components reach a higher spectrum as well. It’s not that they necessarily produce more distortion than at lower crossover settings, but that the distortion is easier to hear, and easier to locate, and unlike the original content that fed the subwoofer, impervious the attenuation by the crossover, as the distortion is generated after the filter circuit by the power amplifier or the driver itself. In such a case, many may blame the crossover frequency for the increased localization problem, when in fact it’s just making the distortion problem more obvious. While I mention this in the context of subwoofers that have problems with higher crossover points, for those looking for any measure of fidelity, I would go so far as to offer this as an indication of a subwoofer unsuitable for use, period.

[Lwang]

I got Magnepan speakers and I could tell you, aside from whether bass is localizable below 80hz, that bass is just bass. Playing a freq sweep that passes over the crossover freq, one could easily tell that the bass characteristics has suddenly changed. The SPL could be matched, but it is the same. Plus on listening to music, there is a difference in the way the mid bass instrument sounds.

Take 400 Hz and 800 Hz tones as content to be filtered out by our subwoofer crossover as an example of localizable content. A crossover at 50 Hz, 12 dB/octave will be …
-12 dB @ 100 Hz
-24 dB @ 200 Hz
-36 dB @ 400 Hz
-48 dB @ 800 Hz

Contrast that with the same 12 dB/octave slope kicking in at 100 Hz, and you get…
-0 dB @ 100 Hz
-12 dB @ 200 Hz
-24 dB @ 400 Hz
-36 dB @ 800 Hz

In such a case, the 100 Hz crossover point is certainly worse than the 50 Hz crossover point, and very likely problematic.

On the other hand, consider a 24dB/octave crossover slope implemented at 100 Hz, and the results show…
-0 dB @ 100 Hz
-24 dB @ 200 Hz
-48 dB @ 400 Hz
-72 dB @ 800 Hz
To convert that to ratios, -12dB correlates to 16% and -24dB correlates to 4%. Whether you think 14% of the sound coming from another location would be localizable would be up to you.

[Influence]

In keeping with your budget range of approximately $400 for a pair of bookshelfs, here are a few that might be worthy of checking out:

Paridigm Mini Monitor (solid response down into the 50Hz range) and fantastic overall sound quality, pretty accurate - yet not clinical, decent bass response, decent power handling. Worthy of a listen. I paid $267 for a pair. You might want to check out the even cheaper Atoms - Stereophile loves them for under 200 a pair.

PSB (Alphas? I think they are called). Damn good sound for under 300 a pair.

Quad has a new range of home theater speakers, the LM line, the smallest bookshelf might be close to the $400 price point you are looking for. Phenomenal sound from these puppies, and by far, some of the most gorgeous finishes I've ever seen on a speaker under $1000.

[Dudley]

Yes, PSB Alpha B's are only $185 brand new at kiefsav.com They go down to about 65 hz at -3db. They are quite compact, and would do very nicely with a subwoofer. Stereophile has good things to say about these.

The PSB Image 2b has some nice bass. It goes down to 49 hz @-3db. This would sound fine if you were not going to have a subwoofer for a while. It is $295 @ kiefsav.

The Image 1b is between the two, and is about $225.

http://www.psbspeakers.com/s/newAlphaSeries.html

[boomer]

Originally posted by Dudley
Yes, PSB Alpha B's are only $185 brand new at kiefsav.com They go down to about 65 hz at -3db. They are quite compact, and would do very nicely with a subwoofer. Stereophile has good things to say about these.

The PSB Image 2b has some nice bass. It goes down to 49 hz @-3db. This would sound fine if you were not going to have a subwoofer for a while. It is $295 @ kiefsav.

The Image 1b is between the two, and is about $225.

http://www.psbspeakers.com/s/newAlphaSeries.html

Thx to all for the suggestions. I definitely want to look at the PSB line, and may hear some in a local showroom. (I have thought of the Axiom M2 or M3 as a head-to-head competitor with the PSB Alpha, and I probably can afford to kick it up a notch from that price point, which is how I arrived at the Axiom M22ti as a candidate. So the PSB Image line may interest me, although its list prices seem a little higher.)

I am still digesting Nigel_Pl's weighty input, mostly as it relates to HT applications. Just to keep my own feeble mind straight, and to reflect my own priorities, I am still trying to focus my analysis on two-channel stereo at the moment.

All of this gets me back to my original question, which is whether it makes any sense to buy lower-reaching mains if I am going to have a subwoofer anyway.

