VTF-3 Mark 2

[craigsub]

Sasha, I am new to this forum, but have over 25 years in the Audio field, mostly as a hobby (where Ilive making an actual living in audio is tough) ... I have a pair of the new VTF-3 mark 2's on order, and will be doing a comparison against an SVS PB-2 Ultra.

I fully expect both subs to be great.

A few questions...

1. How does the new "VTF-3" compare to your 1220... my guess is that it will exceed the 1220 from the low 20's on up, but the 1220 would be a bit higher in SPL capability from 20 HZ and lower...???

2. Is there any criteria you would like to see included ?

3. It will be posted on Home theater Spot, and we are planning on doing all these... max spl at 16 HZ and up, listening tests... etc...

4. Any comments/suggestion are welcome. On Home theater Spot, for example, I have been asked to compare an SVS 25-31 pc plus I already own to a single VTF-3 MK 2... Which will be done, with the same criteria as listed above.

[Rick Hilst]

You're walking into a minefield (you're not the first). Any comparison of Hsu with SVS with the slightest hint of bias will result in lots of flame-throwing when the results are published.

Since you already own an SVS sub (and therefore will be assumed to be pro-SVS), the only result you could come up with that would hold credibility with the Hsu owners/backers (or, for that matter, with anyone who objectively analyzes your results) would be one in which the Hsu sub came out on top. Otherwise, it will be presumed that your bias towards SVS impacted your results (particularly on anything that is qualitative, like listening tests, versus quantitative (which should be reproducible)).

Being completely unbiased is one of the criteria for believability in these types of comparisons.

[craigsub]

Rick, While I appreciate your concerns, anyone who decides, regardless the outcome of this, that I am biased, decided that without reading both the reviews and my current posts.

1. I am purchasing a pair of VTF-3 Mark 2 for this review, so I will own subs from both companies. Thus, "pride of ownership" is not an issue. I also plan on keeping both the HSU and the SVS subs... permanently.

2. I am purchasing the PB-2 Ultra through normal channels

3. Both companies have been notified about this and asked for input. I am purchasing both "set-ups" with no assistance nor preferential treatment.

So far, I have had roughly 50 responses, either open posts or via private mail, with encouraging talk and people looking forward to this comparison. Two have suggested I will be accused of bias, and one has recanted that, hopefully before this is done, you will look at this and decide it was worthwhile and fair.

In YOUR defense, YOU have not said it will be biased, you said OTHERS think it will be. So I ask : Do YOU think this will be biased ?

What I am looking for hear is real input as to the criteria, measuring methodology, music and DVD's... etc... any and all suggestions would be appreciated.

For example, Dr. Hsu's preferred position for the HSU subs will be used...

Let's keep this fun ... that is the whole reason for doing this...

[cschang]

Hey Craig,

Eventhough Dr. Hsu has a preferred sub position, I think it would be interesting to move all the subs around to viable locations in your room. But only if your back can handle it. :D

[craigsub]

Curtis... Moving the HSU's will be rough enough... the SVS weighs 190 pounds... Yikes ! There is somthing to be said for stcking subs...lol... moving two 80 pound somethings is ok.... but 190 pounds ???? I think once the best spot is found, the subs will stay there. Except... I may also take the HSU's to my basement stereo room for some comparisons to the SVS (hey, is saying that name allowed here ? ...lol) Cylinders ... I can pretty easily handle an 82 pound sub... Twenty years ago, the 190 pounds would have been ok...

This is getting good... what if the subs like each other ? Will this be an audio West Side Story ?

I did put a single SVS cylinder where Dr. Hsu suggested I put the VTF-3/2 ... and it sounds worlds better there versus the old spot ! The man knows his stuff...

OK GUYS ... Where is the feedback ?

[Rick Hilst]

Since I currently don't own either sub, I am open-minded and, in fact, interested in the results.

Keeping both subs does answer some of the bias question (presuming you do keep both). My concern about bias is that I have read many comparisons of subs/speakers in the last seven months and I have yet to read one where a person who was happy with his sub/speakers (exception being his current sub/speakers are old) came out in favor of the other following the comparison. In other words, I think it is really hard not to be biased, particularly on qualitative things. This is not a judgment of you, just a generalization.

To a certain extent you are comparing apples and oranges. I believe the PC-Ultra is several hundred dollars more than the MK2. A more price competitive comparison would be the PB2-ISD or the PC plus you already own.

I am very interested in what the MK2 can do. Personally, I would rather see it compared to the PB2-ISD since that is more in my price range (and I'm looking for a box sub - PC+ is cylinder).

BTW, I think everybody wants these comparisons to be done as long as their choice wins (unless they're in the market and are just interested in the comparison). The flame-throwing will arise when the product they wanted to win comes up short.

As far as the tests that are to be performed, can you specify what tests you've already defined? Also, what measuring equipment are you using for these tests? Who else will be involved and what kind of sub do they currently own? How are you going to weigh each test in order to determine the overall winner?

[tdekany]

I have never purchased an audio product that was recommended by Stereophile that I didn't ""LOVE""

That is how I learned about Hsu Research. Once I have learned more about the MAN behind these awesome subs, I was sold for life!

Personally I don't care for SVS - to me they are obviously copy cats.

As you were saying ""the man knows his stuff"" - I will always support Dr Hsu's work.

So I am not interested in such compareson. What else do Hsu subs have to prove? Nothing!

I'd like to see how any Hsu sub compare to top priced subs though. That would be interesting to me.

Good luck to you.

Thomas

[cschang]

The "fairest" apple to apple comparison would be the $600 box sub....each company has one in that category. The STF-3 and the PB1-ISD.

[craigsub]

Thomas... I like the fact you admire the MAN... from what I have seen, and heard, Dr. Hsu is not only an excellent engineer, he is also a pioneer in the industry. One item I hve posted several times, without him, there may not BE an SVS...

That being said... Ford Motor Company, without doubt, totally revolutionized the auto industry. The Japanese copied Henry Ford's assembly line. Does that mean Honda, Toyota, and Nissan should be discredited ?

And in audio terms, Dr. Hsu's subs are a derivative of Electrovoice's designs utilizing the Theil/Small parameters from the 1960's. If you need proof, when E/V was getting a flat 20 HZ from a single 12 inch bass driver in the late 70's (you can look this up, the speaker was the Electrovoice Interface D) ... It took JBL two 18 inch bass drivers to match the E/V design...

And to take matters further... If the cylinder design should be totally given to HSU, then any box speaker after the original A/R designs from the 50's is also a copycat, and to be ignored.

One CAN admire a work (ie... Dr. Hsu's) without admonishing the work of other companies.

Here is an open question... Since 1999, Have the sales of HSU gone down, or up ? If anything, I think SVS, like them or not, has increased the credibility of Hsu... just as it ,again, is unlikely SVS would have been a success (at least this fast) without a company like HSU in the first place.

What HSU started in 1991, and SVS enhanced in 1999 was the idea of putting out a product which would cost 2, 3... maybe 10 times as much through a B&M store...

Regards...

[tdekany]

The Japanese copied Henry Ford's assembly line. Does that mean Honda, Toyota, and Nissan should be discredited ?

No, because they made them better. That is not the case with SVS. But that is besides the point.

I just felt like giving credit to Hsu Research. He really is a unique human being although I don't know him personally. Have spoken with him many times over the years.

That reminds me - try the Ventriloquists. Unbelievable performance!!!!!!

They need to be heard - if you care about your readers, let them know about another fantastic product.

I can't wait for his larger speakers to come out.

[craigsub]

Rick, You never answered my question as to whether you thought I would be biased...

If you read my review from audioreview.com (also posted, with my permission, on SVS's site) , you would know it started with me thinking my then current pair of Velodyne FSR-18's would easily "beat" a pair of SVS 25-31 pc plus.

But since the approach taken was objective, the SVS walked away easily as the better of the two.

I also have been asked, and have gladly agreed to, a one on one comparison between a single VTF-3 Sereies 2, and an SVS 25-31 pc- plus.

As far as the difference in prices between two VTF-3 and a single PB-2 Ultra... it is $700... if one goes with the "R" version of the HSU, it is about $370...

What is the real wood on the SVS worth ? Hard to say...

But for fun, let's say the HSU and SVS are identical in SPL and in the "subjective" sound... then the question... is the SVS worth the custom finish ?

Now... let's say I find the Hsu is FAR AHEAD of the SVS... will I then still be biased ?

I ask you again... Do YOU think I will be biased ?

And one personal note... I have said I am keeping both sets of subs... I mean that. You presuming comment was not called for. got it ?

[craigsub]

Thomas, First... It is an opinion that as private companies, Toyota... etal made them better. Give Ford, or GM the government help that the Japanese give their car companies ( a Camry is about 1/2 here what it is in Japan, their industry is subsidized like no other in the world) ... it also took about 60 years before they got close...

NOW... I also admire Dr. Hsu... and his accomplishments... and have done considerable research on both company's designs...

so tell me... dealing factually, what did SVS copy ?

[craigsub]

Rick, regarding the "who wins department", the objective criteria will be the max ouput from each sub, from the same location ( the HSU will be stacked) from 2 meters. 16 HZ, 25 Hz, 31.5 Hz, 40 Hz, and 50 HZ...

Subjectively, a lot of music and movies will be watched and listened to.

YOU might want to wander over to Home Theater Spot and read some of the dozens of posts already...

We are figuring this to be a very close competition.

I have even stated "I don't think there will be a loser, other than B&M store selling subs for 2,3 even 10 times the price"

I have also asked for some suggestions... for this test... do you have any ?

Oh... and read the last paragraph of my original post, then match it up with the "apples and oranges comment"


:D

This is subwoofer stuff... not open heart surgery...

[tdekany]

Originally posted by craigsub
Thomas, First... It is an opinion that as private companies, Toyota... etal made them better. Give Ford, or GM the government help that the Japanese give their car companies ( a Camry is about 1/2 here what it is in Japan, their industry is subsidized like no other in the world) ... it also took about 60 years before they got close...

NOW... I also admire Dr. Hsu... and his accomplishments... and have done considerable research on both company's designs...

so tell me... dealing factually, what did SVS copy ?


As far as the car comparison - more money or not - both corporations should be ashamed of the kind of products they are putting out. Quality, fit and finish?
How about this one: SATURN! Cheesy Louisy!! What a peice of junk to spend $5 BILLION on.

As far as SVS, I will not comment here. The space here is for Hsu products.
I am not giving you a chance to take it over the top if you know what I mean.

Lets just say that I don't know what I am talking about and they are really cutting edge when it comes to design and part selection.

Have a good weekend.

[craigsub]

Thomas...

I have been in the auto industry since 1982... I loathe Saturn. It is a terrible car. Always has been. Drive a Ford Focus then a Civic... tough call. I work with every manufacturer in the auto industry, handling finance... and see every car out there. If you want to go toe to toe on cars (bring it on)... I can tell you I own a 2003 911 and a 2004 Corvette... if I could only keep one... the Vette would still be there. 10 years ago it would have been the 911.

You are right... this is an HSU sight. I asked for tips on HSU. Ideas. With the hope of being better prepared for getting my new HSU's. Thus far I have been given grief.

There are some people who think, like Rick, that a box sub will sound different than a cylinder sub with the same amp and driver. Dr. Hsu does not. Nor does SVS. They both think there sub lines have a similar sound, with different levels of capability. For example... a VTF-2 and 3 sound similar, but the 3 goes louder and deeper. Same with the VTF-3 to the 1220...

Therefore, and SVS cylinder sub and an HSU Box sub, price to price, is a good comparison.

You do not need to be insulting. I did not come here to prove that any sub was better than another. I believe that the HSU is a great design, and that I will have three terrific subs. You say you know what you are talking about. When did I suggest oterhwise ?

