Power Cord Change

[BeFree]

Lots of audiophiles upgrade the power cords on their gear and they swear that it makes a difference.

Has anyone upgraded the power cord on their sub? If so, what effect did it have on the sound?

I upgraded the power cord on my VTF-2 and enhanced the bass a bit.

[Active Speaker]

This cable has made a significant improvement in terms of transparency, transients, etc...: www.auralthrillsaudio.com
Everything the guy claims is true; I didn't believe it until I heard it with my own ears.

[BeFree]

Active Speaker --

You can make your own power cord with the same specs as the power cord in your link for about $35 with parts from www.partsexpress.com. There's no soldering needed and it takes about ten minutes. All you need is a screwdriver, scissors, and some wire strippers.

[Active Speaker]

Actually, that is almost correct. The last time I checked, it was around $45 minus the actual wire he uses. Parts Express sells 10 guage stranded Carol wire; he uses 10 guage solid core silver plated wire. Since I haven't made one myself out of the materials Parts Express has to offer, I can't really confirm if his wire is better, BUT, just like Dr. Hsu's designs, everything this guy has told me has been right on. He told me that he bought hundreds of dollars worth of wire, experimenting with what sounds best before settling on this particular one. He buys it overseas; it took him several months to open an account with the vendor. After considering making my own, I decided to go ahead and buy one of his because: 1) I want to support him because he makes some excellent products at a fair price; 2) He's never lied to me; 3) I have witnessed his claims personally to be true, not exaggerated; 4) I don't have the time or inclination to personally order hundreds of dollars of different wires and try them in my system; he does. So, to recap, I understand what you are saying, but I have to reiterate: the guy has a gift with making great sounding cords & cables, along the lines of Dr. Hsu's gift with subs. You realize that anyone could make their own subs, don't you (but Dr. Hsu's would sound better because of his talent making them that the average person does not possess). Check this guy's Audiogon & Ebay rating: 100%.

[Retread]

Can someone explain to me in technical terms what property of power cables is supposed to make a difference in the sound of the system? I totally disbelieve this.

Silver plated wire? Silver plating is used for high frequencies where there is skin effect resulting from the electromagnetics flushing the current out of the cross section to the skin.

I suppose if the filtration in the power supply was sufficiently lousy that trash came through into the audio, putting chokes on the power line would help, but that would be pretty lousy electronics equipment.

Again, I think this is a scam with concommitant placebo effect.

[Active Speaker]

Well, Retread, do you believe that when cd was released over a decade ago, it was "perfect sound forever"? Do you believe that cd's sound better than lp's? I agree with you, there usually is a scientific explanation as to why something (such as a cable or an interconnect, or a speaker driver, or speaker wire, etc...) sounds better, BUT, since most of us do not have the time or inclination to spend our entire lives measuring equipment to discover the reason that one thing sounds better then another doesn't mean it doesn't sound better. I have several engineering-type friends who are always initially skeptical, and I don't blame them.

When I purchased his power cable, I first hooked it up to my preamp (which is a passive buffered design) and after listening for two days, I couldn't hear a significant difference. However, I then hooked it up to my D/A converter, & MY MOUTH DROPPED TO THE FLOOR! I could not believe what I was hearing! It was EVERYTHING that his site claims & more! After reflecting on this, I could only conclude that since my preamp has a unique, accomodating design, that maybe that was why I didn't hear any difference. SO, the next day (to make sure that I wasn't losing my mind), I brought the power cord over to my best friend's house (who has a high-end home theater receiver), & while he was on the phone, I pulled the cord out of my jacket, and (without his knowledge), exchanged his cord with mine. I turned on the Led Zeppelin "DVD", and when he came into the room, I pushed "play". He was STUNNED(As was I)! After 2 hrs!, in which he told me several times that he couldn't understand it, that he had NEVER heard his system sound this good (he repeatedly asked me if I had changed any of his settings), I told him what I had done. He couldn't believe it, but after I took my cord back, he bought his own two days later because he said that he just couldn't EVER go back to the way it sounded before the change. I have had three home audio experiences in my life where the sound was so good that everyone had an intense smile on their face for several hours (after the equipment was turned off!), this was one of them.