After reading the above material, and the VTF-2 manual, I have come to the conclusion that for stereo, I should adjust the crossover down to near the -3 dB point for the mains, which is pretty much what Active Speaker was suggesting. I suppose that's why they put an adjustable crossover on it :-)

I understand that, postulating the subwoofer's existence in the mix, the advantanges of a very wide overlap between the response ranges of the sub and the mains are "nice-to-have." It is when I introduce dollars into the equation that it becomes harder to justify.

Put it another way: Suppose I did scrounge the extra money, so I could either

1) upgrade the main speakers to a price point of, say $800 pair

or

2) upgrade the subwoofer from a VTF-2 to a TN-1220HO/amp.

What say you?

[cschang]

Originally posted by boomer
FWIW, a rep from Axiom addressed that point in a thread in their own forum: http://www.axiomaudio.com/boards/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=tech&Number=27293&page=1&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=0&fpart=

I have read that before. He did not address the issue of crossing over at the recommended 80hz with their center and surrounds having -3db points above that.

He explained bass management and did not address the issue.

[cschang]

Have a look at Ascend Acoustics (http://www.ascendacoustics.com)

Their CBM-170 has been highly acclaimed.

And thier new CMT-340 l/r is also very excellent.
http://www.ascendforum.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=199

[Influence]

Boomer, you are completely right by focusing on a system that will first sound good in 2 channel stereo. If a system sounds great in stereo, it is easy to build it into a good surround system by adding additional speakers from the line. However, when buying your initial front left/right stereo pair, ensure that there are other speakers that will match well with it for the center channel, surrounds, back surrounds, etc. The only other thing I would watch out for is SPL levels and power handling. A home theater set up tends to get "abused" a little more than most audiophile stereo setups. Make sure whatever you buy still sounds good at high playback levels.

As you start delving into the audiophile world, you start to learn that midrange and mid-bass are just about the toughest things for a speaker to do right. This is where buying a full range speaker comes into play. Personally, I am drawn towards speakers with larger "boxes." To me, they just sound fuller, more rich. This stems from the fact that because they tend to utilize larger drivers in larger cabinets, they have better mid-bass response (and usually bass as well). You don't get this type of "complete" sound from Bose microcubes or other similar speakers that can barely reproduce 60Hz. Also, midbass is somewhat directional. Personally, I find that my ears localize bass down towards around the 50-60Hz range. Maybe it's a mental thing, but I swear I can hear where it is coming from.

What type of receiver do you have? If you are in the market, try and find something with adjustable crossover rates for each individual channel and set it as low as you can for each speaker. Remember, a subwoofer is only supposed to reproduce the bottom two octaves of bass, or basically, 20-40 HZ. All other bass should be reproduced from you main speakers (because it starts becoming more localized above 40Hz. This includes surrounds as well. Granted, this isn't usually feasible to have full range speakers all around, but I would recommend trying to get as close to full range in each speaker position as your room and budget allow. Overall, it will help get you a much better overall sound.

[Influence]

If you had an extra 400 for the speakers, (total 800), I would probably tell you to upgrade the mains over moving up in the subwoofer. Everyone says that these Hsu's sound fantastic (I am not yet an owner - awaiting the arrival of the VTF3-MkII), so all you would be gaining with the 1220 is higher spl and a little bit lower extension. How big is your room? You may not even need the bigger sub. How loud do you listen to music/movies?

If you have 800 to spend on a pair of bookshelves, I would HIGHLY recommend that you check out the larger QUAD LM-17(I think???) bookshelf with the 6.5" driver. I heard them in an A/B comparison in an audiophile shop next to the PSB Alpha Bs and thought that there was a noticeable difference in sound quality. Never mind the fact that the quads look about 10 times more expensive than the PSBs. Imaging and detail was fantastic and the overall sound (listening to reference recordings recent "Rachmaninoff-Symphonic Dances" RR-96 and believe it or not some well recorded trance (I used to DJ, so I gotta make sure that the speakers can still "kick" a little bit :) ) was just absolutely beautiful.

Also, don't forget that with bookshelves, you are going to have to invest in some high quality stands, so figure a good 100-200 for those as well.

[Raindance]

Boomer,

I think what other folk seem to be saying makes sense (shop around; be an educated buyer) but this doesn't rule out Axioms.

I did a great deal of online research and decided on a pair of M22tis with a HSU sub (I've the M22s now, will be getting the sub in a few days). Like the specs say, they play confidently down to 60hz (and sound great doing it). They roll off on the low bass, but as you say, that doesn't matter if one has a quality sub and a good crossover system.

So, I'd support your tentative choice of the M22tis. I love mine.