As for your "over the top" remark, I do not know what you mean. Perhaps you can elaborate. Exactly what agenda do you think I have ?

[Michael Bain]

Craig sub,

Many of us on this forum have done much research, in addition to blind listening tests using different subwoofers (SVS included obviously), and after all these tests we were even more convinced that Hsu was the performance/price leader. That's what led us here, and that's what keeps us here, it is as simple as that.

Trying to act in SVS's defense at this place is a losing battle, unfortunately. We are naturally partial to Hsu here. I feel that any truly unbiased person would agree that there are several Hsu design ideas or elements that were copied or mimic'd by SVS. How about: tall cylinders with 12 inch drivers and 4 inch diameter port, variable tuning, textured black finish on the box subwoofers, external bracing to name a few. Whether this was right or wrong is beside the point, because Hsu did not have any patents on the design. It is still undeniable that several ideas about design were incorporated by them based on ideas stemming from Hsu Research. What SVS actually exploited the most was Hsu's poor marketing skills. Hsu has always been extremely brilliant with his designs, but he's never been a very aggressive or savvy marketer, and other companies were able to take full advantage of this. Again, whether this was right or wrong is beside the point, but it happened anyway and this is history that Hsu regulars don't forget.

What most people on this forum really appreciate about Hsu is twofold. First, Dr. Hsu's vast knowledge and ability to squeeze awesome performance out of relatively inexpensive and relatively small subwoofers. Second, Dr. Hsu's very humble nature. This is at times rare to see from someone in his position, and we all find it very refreshing.

[Michael Bain]

Craig sub,

I believe that many people like Rick Hilst are just warning you right now about the potential complications in giving such a "shootout" review. I can give more potential issues:

1- Measuring SPL levels is much tricker than most people realize. Even the most seasoned reviewers get different measurements each time. If you accidently shift your position even a few cm, measurements can change very rapidly.

2- SPL level differences are difficult to convey without taking distortion measurements at different frequencies. The two work hand in hand.

3- The introduction of variable tuning makes any potential shootout a situation with many extra variables. For a more equalized comparison, one needs to compare tuning modes based not on projected point of tune, but based on actual frequency response in each respective mode. For instance, the VTF-3 original version can be tuned higher when all port plugs are removed and is spec'd at 22Hz, but it actually achieves a frequency response essentially flat down to 20Hz in this tuning mode.

4- Blind listening tests should be performed, preferrably using a third party to perform the test who has no prior affiliation or connection with either of the companies or the products. A wide variety of music and movie material should be used, and ideally several impartial third party listeners should be included in the test.

5- The subwoofers need to be placed in essentially the same position when evaluated. Moving the subwoofers even a few inches apart can have measureable and sonic impact. A problem arises with dual subwoofers: does one stack them, or set them side by side? This needs to be experimented with and thought out.

6- Subwoofer crossover settings should be equalized, to help level the playing field.

7- Each subwoofer needs to be thoroughly broken in and calibrated, which goes almost without saying.

Potential issues people will have with this "shootout":

1- Dual VTF-3 MKII subwoofers that are priced at $1398 shipped are being compared to a single large PB2-Ultra subwoofer that is priced at $2300+$100 shipping. This makes a $1000 difference in price. If two VTF-3's are purchased in high gloss piano black (which is usually considered a high quality premium finish), there will be an $800 difference in price, and if two VTF-3's are purchased in rosewood finish, there will be a $600 difference in price. What this really means is that the reviewer is forced to place a potential value on cabinet finish, which is not really realistic or reasonable with these large price differences and given the already high quality of the Hsu finishes in the first place.
2- The reviewer is a very vocal supporter of SVS subs on the internet and owns several of them, and there is no way to verify the impartiality of the reviewer or any of the test subjects. Deciding to purchase a second manufacturer's product will not make someone impartial, although it may help reduce some impartiality.
3- Different subwoofers may achieve optimal sonic results when used with a different set of system settings. This means that the equalized test settings may be different from the actual preferred settings for each product.
4- Dual VTF-3's will generally only improve on one VTF-3 with respect to maximum SPL levels, as sound quality and frequency response should not significantly change. Dual VTF-3's are also more tricky to set up, position, and test than a single VTF-3. Almost all pro reviewers test single subwoofers because of these very reasons.
5- Maximum desired SPL levels are dependent on room size and preferred listening levels. Most people are more than satisfied with the output from a single VTF-3 tuned for maximum extension. The addition of a second VTF-3 would almost be redundant in these situations because the extra SPL is not needed/desired and the sound quality and frequency response should not significantly change.

There is no simple way in getting around these facts above, and these are all some reasons why a shootout will rarely be comprehensive and will rarely satisfy all parties. All you can really safely do is enjoy the products for what they are worth.

[craigsub]

Michael, I am not sure where to start. I do know that noone here has bothered to read my posts on other sites, but I will try to answer some concerns...

1. My brother and two partners manufacturer pro-audio loudspeakers, including subwoofers. They have available extensive hardware/software for doing spl tests, and also make sure they utilize identical locales for each speaker they test/compare. The software used can handle SPL's of up to 140 DB.... and distortion levels to .001 % (possibly more... I think they limit it to that). They will do the measuring.

2. I am not a defender of SVS. I asked a simple question. Factually, What has SVS "copied". I asked for a reason, I wanted an answer. The one area I will agree is on the "long tube" design. Twelve inch woofers, bandpass designs... etc... have been around for over 30 years. But the design Dr. Hsu used is great, though I was selling tube subwoofers for cars while in college.... I graduated in 1982.... Dr. Hsu DID make the first volume produced for the home. I have applauded that many times. But based on your logic, No other company should have had credibility for a two or three way, acoustic suspension design
after A/R did theirs...Or if you look at Electrovoice's late 70's designs, they were 6th order bandpass bass, 12 inch drivers, a built in equalizer to extend the deep bass with the option of closing a port for deeper bass IN 1978. I owned AND sold them... Great speakers.

3. As far as the rest of what you wrote, without sounding arrogant, you are right, but there is nothing there I did not already know. Good stuff, but no tips...oh well. That is your call. But I was hoping for some encouragement and ideas about how to make the HSU's the best that I could.

4. I can tell you that about 16 months ago, after owning a pair of Velodyne FSR-18's for three years, I did the same type of shootout ... Velodyne VS SVS... I posted the review on audioreview, and SVS asked permission to use it. In that test I clearly stated up front, to SVS and on a couple of forums, that this would not likely be a fair test. A whole bunch of SVS owners answered then, all with either encouragement or advice. I thought the Velodynes would be far superior, and was surprised and happy to discover otherwise. Based on your idea that my previous ownership of Velodynes would skew my objectivity, how did THAT happen ?

So... I will ask again, Are there ANY HSU owners that would like to have a FRIENDLY CHAT about what I can expect in the areas of performance ? I would love to hear from you.

Lighten up guys... as Audiocircle.com says....

[cschang]

Guys,

Let Craig do his things with the subs, and post his findings. We can then beat up on him afterwards. :D

I'm looking forward to what his findings.

[Michael Bain]

Craig sub,

1- Having this software available is fine. There are still potential issues. One still needs to use extreme caution that the SPL meter remains in the exact same spot. One needs to decide whether testing will use a pre-set distortion limit. One needs to decide how far away from the subwoofer to position the meter. One needs to decide if different measurements will be taken with the meter purposely set at different positions (as one particular position may not always best highlight any particular product). Finally, no matter what happens, many people are always going to put much more stock into measurements done by the reputed pro reviewers.

2- You were obviously defending SVS, there is no question about it. This is not unexpected. I never said anything about credibility of any company, I merely stated facts about what design ideas and elements were directly or indirectly incorporated in SVS designs from Hsu Research designs. These facts are hardly debateable. One thing I forgot was the production of cylinder subs for the masses sold using the factory direct model. Obviously the former part is not unique to Hsu Research, but when you combine all the elements the similarities are striking. Hsu Research was in a very unique situation in the subwoofer marketplace, and SVS obviously took full advantage of that fact. I am not debating whether this is right or wrong, but merely the fact that it happened.

3- It is almost impossible to define what is the ideal setup for each and every individual. Since a discussion involving audio is at times largely non-objective (as people have different listening tastes and different preference), there is generally no very obvious way to achieve the ultimate setup. Honestly, for most non-pro reviews and especially shootouts, I would not feel entirely secure unless I knew Dr. Hsu was able to personally tweak, position, and set up the system himself. This is perhaps not realistic though, but seeking his input on all setup elements is a smart and wise move.

4- I can't vouch for your past history, unfortunately. The FSR-18 is a very old unit (and quite a few advancements in subwoofer technology tend to happen over the years), and the Velodyne sound is not necessarily what works for everyone. The servo feedback system tends to restrict or clamp down on output in an effort to keep distortion at very low levels, and this can reduce some impact of instruments like kick drum. Dr. Hsu has spoken about this in the past, many years ago.

There are quite a few ways that any review can be skewed or be potentially problematic. Imagine what SVS owners would say if someone decided to do a shootout of 4 VTF-3MKII's in matte black finish or 4 VTF-3MKII's in piano black high gloss finish, vs a single PB2-Ultra in wood finish. Maximum SPL tests and frequency response tests highlighted. Now the difference in price would be $400-$800 in the other direction, and you can be very sure that SVS fans would not be very pleased. It works both ways.

Since the VTF-3MKII is a brand new model that has not started shipping yet, no one outside the inner circle of Hsu Research has had a chance to listen to (let alone test) any of the MKII products. This is most likely the main deterrent to any truly accurate depiction of the product. We would love to talk more, but all we can really say is that performance and finish should be improved over the prior version, and that the people at Hsu Research have been pretty tight lipped about the upcoming products in general.

I am not trying to be a hard-a$$, I am trying to warn you up front of some of the potential issues in this shootout, and really any shootout in general. Consider this to be constructive criticism. A very thorough subwoofer review can be a daunting task, and often even the most seasoned reviewers are not able to do full justice to the product in their reviews.

[craigsub]

Michael, The distances from the subs will be exact. That is quite easy to do. As far as what maximum distortion figures we should allow, the purpose of posting this in the first place was to get feedback from guys like you. What do YOU think the limits should be ? What criteria do you think should be used. I was thinking about measuring a single VTF-3 Mk 2... In most situations, a stacked pair would then have 6 db more output. But we may also want to measure as a stacked pair. I am looking for opinions on what should be done.

I am trying to get some interaction, and have some fun.

Or is fun not allowed here ?

Regarding whether I was defending SVS, you are 100 % wrong. I have stated :
1. "Without HSU, there likely would not BE an SVS"
2. "I expect this to be a very close contest"
3. "When I am done, I doubt anyone will have changed his/her mind"

I will make you a deal... go find anywhere that you can quote me that I show a preference for SVS over HSU, and I will apologize... until then... stick to facts, ok ?

For the heck of it, and to keep things simple... Let's say the HSU manages 112 DB at 20 HZ, and the SVS can do 120 db....and both are under 5 % distortion... but that was for a single HSU, We could figure a pair of the HSU should "hit" 118 db.

Using the stacked pair at only 2 db less than the single SVS for 58 % of the cost... I would call the HSU one great value at that.

At that point I would also give my opinion on the sound qualities using a variety of material.

For the subjective, listening portion, I will be using the list of DVD's and Cd's that Dr. Hsu recommends... It will still be an opinion.