Now, I don't work for this guy, and I'm also not BSing here. Order one, if it doesn't perform as advertised, return it for a full refund. I'm telling you, this guy is very conscientious, just like Dr. Hsu (who answers every email PERSONALLY). This is why I'm buying a Hsu sub, & 3 of my friends are as well, and why I keep buying the Aural Thrills Audio products as well.

[BeFree]

Retread --

What difference does it make whether it is placebo effect or not?

If a doctor gives a patient who is in pain a sugar pill and tells him it will relieve his suffering and the patient subsequently reports beneficial effects from it, does it really matter that it was only a sugar pill?

The same holds true for many products that are marketed. There's a "perceived value" in most consumer products. In our world, those who really get off on every little tweak and are willing to spend plenty of money for these "luxury items" are called "audiophiles". Don't try to convince them that their power cords are merely sugar pills. The scientific evidence you're seeking is irrelevant.

Now, as I said, my DIY power cord made a difference to me and it had a greater "perceived value" than the price I paid for it, so I'm content with that. Besides, it looks kinda cool, too.

[Active Speaker]

Exactly, BeFree! But, don't be too sure that your cable or the one I'm talking about is simply placebo. Often, there are those that LISTEN intently to many different tweaks. They discover some that make a sonic difference, AND THEN, someone comes along who has a scientific/mathematical background who explains what is causing the sonic improvement. Science can affirm or deny perceived phenomena and it can also predict, but it more frequently does the former as regards home audio because there are more audiophiles then there are audiophile/impiricists. And I can assure you, that people who listen to music for many hours a day can definitely hear AND describe the improvements they are hearing. And the better the equipment, usually the more dramatic the perceived improvement can be with certain tweaks.

[BeFree]

Retread is asking for scientific evidence. I doubt the existence of generally accepted scientific verification of the value of higher quality power cords or any other tweak such as speaker wire, interconnects, vibration isolators, carpet spikes, etc. Retread recognizes this, and that's why he referenced the placebo effect.

That being said, the issue is that science is purely objective, whereas the audio world is largely subjective. Few people buy speakers solely on their specs. We don't own Hsu subs because of their specs, we own them because we believe they sound great. So whenever we look for scientific confirmation in the audio world, we always tend to fall back on our personal opinions of how it sounds. There are plenty of things in the world that science simply cannot explain, and audio upgrades fall in that category.

Now, let's get back to the original question -- Has anyone else upgraded the power cord for their Hsu sub? If so, please share your results with us.

Active Speaker -- do you use your Audio Thrills power cord for your sub?

[Active Speaker]

I will be using one as soon as my new Hsu sub arrives; I'll let you know how it sounds at that point.

[vbjeff]

If a power cable was a higher gauge than the cable used wire a house/apt then I can see how using a lower gauge power cable could help. But I do not see how a power cable with a lower gauge than the cable used to wire a house can magically squeeze more power out of a thin pipe??

FYI: One of the reasons LPs sound better than CDs because the higher frequency phase information is lost when sampling at 44KHz which degrades the sound stage. Both can have good frequency response, but an LP has better depth information in the imaging due to the higher frequency phase information. That is one of the reasons why SACDs and DVD-A sound better than CDs. (Of course the system I that heard the LPs sound better than CDs was much more expensive than I would spend, so I stuck with my CDs anyway).
;)

[Active Speaker]

Yeah, and if we could solder our power amps directly to the wall we wouldn't have to squeeze anything out. The fact remains that power cord upgrades DO make a difference, often significant.