To speak to the larger discussion of the purpose of subwoofers here, no matter what the extension of a speaker is, a subwoofer is better designed for low frequencies and *will take stress of the speaker*; i.e. with an 80hz crossover, the dual woofers on the M22 can concentrate on producing midrange better. A good subwoofer system should clean up your midrange as well.

I think Axiom is one of these 'mid-priced deals' another poster talked about. But keep researching- it's always good to know more about what you might buy. :)

RD

[boomer]

Originally posted by Active Speaker
. . . look for the Image 4T (sometimes just hte 4T), rated down below 40%, attractive, great-sounding, recommended by Stereophile. . . . Well, I just got back from the showroom where I listened to the Image 4Ts. I tried to put them through their paces with the finale track from Mahler's 2nd symphony.

I would say that I like them, and they are a candidate for a used-speaker deal, but they didn't make me want to marry them at their list price of $650. The pair didn't sound as good as I imagine the Axiom M22ti would :-) I know that's neither fair nor rational. But I doubt if a used-speaker seller would be crazy about shipping them to me on a 30-day trial basis.

I was disappointed in the PSB subwoofers. So I keep coming back to Hsu based on research alone. Incidently, the retail rep said the shop used to be a Hsu Research dealer, but stopped carrying them as demos or inventory because there was insufficient unit volume. I know enough about retail to know that you always sell what you have.

[boomer]

Duplicate post. Sorry.

[Active Speaker]

Boomer,

It's been a long time since I had the time & motivation to do what you're doing: auditioning speakers for purchase. With that in mind, I am more convinced that, based on your situation, you should either buy the PSB Alpha or Alpha B (65 - 20000 hz, -10 db at 55 hz, $249 retail, less used; or if you can come up with more cash, the PSB Image 4T (38 - 20000 hz, +/-3 db, 48 - 20000 hz, +/-1.5 db, $649 retail, under $400 used). Here is what Stereophile recently had to say:

Stereophile
Recommends Alpha B, Image 4T.
In its October 2002 issue, Stereophile again picks two PSB speakers as Recommended Components:

The Alpha B:

"With this, the third and latest version of the Alpha, a long-recommended two-way bass-reflex, Paul Barton has trickled down some of the design and manufacturing innovations of his more expensive Image Series. BJR was thrilled: 'The PSB is a classic example of the benefits of trickle-down technology in a serious high-end speaker design.' He found that the Alpha B 'excelled with vocals,' presented 'excellent articulation of subtle transients and microdynamic inflections,' and showcased superb detail resolution and low-level dynamic resolution...'Even now, considering again the quality of construction and sound of these remarkable little boxes, and checking the price yet again, I'm still shaking my head.'"

The Image 4T:

"A lot of technology for the price, declared BJR, who found a smooth, natural tonal balance that sounded superb with vocalists: lots of body and no colorations. A transparent midrange revealed inner transient detail, and Bob says the Image loved woodwinds. 'Its bass performance was uncanny, with a bottom-end extension I didn't think possible from a speaker of this size and price.'...The speakers didn't call attention to themselves, the PSBs disappearing into the wide, deep soundstage."

These two speakers were also recently recommende by the Absolute Sound. You can get more details on their website: www.psbspeakers.com

NOW, your bigger choice: STF-2 or VTF-2 or STF-3 or VTF- MKII or TN1220. I think you ought to go with the TN1220; here's why (BTW, there is NO OTHER SUB BRAND to consider besides Hsu. Under $2-3K, there are no better subs. Who else sells direct? SVS? Please!): You should get the TN1220 because of its incredible performance, transparency of sound, light weight, appearance, ease of placement, innovative design, and because Dr. Hsu says it's the best! If you consider any of the other box subs, make a model (based on the listed dimensions) and see the size we're looking at; this is what moved me toward the TN1220 (nothing at all against the other subs which are also superior products).

[Dudley]

Don't mess with used, as I mentioned previously the Alpha B is $185 (a pair) brand new A stock at Kiefs AV. Similar savings on the 4t.

Might also give a listen to the Image 2b. It has nearly the bass of the 4t (1 6.5" woofer vs 2 5.25"), and is only $295.

The Phase Technology speakers are also very nice. The Theatro 4.5 (small bookshelf) and 6.5 (LCR) might be worth a listen.

There are lots of other nice brands as well. Whatever sounds good (to an extent - sometimes speakers that sound excellent in the showroom can be tiring at home, and speakers that sound dull in the show room sound great at home).

Auditioning speakers is tough!