In my research, I read the ecoustics test comparing the SVS, HSU and Axiom subs... One area I already disagree with the reviewer... His complaint about the shortcomings of the HSU manual. I downloaded the VTF-3 manual, and think it is at least as well written as the SVS... PLUS it has that very well thought out list of discs... The reviewer in this case preferred the SVS... but he also made what I think is a totally wrong statement regarding the manual (so was he off base about the subs as well ?)... Oh hang on, I forgot, I am biased... right ?

If I had a "dream" ending to this... It would be to find the HSU could handle 122 db at 16 HZ, sounded better than anything I ever heard... and still cost only $699... Of course, I would also like free beer and no income tax....( for those of you who did not recognize it... that was a joke).

I will ask again... Does anyone want to add anything positive ? Share some thoughts as to what you would like to see ?

Regards -

[Ddavidson]

Craig sub the problem is obvious to those who follow the main internet audio forums. It's the same reason why I did not post my findings about my Svs vs Hsu tests on any forum. Far too much heat comes from comparing these two brands, because no matter what the result or how good you test them .... the end result is that your either going to upset one group or the other.

Even a head to head review from Tom Nousaine would be drawn into question when a winner was announced. Now think hard here, ........ if a subwoofer review from Tom Nousaine is questioned and gets the forum's blood boiling ....... then imagine what your findings will do - you guessed it "ZIP" except you will (from one side or the other) be called a flat out liar and a fabricator of the real truth. It's a total waste of time telling people what "you think" because you are "no one" worth mentioning especially to the loosing brands owner/s.

Tom Nousaine has some chance at least of getting his findings taken as serious, but you might as well step out into the middle of the 405 in peak hour for all it will mean to the average Hsu or Svs loosing owner.

Look over the past two years I have had at least 6 different Svs models in the same room as the original VTF-2 / VTF-3 - along with my Tn1220 and HRSW12Va. But I certainly am not interested in publicly writing a review on my findings because its a ticket to absolutely nowhere. I only ever did it because I wanted the best sounding subwoofer and I hate making purchasing mistakes. Take my health advice if you want to do the right thing I would not post that Hsu is better over at HTF...... and I would not post Svs is better on this forum. Any thread on the AVS forum about Svs vs Hsu just about automatically gets shut down ..... so your back over to Audioreview where in all honesty who cares what's said because no one knows who is posting in that mess.

Anyone who is serious about finding the best will pay the shipping money and get them both over to listen in their own room/system, just as I have done in the past. Your ears don't have other motives and are totally trustworthy unlike some unknown internet poster saying he's been there and done that so trust me. It's just a receipt for doubt and in the end grave anger. Just not worthy of anyone's time.

Ddavidson

[Michael Bain]

Craig sub,

I wish we could lay out a clear cut plan for subwoofer review, but it is much easier said than done, and we are not pro reviewers. All I can tell you is how some pro reviewers measure. Nousaine measures using a 10% limit on distortion. Ferstler measures using subjective limits on distortion. Hardesty has his own methods. Same with Keele, Aczel, and Deutsch. Each test frequency response in different ways. There is no standardization.

When I said you were defending SVS, I was talking about being defensive about the notion that they have copied or mimic'd design elements from Hsu Research. I gave several very clear examples and facts to support this. That is all, don't read too much into it.

The ecoustics review was obviously done in poor taste, with very little in-depth discussion about anything really. If the reviewer judges hip hop music and home theater explosions to be the primary criteria for judging subwoofer performance, then fine but this is not very typical. The Hsu manual at that time was not in the same form or shape as what we see today, and much more spartan in comparison. So if there was anything that Hsu could take out of that review, it was the suggestion for improving the manual.

I can't vouch for whether or not you are truly biased or unbiased, and to what degree. I am just warning you that this is a potential issue that people can and will use against you if they are not satisfied with the results. That is why blind/double blind listening tests are recommended, using 3rd party test candidates who have no prior experience with either product.

The positive spin we can add is that Hsu owners tend to be very very satisfied with their purchase when all is said and done, especially for the price that they pay. All the SPL tests and frequency response tests in the world don't mean a thing when someone is relaxing and enjoying their favorite music at home.

[tdekany]

Craigsub - if you really want to get the best out of each sub, shouldn't you be contacting Dr Hsu and the designer of the other sub? Other then that - I didn't mean to upset your ego. I wish you good luck with the tests, but as Michael suggests: the only way to really test them is - Blind listening tests should be performed, preferrably using a third party to perform the test who has no prior affiliation or connection with either of the companies or the products.
Either way I am very happy with Hsu and regardless of what you end up finding, I will stick with what I have.

[craigsub]

Tom, This thread was opened as a letter to Sasha, with the hopes of making a couple of friends here. I have also sent and received (they were quite helpful) e-mails from the owners of both companies. As far as your comment regarding my "ego", I will consider the source, and ignore it. Have a nice night.

[tdekany]

I will consider the source, and ignore it. Have a nice night

thanks very much.

[craigsub]

To DDavidson... Thanks for your advice, you were right, thinking I could make friends and get any kind of helpful responses here was a waste of time. My further posts will be on the HSU forum on Home Theater Spot.

Regards

[Michael Bain]

I would have thought that a large list of things to consider in a shootout, potential issues regarding a shootout, ways to make the test more impartial, different methods used by pro reviewers, etc would have been somewhat helpful. Well, at least I can say that I tried.

We are very honest and analytical at this forum (as opposed to a group who just pat each other on the back for our purchases). We are also at times both Hsu's biggest supporters and his harshest critics. I consider this forum to be the best source of accurate and analytical information about Hsu products on the internet, for what it's worth.

[craigsub]

Michael :

Bias - " A prepossessed viewpoint of an object or idea" You discuss all your ideas as mere facts. And mine as likely biased. I would stipulate what we both think are opinions.

It is amazing, after reading all the posts on all the sites, how anybody could say that I am biased, Because that means I have already decided a winner (if there even IS one)...If one looks at what I have been told we can make these conclusions:

A. There is no way any criteria would be sufficient for the regulars on this forum. If even Thomas Noussaine's measuring is not good enough, how can anyone else's ?

B. It was presumed (meaning bias) that neither I nor the guys who would be doing the measuring would understand that the distance from the sub would have to be equal and exact. One of the "pro-reviewers" (John E. Johnston) does not do this, but we routinely do. We measure withing 1/8 inch.

C. When I am asked something, and answer, another complaint is made. Will I measure distortion ? Yes, to within .001 %. Oh... Then You must establish ahead of time what you think is a good figure for the max distortion for a certain SPL. Ok, let us use 5 %. Since I am buying these subs, I really do not wish to blow them up. That being said, what if a sub could have put out, at say, 25 hz, 4 db more at 6 %. Would that not then qualify ? Setting arbitrary numbers "up front" may not be the best idea. But since you asked for it... 5 % it shall be.

D. You mention that I have a pro-svs review. Which suggests you actually read it. You should also know we used the same software then that we will now. A fair question "How many subs have you measured ? " ... Answer, over 100.

E. I have posted many times it would be nice to see this as somewhat interactive. If we put some findings into print, and there is a concern, let us know, and we will see what can be done to "fix" it.

F. I have also posted my main goal is to see what each sub can do. How to get the most performance from it. I thought it would be worthwhile for someone to know how close the VTF-3 is to a sub 4 times the price. I came here looking for help doing just that.

G. You mention this : What if we used 4 VTF-3's against a single 2-ultra... ok... this is pretty basic stuff. 4 VTF-3's would have 12 DB more maximum output than would a single, assuming they were stacked. Matching up the subjective "value" of the subs can be done once we gather data. You see, I was hoping I would get some guys that thought this would be fun. That taking info, digesting it, then getting more info, would also be helpful.

What I have been treated to on this site is people who want to fight. (According to you) I am biased because I own SVS. I tell you about the Velodynes, and the fact I WAS biased toward them, but still walked away from that idea after learning something. But that does not mean anything because the Velodynes are old. Your words.

You see, it does not matter what I say. I am not one of "you guys". You have not shown any interest in being objective, nor friendly.

Instead you are condescending "We are analytical...not patting each other on the back over our purchase".

That was a Dale Carnegie moment.

If you and anyone else on this forum would care to put together a simple list of what you would like to "see" done on these subs, and how we test them, I would welcome it. If not, fine.

After this whole process is done, Any and all opinions and questions will be welcome, especially from those who participated.

But to decide we cannot do justice to this beforehand is showing a severe.... bias

Regards

[Ddavidson]

We are also at times both Hsu's biggest supporters and his harshest critics.
The few key word's here are this being a "Hsu web site" and Hsu being the people "paying the bill" for delivering a forum to talk about "Hsu products". This first and foremost should be a support forum for owners, then an information center for potential owners and as a promotional vehicle for future/existing/previous products.

The last thing this place should be is a place to promote other brands.

I think we all have seen enough forum grandstanding by certain brands that monitor and search for any mention in any thread of the words

"sub" or
"bass" or
"subwoofer"

All just so they can see if they can jump into the thread and promote and hype up their product/s. No one is saying anything here but the fact that ........ this site is dedicated to Hsu and not any other brand of competing product. It's meant to be two eyes for the Hsu guy .... not one eye elsewhere.

I think many of us criticize Hsu for it deficiencies when called for, but we also know the limits on this forum because of where we are. I think all brands need their own forum, because the main forums get way heated over self promotion, and it more than obvious that a handful of brands are self promoting juggernaughts on most main forums.

I think there are at least 4 or 5 main offenders who must be financially gaining from pushing the boundries on these main forums. Some forum owners are obviously letting them loose because quite obviously they are not being pulling them up ..... even when its very blatent that its marketing not support. The thread just recently that got shut down on AVS (not involving Hsu) was a great example of two owners (manufacturers) going on about pure banter while having a ball self promotiong themselves. It was quite funny to read how they tried so hard to be nice to each other yet keep their chests puffed out the biggest because they never had their biggest best amp or driver in when they got measured at 115dB (at heaven knows what freq).

It was all just "frog poop" and you soon notice that there is not a mention of sound quality or the use of music in this banter. It's all about who can whip out the biggest number from their a_s.

It's only ever about how many dB when the world explodes or when an M16 go's off. That's how they measure a subwoofer's worth. Boy glad I have a little more to my testing than just that.

Ddavidson

[Michael Bain]

Craig sub,

Maybe you misinterpreted something I had said earlier. I said that I have no way of knowing to what degree that you are biased or not biased. To be realistic though, any owner of several of one manufacturer's subs will be biased to a certain degree, and people can and will use that against you if they do not agree with your future findings. It would be no different if the reverse situation was true and someone owned several Hsu's. That's all I was trying to say about bias and effect of bias. The important thing is to try to reduce any element of bias as much as possible. This means equalizing the test conditions as much as possible. The tuning modes tested should have roughly equivalent frequency responses and not just equal projected tuning points (remember that a VTF-3 in maximum output mode is spec'd at 22Hz but actually extends flat in frequency response to 20Hz and even lower), equalize the crossover settings, etc. Some potential testing solutions include blind listening tests and tests conducted by third party candidates who have no listening experience with either product.

If you want a great opinion on what are ideal testing conditions (SPL meter distance from sub, distortion limits, frequency response testing, etc), than I suggest talking directly with Dr. Hsu. He has obviously done much more in-depth testing than anyone else here.

The issue of testing one, two, three, four subwoofers really depends on how loud the listening levels are and how large the room is. While sound quality up to a certain threshold should essentially be the same between one VTF-3 and two VTF-3's, at super high SPL levels the two VTF-3's will naturally sound cleaner and more capable than a single VTF-3. The best advice here is to only add extra woofage if desired. It should be noted that in a shootout, most people on the internet are mainly only concerned with maximum SPL levels. A test showing data with 4x subs for maximum SPL will look much better on paper than a test showing a single sub tested for maximum SPL, if the data is reported as such. A conversion factor of 6-12db's for two or four subs can be used as you mentioned, but not everyone uses these factors when putting together a data list (the list of data posted by TN is a prime example of that).