Thanks for the FYI, but that is only ONE reason. Also, you can hear the difference on much lower cost turntables (on decent recordings) also, we just don't listen to turntables anymore so we have either forgotten or have never experienced the difference first hand.

[Retread]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Active Speaker
[B]Yeah, and if we could solder our power amps directly to the wall we wouldn't have to squeeze anything out. The fact remains that power cord upgrades DO make a difference, often significant.

I just measured the resistance of several power cords that came with electronics at about 0.1 Ohms. Let's suppose a piece of electronics draws 600 Watts. That would be about five Amps, with the result that the power cord would drop about a half a volt, which is about a half a percent of line voltage. So, even if the electronics were switching between no power and 600 Watts, the voltage fluctuation at the electronics would be only about half a volt, or about half a percent. Then that "surge" has to get through the power supply step-down transformer and filter (which includes storage capacitance) to the output of the electronics.

No, the idea of a special power cord making things better doesn't pass the giggle test.

The idea of silver plating at 60 Hz produces guffaws.

For those who may not know, at 60 Hz the current uses the full cross-section of the conductor. A thin plating of silver would have a virtually unmeasurable effect on a power cord. To reduce resistance, one increases the cross-section of the conductor. Or makes the whole conductor out of silver. Or gold. Electrical Engineering 101, which I taught as a university professor in the dim past.

[mendes9]

For the record, this has been discussed many many many times in great detail, with really on a few controlled blind tests done. Also, at least one of the major magazines performed blind tests as well ( I beleive stereophile ).

The fact is that they could not reliably tell a difference ( you have a 50 50 shot). These tests have also been done with speaker wire, and amplifiers, which is beyond the scope of this thread..

Once again, final conclusion after actual controlled blind testing was done, proved that you should invest your money in the pre-amp or pre-amp processor, and your speakers.. with majority of your budget should be spent on your speakers... Expensive cords are a waste of money... but don't beleive me.. be honest with your self and do a blind best with a cheap $5 cord vs. your expensive cord and see for yourself.

[Lwang]

If we are to believe purely on spec and whatever we could measure, nobody would be buying power amps, seperate preamp or pre/proc or anything beyond the $49 CD player (or anything pass the 1st generation japanese models). Because none of those type of equipments has been shown to identifiable in a double blind test.

We'll be buying the junk-fi speakers that Consumer Report measured to be the flattest freq response. Nobody would be buying Hsu subs because it measure just like many other HT subs that maximizes SPL and/or low end response that does not believe there is any other measurement that is relevent.

FYI: One of the reasons LPs sound better than CDs because the higher frequency phase information is lost when sampling at 44KHz which degrades the sound stage. Both can have good frequency response, but an LP has better depth information in the imaging due to the higher frequency phase information. That is one of the reasons why SACDs and DVD-A sound better than CDs. (Of course the system I that heard the LPs sound better than CDs was much more expensive than I would spend, so I stuck with my CDs anyway).
Tell that to all those deaf reviewers/engineers in Stereo Review/High Fidelity that said "Perfect Sound Forever". I don't know whey they didn't just close shop instead of reviewing more and more new CD players with oversampling, dithering, digital filtering, bit shifting, etc. Now much of those cronies are recarnated under S&V and spreading disinformation and reviewing only features.

At least the audiophile rags said there was something wrong with the sound. They didn't know what was wrong, but they just didn't like much of it. And they even favored the Philips unit that had the 14 bit units. If spec readers saw that machine, they would have junked purely because of that, and happily enjoy perfect sound forever in their 16 bit no-fi Japanese players.

[Retread]

in fancy power cables? The placement coupled with the content of your post would seem to imply so.

[Dudley]

I would hope that the advantage that an HSU sub has over a circuit city sub is much greater than the diff in power cables, or cd players, or power amp vs reciever. If it is not, then it is not the sub for me. I am impressed by the ability to play cleanly down to 25 hz (stf-2) for a reasonable price. I am not impressed by unmeasurable differences between esoteric pieces of equipment. If the upgrade to an HSU sub is like an upgrade to $200 speaker wire, then I am in the wrong place.