[tdekany]

Originally posted by Dudley
Yes, PSB Alpha B's are only $185 brand new at kiefsav.com They go down to about 65 hz at -3db. They are quite compact, and would do very nicely with a subwoofer. Stereophile has good things to say about these.

The PSB Image 2b has some nice bass. It goes down to 49 hz @-3db. This would sound fine if you were not going to have a subwoofer for a while. It is $295 @ kiefsav.

The Image 1b is between the two, and is about $225.

http://www.psbspeakers.com/s/newAlphaSeries.html

You should follow your heart and go with the Axiom, especially if you can return them if not satisfied. As far as the other brands suggested here: NHT, PSB Alpha, Paradigm etc... while I have no experience with the latest version of the PSB Alphas, the NHT Super zero is a 100% better sounding speaker. I've had both for years and the super zeros are still putting smiles on my face every time. I don't have the PSBs any more. You could try Dana Audio's similar speaker (forgot the model) that is less money then the PSB and sounds alot better. Although the Super Zeros are not made anymore, you should listen to NHTs.

[Active Speaker]

Once you've decided whether or not to go with a fuller range pair of main speakers, unfortunately, you just have to audition as many different speakers as you can. What you will prefer will be unique to your music preferences, your room, your electronics, whether you like detailed or smooth sound, etc...

[boomer]

Well, I bought a Hsu STF-2 today (from CompUSA), so that variable in the equation is all but settled. It is pretty and black in my living room.

Unfortunately, it was also DOA -- no sign of power at the LED, although the fuse seems intact. So it goes back for replacement tomorrow. Let the retailer earn their markup.

Also, from Fry's, where I went in search of an adapter (long story), I bought a Harman/Kardon AVR525 demo unit. I just think of it as a $500 adapter. :-)

So I am back to deciding on main speakers. Since I was less than awestruck by hearing the PSB Image 4Ts, and I still want to try the Axiom M22s together with the STF-2, and since I've already spent the extra money I might have spent on upgrading the mains, I just talked myself into ordering a pair of M22s on Axiom's 30-day trial.

[Mojo]

I had to join the forum so I could tell my experience with paradigm speakers. I have owned paradigm mini-monitors for seveal years. I recently discovered SACD and DVD-audio. WOW! full range sound out of all 5 channels..it's awesome. I purchased a pair of monitor 3's on ebay for $171. What a difference, the bass has ALOT more punch. The mini's are on the surrounds, I have the paradigm LCR 350 for the center. I highly reccomend the monitor 3's. I have the older monitor 3's which have a front firing base port. The new ones are smaller with a rear firing port.

Here are the specs of the older monitor 3.
+/- 2db, 55-20kHz
bass extension 36Hz
sensitivity 89db

spec for older mini-monitor
+/-2db, 57-20kHz
bass extension 43Hz
sensitivity 89db

One of my favorite Surroud DVD's is the Blue Man Group on DVD-audio. This is a bass lovers must have! They beat on big drums and other wierd percussion things, and it comes out all speakers. This is a good test for the directional bass question. I have unplugged my paradigm ps-1000 sub, mainly due to this dvd. It makes flabby rumbling noises from the corner of my room.

I am still looking at Hsu subs, but I would like a crossover at 50 Hz or so. I dont want to give up the good bass my main speakers are making.

Boomer, I hope this helps you some - IMHO, buy the best speakers you can afford.

Mojo

[Active Speaker]

Mojo,

I don't know if you noticed, but the TN1220 with the 500 watt amp option, crosses over at 51 hz.

[cschang]

Originally posted by Active Speaker
Mojo,

I don't know if you noticed, but the TN1220 with the 500 watt amp option, crosses over at 51 hz.

Yes...but is if you intend to use it onboard crossover. It can be disabled if you have a pre/pro or receiver that handles bass management.

[Active Speaker]

I don't know why you would ever want to use the crossover in your receiver unless you had a super hi end receiver or you only were intending to use your sub for home theater or you had main speakers that had no lower end extension; otherwise, the crossover in the Hsu 500 watt amp would be used between your processor and your sub & main speakers because it has a high pass filter which will prevent doubling of frequencies where the woofwers of your mains and the sub are concerned.

If you want to use the processor's crossover, why (unless you want two subs) would you NEED the 500 watt amp? It won't give you more than a very slight increase in sound; 3 db more.

[cschang]

If you want to use the crossover on the Hsu amp, there are also different crossover modules available.

[Ddavidson]

Unfortunately, it was also DOA -- no sign of power at the LED, although the fuse seems intact. So it goes back for replacement tomorrow. Let the retailer earn their markup.