I am definitely not trying to be argumentative here. I believe that my arguments have been very precise and well defined, and the potential issues are very real and valid. I still have not gotten a good answer on how to best match tuning modes, and how to account for the fact that one product has a parametric eq installed.

The information I gave you on Velodyne is very realistic. Subwoofer technology does move forward quite a bit over a few years time span, and Velodyne servo feedback is not preferred by everyone (including Dr. Hsu) because they tend to clamp down on the input signal, although I will admit that Velodyne's low distortion measurements are generally quite impressive.

I am not being condescending, I am being realistic. All too often you see people on the internet patting each other on the back for making a subwoofer purchase, and this type of behavior is rarely exhibited here.

If you want to be accepted here, than be open-minded about what some of us have to say, and don't by any means assume that we are not sincere and honest in our responses. There is really no reason to get defensive here, as it is a friendly place to talk about Hsu products, so just think very carefully about some of the more subtle issues that we have pointed out today.

[craigsub]

Michael, I came on this site as a new HSU sub purchaser. I asked for some help with getting the best possible performance from the subs I had ordered. What I have gotten is a lecture in methodology. I did ask for suggestions, and I welcome suggestions. Since this seems tough to grasp, here is an example :

Craig, We would like to see the VTF-3/2 tested in max extension mode from 18 HZ to 63 Hz at no more than 3 % distortion.

and... You should measure the sub from one meter.

etc...

I asked for this so noone would think I had set arbritary "rules" ...

OH - And I took some time and read through a few dozen posts ... it is ironic that you tell me you really cannot and have not discussed the MK 2's ... yet there is a thread where you, Tom, etc... have 39 posts about the STF-3/VTF- 3/2's...

Is this getting any clearer ?

Regards -

[Michael Bain]

Craig sub,

Anytime someone proposes a shootout against a competing manufacturers product, testing methodology and potential issues need to be addressed immediately. This is fundamentally critical in shaping the overall test results. A fair test will generally try to equalize test conditions and variables, and blind testing and third party testers is a step in the right direction towards producing an impartial result. You ask what we want? We want a test that is conducted as fairly and as impartially as possible, equalizing variables as much as possible.

Realize that there is no standardized method of testing a subwoofer, and even among pro reviewers the variance is significant. Dr. Hsu would be the one to talk to if you wanted to get a good idea on how best to set up a methodology for this review.

Where did anyone in this thread imply that the VTF-3MKII should not or cannot be discussed because they are new models? What I actually said was that the only truly accurate depiction of these products would be from the inner circle at Hsu Research, of course. The most obvious change from the VTF-3 is the amp. Hsu has been pretty tight lipped about the new models in general.

[tdekany]

I did ask for suggestions, and I welcome suggestions.

Craig - with all due respect, if your only intention is to get the best out of a Hsu sub - don't you think that the best place is to go and ask Dr Hsu? You don't need anyone here to help you. As a matter of fact you seems to have more experience then anybody here. All you need is the designer of the sub.

So I suggest that you give the Dr a call (he will call you back if he is out of the office), or e mail him. He is a wealth of information as you well know.

[craigsub]

I have e-mailed Dr. Hsu, and we have talked via e-mail. In fact, as I have posted on the HTS, I have already made changes to my room based on his recommendations. If you go to the origin of this post, it was an open letter to Sasha. Having input from others is a good thing, too.

What I am dismayed about, gentlemen, is simple. I have asked for input as to what the methods should be for this test. Perhaps plainer language will help, and will stop this confusion.

I would like for the people that frequent this forum to tell me how YOU want this test conducted. and be specific. Here are some ideas...

1. Max SPL's
2. Distortion levels
3. Single or Stacked subs
4. Lowest bass "shelf"
5. subjective listening
6. Room placement
7. Ports blocked or unblocked
8. etc.....etc... think about what you would like to see, and stop worrying about whether there is a bias or poor methodology.

Let's say I had posted that I had 11 fixed criteria... Can you imagine the reaction to that ?

I can also tell you the plan was to post some results for discussion. For example... Let's say the "3's" did not seem to be going as "deep" in the bass... perhaps we move them.

Now some of this stuff has been so obvious (ie... same crossover settings, same distance from each sub ... etc..) that I would not think it needed discussed. Suffice it to say... Both subs will be tested under identical conditions. OK ?

[cschang]

1. Max SPL's - Not that big of deal to me. Both will be more than I think I will ever need. I am not a drag racer.
2. Distortion levels - yeah
3. Single or Stacked subs - both
4. Lowest bass "shelf" - yup
5. subjective listening - ofcourse. Articulation, punch, attack...and ofcourse boom boom.
6. Room placement
7. Ports blocked or unblocked - remember, the Hsu also has the EQ switch for when in single or dual port tune.
8. etc.....etc... think about what you would like to see, and stop worrying about whether there is a bias or poor methodology. - Dual TN1220's with the Hsu 500watt(400watts/sub). :)

[Michael Bain]

Let's try this again! :)

1. You can try max SPL tests using a subjective distortion limit, and/or a fixed distortion limit (somewhere between 0-10% probably). You will also need to experiment with different starting SPL meter positions.
2. See above
3. Probably best to test both single and stacked subs (time allowable) and see exactly how much the measurements change.
4. Frequency response can be measured in different ways. Some reviewers use a 100db tone, some other reviewers match 40Hz output of each subwoofer and test frequency response at lower frequencies relative to 40Hz output.
5. Subjective listening tests should involve a wide variety of music and movie material, blind listening tests, and ideally third party testers.
6. Sub will probably be corner-loaded. Make sure to give the Hsu ports at least 3 inches of space to the rear, and follow Dr. Hsu's placement guidelines.
7. Experiment with ports blocked and unblocked. Make sure to test frequency response with each tuning mode, and equalize test conditions based on equivalent frequency response.
8. We want to see a fair and impartial review, using blind listening tests.

Some of the details expressed in this thread are not so obvious to everyone. There are pro reviewers who have had issues with SPL measurements changing because of a very slight change in the position of the SPL meter. Extra details and insight on testing methodology should always be welcomed.

Finally, check with Dr. Hsu on each and every point listed above, because he is the ultimate authority on Hsu products.

[craigsub]

Curtis and Michael... Thank You.

[Lwang]

In dual sub test, you have the option of boltimg the together and wiring them in such a way so that harmonic distortion would be lowered.

Also, when determining harmonic distortion, you have to determine whether the prominent ones are even or odd, or whether they are of higher order ones, since some are alot more dissonant in nature and alot more sensitive to our ears.

Much of the demo material are of ultra-low freq range, which does not determine its upper freq articulation. You would have to get much music that has extensive bass tracks in the crossover region, so as to hear parts that are prominently produced by the sub and others that are by the speakers.

Subjective testing with various speakers, including ultra-revealing ones like Quad or Soundlab ESLs. No point testing the clarity of a sub when the main speaker's resolving capability are not up to par. Please no horns.


Please let me know what ElectroVoce did in which Hsu copied everything off?

[Active Speaker]

Craigsub,

Why don't you conduct your test with the TN1220HO? Or try 3 of them? Or why don't you seek subs that are more expensive than Hsu or SVS subs and go against them?

What are you trying to accomplish? Where is the law of diminishing returns? Maybe your Dad can beat up my Dad? Maybe you have more testosterone? Maybe your sub can make more dogs bark or more wives complain about everything in the house rattling!

Hsu subs are the BEST sub value for under $1000, period. Of course their are subs that outperform Hsu AND SVS, who cares? Hsu has found the mark for most people. I found a guy on the web who custom builds subs for people who have a little extra change floating around: the woofers are 24"! I bet they would blow away just about anything (especially since he puts 4 of them in an enclosure that is mounted in an enclosure OUTSIDE OF THE HOUSE that fires into the house through a HOLE IN THE WALL!).

I'm sure that SVS makes excellent subs: go buy the SVS.

No one is trying to be hostile to you, it's just that it's pointless to do this test UNLESS you either test a single sub at a time OR test SEVERAL subs (maybe 5 - 10) from different manufacturers that are priced in the same ballpark. If Hsu doesn't currently make any subs anywhere near the SVS sub, it isn't a fair test except to note how good the Hsu is for a tremendously lower price.

[craigsub]

Lwang, Lighten up and smile. I never said that Dr. Hsu stole/copied anything. What I said was this, in 1978, Electrovoice had a speaker called the Interface:D. It had an eq'd 12 inch bass driver, was a 6th order bandpass design, one could plug a port to extend the deep bass at the expense of a bit of SPL. Does all that sound famaliar ? The point is there is rarely something totally new in technology.

Now, no horns ? Dr. Hsu knows I have a pair of Klipsch Belles, and his words "Get a pair of the new VTF-3 Mk 2's" "They will be able to keep up with your Klipsch's dynamic range" I also have a pair of Infinity IRS Sigmas. Stereophile Class "A". If you like, we can do some stuff with them.

Active Speaker... I would suggest reading before writing. One thing Rick Hilst was correct about. There is no pleasing this forum. I get told that all you guys are about is being honest and analytical. That I am biased. Go read some of the choice things you just ACTIVE just wrote, THEN tell me about MY bias. I have said, several times, the goal is to see HOW much performance can be gotten from a $699 sub, then a pair of them, then a $2300 sub. How close will they be ? Can we have dome fun doing this ?

So, at the start, it will be done with all listening and no measurements. And the listening will have the HSU subs where Dr. Hsu said to put the VTF-3's, and the SVS where they said.

The tests will be done blind. That is easy enough.

[craigsub]

Oops... spelling error above... dome = some.

Since the first part of this review will be blind listening, How about some suggestions for CD's and DVD's.... ? I will be using a lot of the one Dr. Hsu recommends.

Active... Perhaps an anger management course ?...:D
You see, Had you read other stuff that I posted, you would know my brother builds pro-audio gear. He has a 21 inch sub... just the driver and magnet assembly are something like 71 pounds... If SPL was the only thing, I would put one of his designs up. However... This is stuff for the house.

You guys should be proud though. I have never seen such behavior anywhere. For making a person feel unwelcome in a forum, especially someone who has ordered (and paid for) the products that support the forum, you guys are the tops. I must feel good being # 1. Congratulations !!!

Anyway... Keep the comments coming. This is good stuff!

Regards -

[Michael Bain]

The Hsu is not a bandpass design, BOSE is a bandpass design :D Also, Hsu's tuning solution was never simply to plug a port. This is a side issue though.

Craig sub, we have all tried to help or assist you in different ways (semantic issues aside), and you have honestly really put up some resistance to what we have said. For someone who is supposed to be open-minded and for someone who is new here and learning about Hsu Research, this really confuses me. Insulting the regulars at this forum after being here for two days is not a very good way to make friends. Insulting us at other forums (like referring to us as from the same gene pool) is also not a very good way to make friends. Our behavior has been completely rational, analytical, honest. I do not see how that is even an issue here. And from what I have seen, you have gotten much more quality information and feedback here than anywhere else regarding this potential shootout. We would love to give you more peace of mind about this shootout, but we honestly cannot because of the historically heated nature of the subject. All we can really do is present different potential testing options and different potential testing issues.

The last thing we want is for someone to be rude and/or resistant towards us when we are trying to give honest advice and honest thoughts on the subject. Remember, it takes two to tango :) Of course this forum is biased, because it is specific to Hsu Research. This is no different than the bias exhibited at some other manufacturer-specific forums.

And I still have not received an answer about how to deal with the parametric eq issue. Maybe this can be added to the Hsu's as an accessory?