I think these uber high end pieces have a place, but more as an artistic statement of a hobbyist than as an actual upgrade to sound quality.

[Active Speaker]

The Giggle Test

No, the idea of a special power cord making things better doesn't pass the giggle test.

The idea of silver plating at 60 Hz produces guffaws.

For those who may not know, at 60 Hz the current uses the full cross-section of the conductor. A thin plating of silver would have a virtually unmeasurable effect on a power cord. To reduce resistance, one increases the cross-section of the conductor. Or makes the whole conductor out of silver. Or gold. Electrical Engineering 101, which I taught as a university professor in the dim past.



Your giggle test?

Try not to let the fact that you were a professor in the past, and the electical engineering theory that you learned, and the subsequent snobbery that you feel you are entitled to dissuade you from maintaining an open mind to "sonic differences". If the tests you performed do not explain the improvements that I hear, either I am deluding myself or you are performing the wrong tests. It is entirely likely that different conductors and different sizes of conductors and different configurations of conductors produce an AUDIBLE difference. Or maybe there are other factors that neither of us has thought of. We're not testing the ACTUAL cord after all; neither have we conducted double blind tests. Where I become convinced that I'm not imagining things is when no less than 5 people (with NO prompting from me) spontaneously make similar extremely positive comments on the sonic improvements to my system when a) they have never done so before, & b) they had absolutely no idea that I had made any changes (one of these was my wife who I definitely didn't want to tell that I had bought one of these cables because she doesn't care about audio!). Now, I guess that I could concede that it is possible that the changes may be more pleasing and less accurate, but I've listened for a LONG time now, & I'm not going back. Maybe you're right and "the emperor has no clothes" or maybe you have spent more time studying, lecturing, researching, and teaching rather than LISTENING. I started this audio hobby exactly where you are now, but after building my own preamp and speakers, and after auditioning dozens of amps, cables, cords, interconnects, and speakers in my own home, my perspective has changed. I'm with you; I'm not entirely ready to believe in hocus-pocus, and there is certainly a law of diminishing returns in audio, but there are also some improvements that I have witnessed (many of them subtle), and this power cord is one that has made a dramatic difference. One last thing: I listen to MUSIC for at least 4 hours every day which I realize is probably not the norm, so many people would not be as excited about the improvements that the cord makes because they aren't as engaged in listening (you know, the people who think that BOSE sounds great; nothing against them).

[Lwang]

If I were an objectivist, I would not be using magnepan speakers for the last 17 years or so, since whenever someone measures it, the result always comes out not to its advantage. I would be using a $99 KLH receiver or $99 HTIB since bit is bit and watts is watts.


Lots of the rags don't like engineers (at least the purely objective ones that might or might not be from the audio field). There is usually this have to explain it objective or it doesn't exist mentality.

If all engineers were like that, then AES would be a barebone group with almost no activity, we'll be with stuck with 1st generation CD players, recording using 1st generation PCM equipments, etc.

[Retread]

I'm also a blackjack card counter and subscriber to the BJ21.com Green Chip site. There is a major segment of blackjack players who do not believe in the math and insist that various stop-loss and progression strategies are winners. For a long time the BJ21 public web site had a page titled "Voodoo Blackjack" for just such topics. The host eventually gave up and made access to the public site name/password.

There are lots of aspects of sound that are still black arts. Subwoofers is one such aspect. Then there are others that are so totally understood technically that they are cut-and-dried. 60 Hz power cables are in the later category. But those who refuse to believe the science cannot be convinced, regardless.

Out of curiosity, are there any Green Chippers on this site?

[Retread]

Your post got put between my "interesting parallels" post and the one to which I intended to respond.

Music listening is an inherently subjective matter. There's probably no such thing as "uncolored" sound. One prefers what one prefers.