That is strange. Did the box show any signs of abuse as some have reported when an STF-2 was DOA?


Ddavidson

[Lwang]

The 500w amp has a active crossover that allows you to adjust both the low and high pass individually. You could have slight overlap to compensate for some SPL drops, or have some underlap to tune out some bumps in the xo region. That could be applied to both left and right channel seperately, although the low pass would still have one xo freq.

[boomer]

Originally posted by Ddavidson
That is strange. Did the box show any signs of abuse as some have reported when an STF-2 was DOA?

No signs of abuse, but the packing box might have been resealed. Perhaps someone had already returned it once to CompUSA. I exhanged it, and the second unit has no power-suply problem.

But I can't really try it out until my Axioms arrive. They shipped today.

[joema]

I have a 5.1 config with STF-2 and had Axiom M22ti/VP100/QS8, and Yamaha RX-V1400 receiver. The Axioms and STF-2 sound great. You get the nice detailed Axiom sound up high, complemented by the STF-2 bass down low.

That said, I just upgraded to Axiom M60ti/VP150/QS8, currently with an STF-2 but going to a VTF-3. The larger floorstanding mains definitely sound better. The M22tis aren't bad, but the M60tis are better, at least in my 20x17 ft room. More important than speaker selection is placement and room acoustics. E.g. I got more improvement by just relocating my M22tis to an optimal location and listening angle than I got from upgrading to the M60tis.

If anybody is considering SACD/DVD-A, another factor is the lack of bass management in many players, combined with nearly all SACD/DVD-A players requiring analog-only connections to your amp. This essentially bypasses and makes unusable all the fancy digital effects such as time arrival adjustment (speaker distance), variable bass crossover, EQ, etc.

Newer SACD/DVD-A players have *some*bass management, but it's often poor. E.g. my Sony DVP-NC685V has a fixed crossover at 120 (!) Hz. The Pioneer DV563A crosses over at 120Hz for SACD and 200Hz (!!) for DVD-A. These are fixed and non-adjustable.

I have no idea why they designed them this way, but it makes full range speakers more useful.

[BeFree]

Now, getting back to the original question of this thread re: the value of the low end on main speakers -- I recently upgraded my Polk bookshelf speakers to tower speakers. I didn't believe it was going to make much difference, but I decided to upgrade because I got such a great deal. Anyway, there is a big difference!!! The sound out of towers is richer, fuller, and more dynamic. I still keep the crossover at 80 hz on the receiver, so my VTF-2 is pumping out the bass, but the midrange/bass from the fronts add a lot more texture to both movies and music.

If you have the space and can afford it, purchase towers instead of bookshelfs for the fronts. You won't regret it.

[boomer]

Just to put some closure on this, as the original poster, I have been using the Axiom M22s with the STF-2, and they are all keepers. The big-bookshelf mains are clear and clean across their range, and the subwoofer woofs beautifully! Crossover is set at 80 Hz.

I understand that there would be some incremental, qualitative improvement for music with the M60 towers, but that is what future upgrades are for. :-)

In the meantime, now that I am happy with the music, I am building the video part of a theater (aka living room -- no SWMBO/WAF factor here). Finally I will add a center speaker and surrounds to match.

I will report, however subjectively, that the Axioms and the Hsu are all I hoped they would be. I think these two companies are quite similar: Both are true to their engineering roots, innovative, customer-responsive, and both sell direct. It's a great business model when well executed.

[tdekany]

Originally posted by BeFree
Now, getting back to the original question of this thread re: the value of the low end on main speakers -- I recently upgraded my Polk bookshelf speakers to tower speakers. I didn't believe it was going to make much difference, but I decided to upgrade because I got such a great deal. Anyway, there is a big difference!!! The sound out of towers is richer, fuller, and more dynamic. I still keep the crossover at 80 hz on the receiver, so my VTF-2 is pumping out the bass, but the midrange/bass from the fronts add a lot more texture to both movies and music.

If you have the space and can afford it, purchase towers instead of bookshelfs for the fronts. You won't regret it.

Dr Hsu suggests the opposite. Get some high quality ""bookshelf"" speakers.

[BeFree]

Dr Hsu suggests the opposite. Get some high quality ""bookshelf"" speakers.

Perhaps marginally for music (classical, jazz, etc.), but definitely not for the true home theater experience.

[tdekany]

Originally posted by BeFree
Perhaps marginally for music (classical, jazz, etc.), but definitely not for the true home theater experience.

Sorry, I should have said monitors.