[Lwang]

As Michael pointed out, Hsu is not a 6th order bandpass design. Those are used only to get more SPL out. Hsu does not use the "just plug a port" method, as the other maker does. There is a bit more involved than that. Also Hsu doesn't just EQ their sub to extend it deeper. Their sub is designed so that it has an early rolloff, then EQ'd so that it becomes flat. It is done for a purpose and not to compensate for any deficiency.

If you are a horn kind of guy, your criteria would seem to be biased toward bass SPL and dynamics, and less toward bass articulation and integration. So Velodyne with its dynamic limited implementation would definitely be at a disadvantage.

Also, the IRS Gamma with its box woofer would not reveal anything more since it does not have as fast a bass unit as in the ESLs. One would worry more about the integration between the woofer and the planar mids. Also, maybe the would match better with the Velodynes since they are both servo controlled uints.

[Michael Bain]

Craig, maybe the best approach is just to have some fun and downplay the idea of a "shootout", given the price differences and historical hostilities involved. Enjoy the products and speak with the designers to help get the most out of each product. I think what you can gain most from this forum is further knowledge and appreciation of the Hsu Research designs. And when you warm up to this place, you will find that most of the people here are very good-natured and helpful individuals who share a deep appreciation and admiration of Hsu Research.

[craigsub]

Michael, I have been contacted by a gentleman on another thread. He had a problem with an HSU sub he had just purchased. He tried to get some help on this forum. Here is what he wrote to me "I wonder if some of those people work for HSU, since they take a rather edgy attitude about anything that is not completely gung ho about the product" I told him to hang in there, and gave him another HSU product to try. I have had three other gentlemen PM me to tell me about similar enounters here.

I also made a joke with Curtis, after he said "it is tough, Hsu has a dedicated forum on their own site, "

My JOKE was "Curtis, ... What happens when one hangs around the same gene pool after a period of time ? ...:D (it was actually a joker face, one is not available here)... and people other on HSU Forum (HF) were chuckling about it.

Now... making friends... According to Lwang, Unless I use exclusively ESL's, nothing is valid. That sure is open minded. ESL's do, after all have what... 0.5 % of the speaker market ? Quads are a fantastic product, but there are other valid designs. Oh, and the IRS Sigma does not use a servo. It, like the Quad, has been listed in Stereophile's class A. Ironically, Tom says he has never seen a Stereophile recommended product he did not love, but mine is still not good enough. Fine.

Tom says nothing I say will matter. There was a warm welcome.

Active called me testosterone driven, dog barking, my dad can beat up your dad, dish rattling. No bias there.

You like to make your own observations and call them facts.

You toss around the word honestly. Let us see how honest you guys can be. I was chastised, by a member here, because SVS stole their 6th order bandpass design from Hsu. Will the member of this forum who told me that the Hsu was a 6th order bandpass stand up and say so ? I had always considered the type of porting used by Hsu, E/V ... etc... to be 4th order. " A 4th order is sealed on one side with a port to another, Very low F3 is possible with a 4th order bandpass, as well as lower driver excursion. "

But one of your own corrected me... But ALL ported designs are a form of bandpass.

You fellows also like to embellish on my words. I gave the Electrovoice design for a reason. I did not say, nor hint, that Dr. Hsu copied anything from E/V, he may never have even heard of that speaker. Lwang tossed the "just" into his response, making it sound like I was in some way saying Dr. Hsu "just" used a port blocker. The use of port blockers is a science, again using Thiele/Small parameters. The designs using them are more complex than standard bandpass designs. But is is fact the concept was used before Dr. Hsu. Does the fact that Dr. Hsu took a lot of ideas from the past, improved on them, and delivered a revolutionary product warrant praise ? Yes.

The simple fact, gentlemen, I came to this site as an excited, soon to be Hsu owner. You can call your response a real attempt to be nice and helpful. You would be wrong. You have been rude and condescending. Will that change my opinion of the product or the company ? No.

Do I feel welcome here ? No. And that started from the first post from Tom. Look at what I wrote to Sasha, and look at the response from Tom.

[Michael Bain]

This thread is going nowhere fast, I can see ;)

Who is the person who PM'd you? Anyone who reads the majority of our posts will realize that we do not work for Hsu, and will realize that we are at times their harshest critics. This is in stark constrast to all the back-patting that goes on at some other forums.

I think you are taking things wrong because you don't know about the character of the people at this forum. Tdekaney said that his mind would not be changed by the proposed shootout, not that your statements are meaningless. Lwang is notorious for poking fun at people who do not have clean planar speakers. Active Speaker's response was probably a tad dramatic, but he did raise some relevant issues.

As far as I know, SVS does not use a 6th order design. Can you verify that? All we were trying to say is that many design ideas from Hsu Research were directly incorporated into SVS designs. I do not believe that any impartial person could deny that. Right or wrong is besides the point, and was not being debated.

We have bent over backwards to help people out at this forum over the last few months. We have bent over backwards to give you advice on setup, technique, and potential issues, and in return we have had all of that thrown back in our face. That is too bad. Sometimes, no amount of reasoning or logic can change someone's mind.

[tdekany]

I have never purchased an audio product that was recommended by Stereophile that I didn't ""LOVE""
That is how I learned about Hsu Research. Once I have learned more about the MAN behind these awesome subs, I was sold for life! Personally I don't care for SVS - to me they are obviously copy cats. As you were saying ""the man knows his stuff"" - I will always support Dr Hsu's work. So I am not interested in such comparison. What else do Hsu subs have to prove? Nothing!
I'd like to see how any Hsu sub compare to top priced subs though. That would be interesting to me. Good luck to you.
Thomas

Craig sub - that was my first reply - what am I quilty of?

You are using different posts from diffrent people to justify your side of the ""argument"".

I'll tell you again that personally I don't care about your comperison. Sorry.

If you thought that you would be welcomed with open arms here bringing SVS to the table so to speak .... I guess you were wrong.

Of course you are welcomed here as a Hsu supporter. Everyone is.

Look at your subject, then your post turns out to be an SVS vs HSU test. (You are good) :D

As far as people complaning about how they were treated when they couldn't get instant replacements for their subs - both Sasha & the Dr were at CES.

What can We do for them except to say: call or e mail Hsu Research & wait for a response.

I wouldn't be happy with a defective product either, but I sure wouldn't take it out on people who participate on a BB. (people were really trying to help just read those posts).

I would go to the source. Wouldn't you as well?

Thomas

[tdekany]

I'll tell you again that personally I don't care about your comperison. Sorry.

I meant to say that I don't care about the OUTCOME of your comparison.

[sputnikv8]

Wish I could "filter" this topic out of my "new posts" search. :(

I'm not sure what the results will even prove. And at this point, this is pretty much exactly the way the discussion will (and on other forums always has) end.

PC vs. Macintosh
Tastes great vs. less filling
(insert other holy wars here)

This is probably why other (more professional) reviewers have stayed away from the topic allowing both companies enjoy the success of their followings.

[craigsub]

Michael, I have stated many times that SVS obviously looked at the HSU design, and thought they could do it as well, or better, and make some money doing so. They will tell you there are a lot of differences... etc... There was one guy made this statement "Without Hsu, there would likely not BE an SVS" ... What do you think of that ? Would you agree ?

[craigsub]

Michael, I keep forgetting the EQ question... I will not be using the built in EQ. I will be using, for listening, the subwoofer optimizer system. It gets rid of a room resonace (it does wonders in my 25 by 24 foot roomand, for the blind test, will make going back and forth much simpler), and will be doing the same for both subs. It won the gold award in SGHT, so even Tom can approve....:D

[cschang]

craig,

with the VTF-3, you HAVE to use the built in EQ. It is part of the design to put the the sub in lower tune, or higher output. If can not be defeated.

Or did I miss something and you are talking about somethingelse?

[craigsub]

Curtis, This was in response to the parametric eq in the SVS.

[cschang]

ooops....sorry.

[Ajax]

As an HSU owner, I'm very disappointed with the way Craigsub has been treated on this forum. There is no such thing as an unbiased opinion. If this forum is open only to those biased in favor of HSU, then what is said here carries little credibility.

[Michael Bain]

Craig, yes I agree without question. Fortunately, Dr. Hsu's designs are unique enough so that they are very difficult to mimic completely, and that is what keeps them going today because their marketing is not nearly as aggressive as some of the other competitors.

[Lwang]

No servo control unit in your IRS? You are missing half the speaker.

Also, nobody said about ESL or bust, but horns are not exactly the last word in accuracy, even if they are Avantgardes. Hope you are not using 1/2 watt SETS and turntable w/wooden tonearm (or one of those turntables w/24" platter & 16" tonearm & cactus needle stylus).

[Michael Bain]

Ajax, who said anything about this forum only being open to those biased towards Hsu? This forum is intended to be a place where people can discuss and learn about Hsu Research, it is really as straightforward as that. Rick Hilst is a perfect example of someone who came to this forum with an open mind and an interest to learn about Hsu. It is extremely difficult to discuss if all the good-natured suggestions are immediately rejected by someone new to this forum.

[Ajax]

Michael,

Define "Good-natured"

Are you implying that because I'm new I don't have a right to speak?

What suggestions did I reject?

I think you just proved my point.

[craigsub]

Michael, Who made that statement ? (without HSU there likely...)

Lwang... The IRS Sigmas were designed without a servo. I am sure you are a superior designer than is Arnie Nudall...:D ... so I will see if I can get my money back.

[Michael Bain]

Ajax, good natured meaning that they were honest and sincere responses to the original question. Who said anything about anyone new not having the right to talk? What I meant was that people new to the forum generally have a pretty open mind with respect to accepting different suggestions. I did not mean to direct that comment at you though.

Craig, I know you made that statement, and everyone here agrees with that statement.

[craigsub]

Michael, does a statement like that sound like that comes from a person who admires or is being detrimental to Dr. Hsu ?

[Lwang]

Craigsub,

The Servo controller were an option for most of the IRS line.

BTW, Nudell went off course once he stopped producing the ServoStatiks.

[DavidD]

craigsub (and Ajax, perhaps),

I've stayed out of this discussion until now, since I have no useful experience in speaker testing. In addition, the direction the discussion took wasn't that interesting to me.

However, both of you - to some extent - believe the Hsu forum population isn't being friendly or open-minded enough. Perhaps that is so. I would hope that we could discuss things like this in a friendly fashion. That isn't how it has turned out, but I have seen much worse on other forums. We (Hsu forum members) probably get about a 'C' on this discussion, in my judgement.

In reading over this thread today, your initial questions and the initial replies seemed pretty reasonable. From then on, I think both sides got a little out of control. I think some of the member replieas were overly sensitive (or protective) regarding Hsu products. Although this is somewhat understandable given past events on other forums, it wasn't warranted in this case. At the same time, craigsub, I didn't understand your strong reaction to some of the replies. Perhaps you're more perceptive than I, but I interpreted the tone and intention of the posts differently than you did. I don't know which of us was more correct.

In any case, speaking for myself, you are welcome here. This is the Hsu forum, so the discussions should probably focus on Hsu products. I think we can all do that.

Good luck with your comparison. I look forward the your results, but I'm definitely biased. I'll be sticking with Hsu.

[craigsub]

DavidD, Let's try it as if things were reversed. You owned a pair of, say, 1225's with the 500 watt amp. And you ordered a pair of VTF-3 Mark 2's along with a PB2-Ultra. You also had in your possession, for about a month, a pair of SVs Ultra's that you then sold.