However, saying that one is a subjective listener doesn't answer the question whether you actually believe that power cables make a difference in the resultant sound.

[BeFree]

The world's greatest technologist designed man with a pair of ears. No human invention will ever supercede nature's divine designs.

Without experience, suspend your judgment. If you personally haven't tried upgrading your power cords, then your opinions belong in another thread.

[mendes9]

To date, I'm not aware of a singe controlled test done by an independent group, that proved on a consistent basis they could tell between 5 dollar power cord and a $5000 dollar power cord, let's make it SOLID SILVER or Even GOLD.. I'd be willing to bet the farm you can't.. that's a FACT... Until persent day..

Active Speaker,

I'm in the Philadelphia, PA area, if you are anywhere close, I'd love to give you a blind test.

[Active Speaker]

It's too bad that I live over a thousand miles away.

Look, I'm just relating my experience with this particular power cord. If anyone is interested in whether or not I'm fabricating things or deluding myself, buy the cord, try it on your power amps, cd player or D/A converter (if you have one), or any audio component with a detachable plug and LISTEN. Better yet, change out the cord and see if you get any unsolicited remarks from other people who listen to your system regularly. At that point, if you can't hear any improvement, send them back and then let everyone here know that you couldn't notice any difference. The guy will refund your money promptly. I'm not trying to sell power cords, nor am I trying to convince those who either cannot, or won't let themselves admit that there is a difference; I'm only trying to add to the musical enjoyment of the people on this board who seem to enjoy the best possible sound in their homes as evidenced by all the questions about placement, adjustment, etc...

BTW, the power cord is more than just wire, it is higher quality, better contact connectors at both ends, as well as ferrites which block EMI/RFI at certain frequencies.

One more thing: I sure hope that you skeptics out there have all your components hooked up with lamp cord or just any old wire that you find, so that you don't waste any money.

[Dudley]

I clicked on the link, and that power cable was 10 times as much as I would consider too expensive. I was figuring it was $20 or so for what is really $5 worth of parts, but it was $230!!!

This is a 10 gauge power cord. How is it going to improve my sound when the wiring to my outlets is 14 gauge. While many houses have 12 gauge, very very few have 10 gauge. You can hook up a fire hose to your kitchen sink, but that does not mean you will get any more water out of it - same situation with the wire.

If the power cord makes so much difference, then what you really need is a seperate 10 gauge circuit from your panel to each of your audio components.

Quick poll- who would rather have a vtf-2 with a fancy power cord, or for the same price, a VTF-3. Does anybody honestly think the first combination would sound better, have deeper bass or play louder?

[Active Speaker]

If you buy it on Audiogon or Ebay, you can get one from $40 - $80.

[mendes9]

Active Speaker

I certainly respect your observation, but until I see it myself or see it indepentantly confirmed by a respected 3rd party, I just don't beleive it makes that much of a difference.

[BeFree]

I didn't believe it either until I tried it.

[david_da_kine]

Any opinions on Hoover Dam vs. nuclear power?

[mendes9]

Nuke all the way...

I'm American, I want cheap power and lot's of it..

[Ecruz]

i've been in this hobby for about 20 yrs. i've listened to many, many different amps, pre-amps, speakers, cd players etc...and i never thought cables of any kind could make a difference. then a 7 or 8 yrs ago i tried some "audiophile" interconnects between my cd payer & pre-amp, on the recommendation of a friend of mine. i figured i try them, tell him i couldn't hear a difference, end of story. well, i was amazed at the difference this $200 cable made. i was a believer. since then i've owned & compared many different interconnects, speaker cables & power cords. but thesedays i don't buy from the big manufactures, i get all my cables http://signalcable.com/ (i am in no way affiliated with this company). you've got to try it for yourself before you say it's crap.

[BeFree]

ECRUZ --

Do you have a power cord hooked up to your Hsu? If so, what difference has it made, if any?