You post, on home theater spot.... "Pb-2 Ultra" as a heading... and ask in open forum... "Tom Vodhanel, I just ordered a pair of HSU VTF-3 MK. 2's as well as a PB2 Ultra from you and we will be doing a comparison"

I expect both sub set-ups will be great

a few questions :

1. How does the "new ultra" compare to the CS-Ultra ?
2. Is there any criteria you would like to see included ?
3. It will be posted on Home Theatre Spot, and we are planning on doing all of these... maz spl at 16 Hz and up, listening tests, etc....
4. Any comments / suggestions are welcome...


Here I am, having just read your post would answer...

DavidD,

This sounds like quite the undertaking. It will be interesting to see how the $1400 Hsu's stack up against the $2300 SVS...

Are you going to do listening tests first, or the measuring ?

I would suggest listening, blind, taking notes on sub A and Sub B ... using a wide variety of music and DVD's .

Then, when you have finished, reveal to yourself which is which...

at that point, you can take the measurements to see how the objective data and your ears match up...................

It would start there. And maybe we would become friends... I would not suggest bias, that I did not care what you found... etc...

[craigsub]

Lwang - You could save us a lot of time. Would you please post the speakers you consider good enough for listening purposes ?

[tdekany]

Gandhi - I mean Craig :D

In a perfect world:
1- you would be spoiled by all of us here.
2 - people would not go to sleep hungry

this is Hsu's forum. On Home Theatre Spot we would all be acting in kind like you would have.

this is the only BB I visit. Once I read a thread about this guy on another BB who tested a Hsu sub and decided to return his SVS sub. That was ugly. My other reason for sticking to Hsu & it's BB.

[craigsub]

Cute, Tom... Very Cute. I like the Ghandi thing. That would make you... Stalin ?

[Michael Bain]

Craig, I fully believe that you respect and believe in Hsu Research. Many of the arguments that have spread in this thread from all sides have been pretty petty. I am now convinced that it is all a silly misunderstanding of words and intentions. The only thing that really matters is that you enjoy the product and set it up to the best of your ability.

[craigsub]

Thanks Michael... That was nice (hurts, doesn't it ?) ......

The room is ready, waiting for subs, and the first 30 days at least will just be listening...

This oughta get some more stuff rolling... I may or may not do any measurements after the listening part is done.

The listening portion will extend from classic to rock... jazz... even some country ( I can see Lwang cringing now... Randy travis on his Quads...) ... and the usual home theater stuff...

If neither set up has a problem energizing the room... it is 25x24x9.5 feet... and opens to another room about the same size... and both sound really good... who knows ? Maybe that will be enough...

[Michael Bain]

What hurts? Gandhi was a great man! ;)

[tdekany]

Originally posted by craigsub
Cute, Tom... Very Cute. I like the Ghandi thing. That would make you... Stalin ?
Stalin, is just fine.

[Michael Bain]

Your MIG jets were revolutionary, sir, but you stole the idea from the English you bastard! :D

[craigsub]

Michael... The hurts was for being nice... get it ?

Ghandi also liked to bang little girls... come to think of it... maybe he and Stalin would have been friends....

the MIG was GOOD STUFF....

[Michael Bain]

I do not have a problem with being nice. All I need to do is put my rechargeable battery cell into the wall each night, and oil the joints each morning. :D

[DavidD]

Craigsub,

Your response is an example of how we can unintentionally get ourselves into trouble in these types of interchanges. When we only have the written word and no body language, tone of voice, etc. we need to be more careful to avoid misunderstandings. My first response was annoyance at what seemed like a non-sequitor. (I didn't accuse you of any of the things in your list, for example.)

On the other hand, if I take it as I have decided it was intended (an example of an ideal response), my reaction is different. Yep, that is a good response to my hypothetical question. I wish I'd said it.

[craigsub]

To all the Young Stalinists.... a new 5 year plan...:D

Actually... For the listening portion of this. I have a statement and a question. Personally, I have never cared what the measurements are in a speaker/subwoofer. When listening/watching one does not keep an SPL meter nearby...

First... What are the opinions on that ? (except Lwang, my Klipschorns offend his sensibilities...;))...

Second, Once they are set up in the "best" spot in the room, my 12 year old son has agreed to be the "blind guide" ... He will be deciding which sub is hooked up, and keeping a log as to which is which...

I will make notes as to the sound quality as I and my wife... and guests (if we ever get any in this #$%#$! weather) ... hear it...

And post findings ... after two weeks ? 30 days ?

Any thoughts ?

[tdekany]

Originally posted by craigsub
Michael... The hurts was for being nice... get it ?

Ghandi also liked to bang little girls... come to think of it... maybe he and Stalin would have been friends....

the MIG was GOOD STUFF....

where did you hear that from?

[Michael Bain]

That is what SVS told him........







........I am just kidding. :D

[craigsub]

No... It was Velodyne...;)

I learned it in humanities in college.... I still remember the professor... nice, quiet lady... "Of course the worls overlooked a few indescretions, he did, after all, free 300 million people"

[Active Speaker]

Different culture, different times, different standards.

[craigsub]

Active... true, though if you want more than just that... type "true history of ghandi" on some search engines... you can learn a lot.. suffice it say he was not the guy from the movie...not preaching here, it was just some eye opening stuff... of course... most historical figures share that..

[tdekany]

Originally posted by craigsub
Active... true, though if you want more than just that... type "true history of ghandi" on some search engines... you can learn a lot.. suffice it say he was not the guy from the movie...not preaching here, it was just some eye opening stuff... of course... most historical figures share that..

I know what you mean - Some books claim that Jesus ended un India and got married & had children. :confused:

Now let's get back to Hsu Subs & how great they sound!!!!!! :cool:

[craigsub]

Now is where I REALLY get to whine... Where the hell are they ?

Actually, I ordered them last Tuesday (I think) ... funny story... I saw the listing for $699 delivered... and thought it must be an error... so I clicked the buy it... upped the shopping cart to two... thought I was really an astute shopper... then see it has been that price for months...helluva price though...

Also interesting... with the room size, Dr. Hsu thought they new 3/2's were a better choice than either the 1220's or the 3/r's... the $849 delivered from AVS looked good on the 3/r's...but he likes the new ones...(VTF-3 Mk 2's....)

They really might be something....

[cschang]

So he thought more of two VTF-3MK2's than dual TN1220's with the 500watt amp?

I am going to have to try and make a visit over there.

[craigsub]

Curtis... He did not say that. He said, for the size of room, the very efficient Klipsch, and the fact the use will be more home theatre than music (with a wife and three kids, listening to music is a luxury) the VTF-3/2's would be his choice...

MY GUESS is that the 3/2's are a bit higher output from around 20 hz and up... the 1220's catching and passing them them lower... and that, for this situation, he would go with them.

That does not mean he thought more of them... make sense ?

[cschang]

Yup....that makes sense.

[Lwang]

I don't have Quads, but Magnepan MG-3.6/R. So bass integration is the upmost importance to me.

You have to go into more detail as to the type of music you are using. Solo cello? Plucked double bass? Please no bass tracks that has intentionally bass overhang.


I think the VTF-3 MkII would have an advantage over the 1220 only with the 250w amp, in the freq range 30hz and above.

[craigsub]

Lwang - At least the Maggies can Rock...:p ....Actually, there will come a time when I woulc get a pair of possibly the 20's... But with there kids, including two boys who think the world is their Karate Dojo....(our 12 year old is both diabetic and a 2nd degree blackbelt...yes, dad is proud)...

but for the system... Majority is movies (those kids again)...then music. I listen to a lot of classic in the car... but at home it would be more like Steely Dan's Two Against Nature...Roger Waters...I tend to enjoy a bit of action in the music. Love The Wall. Stanley Clarke... David Sanborn...

Now... Here is a thought... The $$$$ between a pair of the 1220's and the VTF-3/s2's is really minimal...

I have gone the route of e-mailing Dr. Hsu... he recommended the "3's" three different times... but I am not sure he was thinking total, gut wrenching performance....

SHould I, for this purpose, go with the 1220's ?

My wife is quite accomidating in these matters.....

Wonder... Sell the Infinities... Lwang.... You may be a speaker snob...:cool: ... but you have me thinking...

[craigsub]

Michael, To the Bandpass/Bose stuff. Way back in the 70's, when Bose was selling the 901's (and other well marketed and lousy sounding stuff), before their Acoustimass "subs" ALL dynamic speakers were considered a form of bandpass.

In today's terms, think what a lowpass crossover... highpass ... etc...

bandpass, at that time, was in the design...

1st Order Bandpass was Infinite Baffle
2nd Order was Acoustic Suspension
3rd Order was normal Bass Reflex (where the port and the driver covered the same range, for the most part, think JBL L-100's)
4th order was a speaker (subwoofer) which was enclosed on one side, with a tuned port on the other (the works of Dr's Theile/Small helped make this a very good way to enhance a speaker, they made it easier to use science rather than trial and error). The port would allow for high SPL's within its bandpass with smaller excursions from the bass driver. This port was tuned to just below the resonance frequency of the driver, and bass would be much deeper and more powerful.

When you think of the definition of the 4th order bandpass design, you could put a picture of a 1220 there. The HARD part of this design is making it work in the real world, one major weakness is slow transient response, which the HSU design eliminates with the overdamped design... ( I am sure you already knew that )....

THEN - along comes Bose... with the Bandpass BOX. Also known as a 6th order bandpass box... The driver is enclosed, with ports on either end...

Bose being what Bose is, after a while, NOONE wanted his (highend) design called a Bandpass... because people assumed the BOX part, with all it problems, would be there, too... put another way, if you want a real fight, tell someone his 1220 is the same design as the Bose... :mad:

Hope that clears up where I got the definitions from...

[Michael Bain]

The VTF-3MKII should be a fine choice. It also has the distinction of being the newest piece from the company. Only the inner circle of Hsu Research would know exactly how it compares to TN1220HO on an objective measurable basis, and we will probably need to wait for some pro reviews to get a better idea. 16Hz playback at 110db's is where the TN1220HO would probably have an edge, but that really is not an issue here I think.

[craigsub]

Michael, thanks for the reply on the VTF-3 Mk 2's... Lwang does have me thinking about those Maggies... always liked them.

And the tenor of the e-mails (from Dr. Hsu) regarding the 3/2's has exuded a real air of confidence... he never blinked once, even with the idea of testing from 16 Hz on up...

Waiting is always annoying...

[Michael Bain]

You're welcome.

Frequency response should be extremely solid from 16Hz on up.

[Lwang]

Lwang does have me thinking about those Maggies... always liked them.
Horn lover showing a liking for maggies? Is there a contradiction here? You would have to buy recordings that is made through this process:

http://www.wyastone.co.uk/nrl/pv_transfer.html


[quote]And the tenor of the e-mails (from Dr. Hsu) regarding the 3/2's has exuded a real air of confidence... he never blinked once, even with the idea of testing from 16 Hz on up... [QUOTE]
It would be no issue, but when you compare it with another sub that is tuned to 16hz, then the Hsu would be at a disadvantage.

It's like comparing the Velodyne to the SVS tuned at 25hz by playing 10hz. The Velodyne would probably have higher output due it the unloading of the ported sub below the tuning freq.

[craigsub]

Lwang, My criteria is music. I love the Orchestra. I have friends who play two guitars and sing... nothing else... at a quaint pub. or a small jazz ensemble. I also always loathed Klipsch until I went to the Phil then listened to the K-horns... they are not for everyone, but they are damn revealing...But no, no 3 watt amps and wood turntables.

I also love the home theatre... even the explosions...

I also had an affinity for the old Accustats from the late 70's...

I heard the Maggies in the late 90's and loved them... very fast, see through sound. and yes, they can also kick ass...

I am actually on their site now... the 1.6's could be a great match for the VTF-3/2's.... and when you think about it, the whole set up, including the subs, under $3000...

your thoughts....?

and yes, I will check out the site you posted...

[craigsub]

Lwang... now THAT is a horn ! The Waf rating may be a bit tough though...

[Ddavidson]

also always loathed Klipsch until I went to the Phil then listened to the K-horns... they are not for everyone
Very true about Klipsch from the moment you first hear them you KNOW CERTAINLY YOUR ARE LISTENING TO A KLIPSCH HORN.

They have always reminded me of the old French and English revolution days of "beheading the guilty". The Maggies on the other hand, are more favored by my ears to replay back "what I prefer listening to".

Still taste in music and sound are so variable that there is definitely no right or wrong.

Ddavidson

[craigsub]

Dave - Well Said... One area with K-horns that a lot of people don't do right is the set-up and associated electronics. Ironically, one amp that does not work well with them is Aragon. I have an 8008... and they and the Klipsch are not a nice match, and since Klipsch owns them (Aragon)....

I got the McIntosh MA-6900 after reading a review from Sam Tellig and talking to some very knowledgeable Klipsch/Mac people... With this amp, they are very detailed, non-horn sounding (they just make music)... I think a lot of people assume that a speaker with 104 db efficieny means it is easy to drive...

And from what I remember about Maggies... they also make good music...

By the way... in the last two hours, I sold the Infinities...

So, which Maggies to go with ?

[Lwang]

MG-1.6/QR are all right, but the only reason I go with maggies is because of their pure ribbon tweeter. And those are the 3 series and up.

BTW, Hsu owned a pair of Quads and use to design subwoofers to mate with them. So we know he wasn't only about extension and SPL.

I think the only horns that I might not have objected to are the Avantgarde ones, most of the others I can only hear for a second or two, especially the ones in which the owners powered them by what seems to be a xmas light bulb.

[craigsub]

Lwang, Stay away from orchestras then... strings only....:D .... all those horns would be too much.

I listed the Infinities on Audiogon 3 weeks ago... they are definitely sold...

Now more fun... researching Maggies (or maybe a pair of old Carver amazings...)

One thing about living in NorthWest Pa... High End stores are non-existent....

ps... the Carvers part was to see if Lwang was paying attention...:p

[craigsub]

Lwang... If memory serves... Sam Tellig (or someone from stereophile) actually did a listening only test (perhaps in 1991...92 ?) ... Hsu (as a company) was fairly new... and They were seeing how this "upstart" would do matched to the ultra-fast Quads... and the answer was quite well...

I also broke down and sent Dr. Hsu an e-mail regarding this thread, the "shootout" ... and his opinion as to whether or not changing to the 1220's with the 500 watt amp would be more fitting...rather than the new "3's"

[Active Speaker]

"Active... true, though if you want more than just that... type "true history of ghandi" on some search engines... you can learn a lot.. suffice it say he was not the guy from the movie...not preaching here, it was just some eye opening stuff... of course... most historical figures share that.."


__________________
Craig



Don't believe what you read on the Internet unless it is documented by reliable sources...

[Lwang]

I don't care much for Carver Amazings. Seems only zero-fi rags like Stereo Review liked them. Those reviews forgot to mention that those speakers had "cone woofers", instead, using terms like planar driver, etc.


It was Peter W Mitchell, fellow member of Dr. Hsu in Boston Audio Society that heard his subs, were amazed by it and had to write about it in Stereophile, the rest was history.

Hsu and Mitchell had made presentations at BAS all the way back in the mid 80's:

http://www.bostonaudiosociety.org/meetings_72-90.htm
http://www.bostonaudiosociety.org/meetings.htm

You can see some real reviews here:
http://members.iinet.net.au/~colinf/hsuindex.html

[craigsub]

Lwang... The Carvers thing was a joke, I know you would never own them...(I have heard them in a so-called optimal setting... they were still so-so) ....

And come on... for a guy to remember an article from over ten years ago about two things (the quads and subs) he never owned is pretty good...:D

Active... I never should have mentioned the Ghandi/teenage thing here... I was reacting to being called Ghandi as a joke/compliment... FWIW, The college course I learned all these things (like the Ghandi stuff) was in a fascinating humanities course on virtue.

Everything we studied was well documented. One topic was how many people were brought up to believe Lincoln started the civil war to eradicate slavery... Ghandi was another. The basic premise is how we revere (or at minimum ignore) certain figure's behavior (Stalin gets pretty much a free pass...) where others are trashed ( ie... Hitler... now before I get yelled at... Hitler deserved it... ok?) ... Anyway, the Ghandi stuff stuck with me mostly because it was so surprising...

And I would never take just the word of someone on the internet... why do you think I ordered and am paying for $4000 grand worth of subs ? :p

Nice segue' back to the topic at hand... yes ?

[Rick Hilst]

Craig,

I've been thinking about this and I really don't think it should take TWO VTF-3 MK2's to compete with the PB-Ultra - one should be sufficient.

Just send me the second MK2 and I'll verify your results.

[craigsub]

Rick, Your willingness to sacrifice for the cause is heart wrenching.

[tdekany]

Originally posted by craigsub
Rick, Your willingness to sacrifice for the cause is heart wrenching.

How romantic!!! :D :D :D

[craigsub]

Tom, Saw your car... You are that skinny blonde kid in Fast and the Furious, right ?:p

[Rick Hilst]

Your willingness to sacrifice for the cause is heart wrenching.

I'm serious!

Of course, you'll probably have to send me one of those PB-Ultra's too (just to be fair).

[craigsub]

Hmmmmmmm... I am only getting one ultra... that could pose a problem. It also weighs 190 pounds... and Curtis thought moving the subs around the room would be a good idea... Curtis needs to fly his sorry butt to Pennsylvania and HE can move it around...

On the subwoofer front... I sent Dr. Hsu an e-mail regarding this little comparison to make sure he was happy with the choice of the 3/2's instead of the 1220's/500 watt amp... Lwang is the instigator of that...

[cschang]

Originally posted by craigsub
and Curtis thought moving the subs around the room would be a good idea... Curtis needs to fly his sorry butt to Pennsylvania and HE can move it around...

It would take more than subwoofers to get me out there in the winter time.....

It is 60 degrees here today...and I think that is chilly.

[tdekany]

Originally posted by craigsub
Tom, Saw your car... You are that skinny blonde kid in Fast and the Furious, right ?:p

Pretty close!

[craigsub]

Speaking as a normal hetero guy... The car was better...:D

[tdekany]

Originally posted by craigsub
Speaking as a normal hetero guy... The car was better...:D

I agree.

http://www.funtigo.com/img/i2334800_93173.jpg

http://www.funtigo.com/img/i2334917_32763.jpg

[craigsub]

And I imagine relieved....

[craigsub]

Curtis... now that some sacrifice is required, miving the subs is not so important... hmmmmmmmmmmm ?

One thing about cylinders... they are easy to move...

[cschang]

Well, I wouldn't mind MOVING them to my house.

[Ddavidson]

It was Peter W Mitchell, fellow member of Dr. Hsu in Boston Audio Society that heard his subs, were amazed by it and had to write about it in Stereophile, the rest was history.

Hsu and Mitchell had made presentations at BAS all the way back in the mid 80's:

I think people forget about Dr Hsu's early years. It actuall was Mr Mitchell who first attracted my attention to Hsu with his comments in Stereophile like this one.
" some of the most impressive subwoofer systems I've heard "

Peter Mitchell, Stereophile, Vol. 14, No 3

That's why/when I made the effort to listen to the Hsu offerings. It was only then that it became apparent of what a very gifted designer he was and how he clearly stood above other commercial offerings. It was his designs ability to be clean, deep and powerful which was lacking in other designs. Look at those early designs like the HRSW12 which was seven feet high and 15 inches wide, it's clear to see he has spent a lot of time developing his art of design refinement. (those where big subwoofer enclosures that really could not be hidden from the wife - LOL)


Ddavidson

[craigsub]

That ad brings back memories... good stuff !

[craigsub]

Lwang, I took the time to look through the Hsu/Aussie and the BAS links... great reads... the good sound review on the VTF-3 was excellent....

I see that even Australians like a sub that is killer on Star Wars..:D

Regular price $1910 there... OUCH !

[Rick Hilst]

Well, I wouldn't mind MOVING them to my house
Hey! I already laid claim to the "extra" MK2.

[craigsub]

I thought I would keep 'em... beside, Thomas has an extra...

[tdekany]

Originally posted by craigsub
I thought I would keep 'em... beside, Thomas has an extra...

Me?:confused:

Has an extra??? :confused:

[craigsub]

Sure... You ordered and STF-3... and already owned a HSU... therefore you have an extra :D

[tdekany]

Originally posted by craigsub
Sure... You ordered and STF-3... and already owned a HSU... therefore you have an extra :D

I see - also my car's trunk has 2 ASW1203!

So I have:

stf2
stf3
asw1203/2

had:
vtf3
HRSW10/2 - I will get these back one day.

[craigsub]

Looks like a good collection... How does the STF-2 compare to a VTF-3 ? I get asked a lot about $400 subs...

[tdekany]

Originally posted by craigsub
Looks like a good collection... How does the STF-2 compare to a VTF-3 ? I get asked a lot about $400 subs...

can't tell yet.
Once I get the stf3 I will bring the stf2 back to my apartment and play with it. the STF3 will be at my girlfriends house until we move in together.
BTW, first impression is just like with any other Hsu Sub.

It sounds like a Shu sub.

[Liaury]

Originally posted by tdekany
the STF3 will be at my girlfriends house until we move in together.

Is that how she hooked ya?

ha!

[craigsub]

Actually... since Tom bought the sub, and she is getting it... it seems that is how he hooked her ...:D

And if a woman is the type that can be had for a good subwoofer... I say... keep her !

[craigsub]

Gents... After thinking things through, and getting my wife to agree, I switched the order... The shootout will compare the pair of 3/2's to a single PB2 -Plus...

I am really looking forward to getting the "3's" ... That GoodSound review was something. Anyone hear anything new ?

I also talked to my brother today, and he (and partners) just spent $4000 upgrading their software... when all is done, we will be able to run sweeps of about anything...

Lwang... For kicks, I am going to try a pair of MMG's.... it seems for $550, you cannot lose...can you imagine a better setup than a pair of MMG's and a VTF-3 ... for $1249 ?

[Lwang]

Originally posted by craigsub

Lwang... For kicks, I am going to try a pair of MMG's.... it seems for $550, you cannot lose...can you imagine a better setup than a pair of MMG's and a VTF-3 ... for $1249 ?

Typical HT setup, all the dough for the sub and none for the speakers. :D

Didn't you wife make you sell your other pair of so-called planars (Infinity)?


Also, what are the positions that you are going to place these sub? Is it each one that is recommended by the sub mfg?

[craigsub]

Well... The MMG's are factory direct... seem a good match for the VTF-3... and are priced right. I suppose if they raised the price, they would be better suited...... OOPS... forget I said that...

Wife make me ? The same woman who is encouraging this sibwoofer shootout ? Nope.. and whever said they were Planars ?

As far as sub placement, yes... Dr. Hsu recommended using them as end tables... not stacked.. and the SVS will go behind the sofa...again as recommended...

for measurements, they will be taken outdoors..

[Lwang]

Nope.. and whever said they were Planars ?
Oops, you had the Sigmas, which has more cones than planar drivers. The Gamma/Delta/Beta were more planar than box speaker.

[craigsub]

The Infinities were also overpriced at $14 grand... ( I paid $2500 new.. how would you like to be the poor bastard who got nailed over $10 grand ?)

So Lwang, what do you think I will notice the most in a pair of VTF-3'2's .. I actually sent Dr. Hsu a very specific (actually 3) e-mail regarding them and the 1220's, and he seems convinced the new "3's" are going to really be something special. He has told me all three times to go with a pair of them.

I also think if I ask him again, he will want to hurt me...:D

You are about the fussiest person I know... so your feedback is of interest...

[Active Speaker]

Craig sub,

Out of curiosity, what did Dr. Hsu say to you about using the TN1220HO in your test? (maybe I missed what you said) Did he think that the new 3s would outperform them? Be equal to them? Easier to place? Less fragile? What?

[tdekany]

Originally posted by craigsub
for measurements, they will be taken outdoors..

Cooooool!

Headline news!

Frozen Hsu sub still kicks A$$

[Lwang]

I don't know what you would notice over the VTF-3 MkII. If Dr. Hsu think the added 1.5dB that these new subs will provide will push it above the 1220's capability, then I can't argue with him since he designed it.

[craigsub]

His answer was pretty brief, each time... this quote will be close .... "A pair of VTF-3 Mark 2's will be an excellent choice, place them as you would endtables"

Active, By the time the subs get here, and we have a few weeks listening, it will be spring... It looks like it will be two-three more weeks brfore they even ship...

And yes... He (Dr. Hsu) seems to have a quiet confidence that these new subs are going to be something special...he did not come out and say better than the 1220's, but I pointedly asked him if they would be better... and his response was ... well... see above...the first paragraph

I gather Dr. Hsu is a man of few words....
:cool:

Also... Did it ever get settled.. is it SHU ? .... or SUE ?

[Active Speaker]

My guess is that for most people, they will be comparable. Maybe the TN1220HO will have a little better and lower output, but the VTF-3MKII will be more durable and more stable. Personally, I'm leaning toward purchasing the TN1220HO because of (ironically) placement issues. My actual listening room is rather on the smallish size so I have limited space for placement (end table placement is impossible). I'm hoping that the TN1220HO will not disappoint.

[DavidD]

I'm hoping that the TN1220HO will not disappoint.

I don't think you'll be disappointed. Are you using a Hsu amp? If not, consider the bass optimizer box to be sure you get the most out of your 1220.

[craigsub]

At lease one VTF-3/2 has shipped... When I looked on the Fed-Ex tracking, it only shows 82 pounds in shipping weight.

Is it possible that Hsu would only ship one sub for now, in an effort to get as many people their first sub ASAP ?

Or should I check to ensure my order was placed correctly ?

Either way, There will be an HSU sub in our house before the weekend. :)

[cschang]

Call and double check!

[craigsub]

Hmmmmm... That is what 4 days in Vegas does to a person...

[tdekany]

Originally posted by craigsub
At lease one VTF-3/2 has shipped... When I looked on the Fed-Ex tracking, it only shows 82 pounds in shipping weight.

Is it possible that Hsu would only ship one sub for now, in an effort to get as many people their first sub ASAP ?

Or should I check to ensure my order was placed correctly ?

Either way, There will be an HSU sub in our house before the weekend. :)

I'd say don't - when I tracked my V12s & STF2 it listed 23lbs which is the weight of the V12 but both arrived together. Hsu knows what they are doing. m2c

[craigsub]

Thomas - Thanks, I won't bother them then.

and Phoenix is a great town... one of my business associates lives there... great golf

The subs should be here before the weekend !

[DavidD]

Give us California types a warning before you fire them up. I bet we feel it out here!

[craigsub]

This weekend I was in Vegas for the Superbowl and the National Auto Dealer's Association convention... Several of the people I met there were from California... and they actually were pretty normal...:p ... By Saturday night, the conversation drifted to home theatre... Trying to explain why a GOOD sub and speaker set up is so important is not easy !

And on a rather odd note... Home Theatre Forum seems to want this little "shootout" written up on their site. I have it in writing they will allow the results regardless the outcome.

And on a funny note, a gent from Japan was chastising both Hsu and SVS owners (on Home theatre forum), saying that one could easily build a sub for less money that had 10 db more output than either Hsu or SVS. I suggested he build such a kit, and I would buy (yes, actually pay him) it from him, and put it through all the same tests.

All I asked him was to send along a parts pricing and how many hours it took him to build a sub.

He never responded.

[craigsub]

The reason I considered it odd... Another forum seems totally against the whole idea... yet HTF was more than open to this...

and Lwang... THANKS... You now have me doing research on the Maggies... do you have a dealer you can recommend ?

[Lwang]

Maggie dealer in western PA? No idea. The one in NYC is not so helpful, probably because everyone that comes in knows what they want. And they are not going to try to steer a person to planars when they are inquiring about box speakers.

HTF is where a member that did a Hsu vs SVS comparison got kicked out. And the listening panel included the owner of the SVS sub and hesitantly admitted to the same conclusion.

[DavidD]

HTF is where a member that did a Hsu vs SVS comparison got kicked out. And the listening panel included the owner of the SVS sub and hesitantly admitted to the same conclusion.

How sure are you of this? I've know HTF has a very high percentage of SVS supporters and that SVS is a sponsor. However, this kind of nonsense seems unlikely unless someone got out of hand.

What are the details?

[Lwang]

How sure are you of this? I've know HTF has a very high percentage of SVS supporters and that SVS is a sponsor. However, this kind of nonsense seems unlikely unless someone got out of hand.

Barry posted a review at HTF and AVS, they all attacked him on HTF until somehow they got him on a technicality and booted him out. Sean was the owner of the SVS sub and you he was very hesitant to admit that the Hsu sounded better than his SVS sub.

[craigsub]

Both owners of HTF welcomed the shootout. I explained how we would do both the measuring and listening portions. And yes, I have saved their e-mails that say so.

And regardless of the results, with the review I have posted on the SVS site, it will be hard for anyone from there to fault me, and I hope everyone here now believes I have no bias...

In fact, for the record, I am expecting to find both subs to be fantastic.

As I learn more about the new software we have available, I will let you know. I am thinking testing them in the anaechoic setting at one meter... just as "Secrets of" did with a B4-+ ... Then we can also look at other ideas, including if anyone has something in particular....

[Lwang]

-Group delay.
-Cabinet resonance test w/accelerometer & freq sweep.
-Seperate measurement of the port and driver.
-Impulse response w/distortion figure broken out into harmonic spectrum, and normalized to compensate for increased hearing sensitivity in the upper freq.
-3-D graph of harmonic distortion components as SPL increases, for various frequencies.

[craigsub]

I had to ask....:p

[Mike Sloan]

I have 2 VTF-3's....and never owned an SVS product. Do the review....too many HSU mother Hens on this forum...the HSU subs will stack up just fine...geeez...

[Ajax]

Mike,

He's running the shootout and posting about it over on the AVSForum.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=362595

[craigsub]

Mike - Also thanks... The shootout has been going on since Friday night... Blind listening is really different...

Right now I just re-hooked up a pair of Infinity IRS Sigmas (Class "A" Stereophile while being produced... and very detailed) and a McIntosh MA-6900 200wpc power amp... (Also Class "A" currently) ... and a Class A (as in it runs in Class A) Tube Cd Player... for some more serious two channel listening...

Which means next weekend I get to carry the Hsu (reasonable at 82 pounds) and the SVS (this thing weighs 120 pounds like Anna Nicole Smith does...:p ) to the basement room...

Hope to see you at AVS... and These subs are wonderful... all three are !

[thedeskE]

My MK2 arrived today - will post along with the single sub reports with Craig. Nice Spikes & good boxing. More later.
E

[craigsub]

As good as anything I have seen, and easy to keep for later use...

and the Brass "spikes" are a really nice touch...

[ballards_law]

Did you compare these yet? How'd it come out? Where can I read the review?

[craigsub]

We are still working (if you can call it that) on the Vtf-3/2 pair against a single PB2+...

Maybe over the weekend...

[craigsub]

When I unpacked the Hsu's Friday night ( Whoever came up with that packaging will never make a good government worker... it was logical, easy to do, and everything packed back up for later use...)... The TEST DISC was missing...

How does one go about getting the DEEP BASS CD ?

Thanks...

And we are having fun with this...

[heffalump]

Originally posted by craigsub
The TEST DISC was missing...

How does one go about getting the DEEP BASS CD ?

The deep Bass CD I rec'd today was in a plain white sleeve with my invoice. Both were taped outside the box, not with the packing material.
-------------------------
I'm smiling b/c thanks to the good Dr., I rec'd an 82 lb package from FedEx. today! :)

[craigsub]

I will go have a look... and I managed 112 db with the VTF-3 on the Nuke scene from Terminator III tonight... not bad for a 12 inch driver !!

Sounds good, too !...(thought that might be important...lol)

Enjoy your new sub !

[tdekany]

Originally posted by craigsub
I will go have a look... and I managed 112 db with the VTF-3 on the Nuke scene from Terminator III tonight... not bad for a 12 inch driver !!

Sounds good, too !...(thought that might be important...lol)

Enjoy your new sub !

Enough already - lets see some pictures of something of your setup. Give us something good!

'''Where is my CD? I enjoyed my movie!'''

I don't want to read all the nonsense!

Or send me a car! :D

[craigsub]

Heffalump... I found the CD...thanks... and you were BRILLIANT in Blustery Day...:D

Thomas - When my wife FINALLY gets the digital camera I gave her the $$$$ for at Christmas, I will post pics (of the room, not her) ...

And remember... YOU GUYS were the ones who insisted on a bunch of blind listening tests...:p

Seeing how the weather here will suck until April... I am taking my time...

DId you get your STF-3 yet ?

[tdekany]

Originally posted by craigsub

DId you get your STF-3 yet ?

Sure have, thanks for asking. IHowever I only spent 2 days with it and then I took it over to my girlfriend's house. I even posted pix of it. Now I have the STF2 and I have "basketball" going on in the background as I ma working. So it doesn't get much use for now, but it is an awesome sub. As I wrote beforeFifth Element sounded so well, on the STF2 that honestly I don't think I was able to tell the difference between the two. In my girlfriend's large tv room however the STF3 shines. But then again, so did the STF2.
Bottm line: They are both excellent subs.

Silver color only please! (car).

[craigsub]

I will be by a Toys R Us tomorrow... do you prefer Matchbox or Hot Wheels ?

Your girlfriend must be in a state of bliss... forget diamonds... nothing tells her you love her more than good BASS...

[tdekany]

Originally posted by craigsub
I will be by a Toys R Us tomorrow... do you prefer Matchbox or Hot Wheels ?

Your girlfriend must be in a state of bliss... forget diamonds... nothing tells her you love her more than good BASS...

You are cheap man!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :D :D :D

[craigsub]

An Expensive WIFE ... :p

[tdekany]

Originally posted by craigsub
An Expensive WIFE ... :p

what a cheap excuse! I feel for you though.

We make each other complete so our needs are inexpensive.:)

[craigsub]

I would think you spelled inexpAnsive on purpose...:rolleyes:

[Active Speaker]

Hey Craig,

Why don't you test two TN1220HOs with the 500 watt amp against the PB2+?

Did you read Keele's original measurements with a single 1220 & a 150 watt amp?

I think that 2 TNs with the 500 watt amp would be superior to the PB2+.

[Sasha_G]

In the future, shootouts can occur on other forums, via email, or in publications. If we approve the methods, the results, and the credibility of the reviewer, we'll post it here.

The thread was shut down as a precaution because a lot of arguments
inevitably errupt when SVS is compared to HSU. It doesn't have to
end, it just needs to be someplace else.

HSU vs SVS debates are the last kind of thing we want on our forum.
Sure, its a marketing opportunity, but any marketing that promotes
SVS is not what we want. I don't want to go into details about it, but if it were another brand,we would probably let the shootout run on our forum.

Email me at sales@hsuresearch.com if you have questions.