Where's VTF-1?

[Lwang]

Is the VTF-1 ever going to come out? Or any of its technology that is to be salvaged for other new models?

If the Tripath amp chip could not put out 1000w, why not just parallel up a few of those modules?

[Sasha_G]

I don't believe we are coming out with the VTF-1 any time soon, but that the technology is being tried out in new models. Research and development is an interative, empirical process. Sometimes you have to scrap projects that aren't going smoothly.
Dr. Hsu needed to create the sound quality and output needed for a sub of that price, and getting a 1000 watt amp that was REALLY 1000 watts, AND with the proper heat dissipation requirements was one of the challenges.

[Ddavidson]

I really hope that the Vtf-1 is released. I would definitely be in line for a very powerful Hsu subwoofer. My wife is not a fan of the round Tn series, and having 4-6 Tn1220Ho's would be her worst nightmare.

Hsu needs a flagship and the Tn1220 is not the winning way into a wife's heart. The Vtf-1 however is much more along the standard lines especially being a box sub. It also would no doubt compete well with the new Svs PB2+.



Ddavidson

[Ddavidson]

For those who had not seen the long awaited VTF-1. As far as I was aware it was on the drawing board long before the VTF-3. I would buy the VTF-1 if it ever becomes avaliable.

http://www.soundstagelive.com/shows/hifi1999/pics_may14/hsu.jpg

Poh Ser Hsu is shown with the new $995 Hsu Research VTF-1 powered subwoofer. The VTF-1 has a single 12" driver with dual passive radiators and 800W amp. According to company literature, the VTF-1 "will not hop around like some other subwoofers" because of the unique driver/radiator arrangement.


Ddavidson

[Sasha_G]

The official word on the VTF-1 is that it is in "hibernation" until the amp issue can be resolved. For those that don't know, we need a 1000 watt plate amp that can handle 4 ohms. Small sealed cabinets with passive radiators generally require more wattage that larger enclosures using ports. With that wattage, you would almost need a dedicated outlet to not overload the outlet's wattage rating! The good news is we have recently been auditioning stock plate amps by several major players to see what they can offer. The bad news is that all have fallen short. Some of the ones rated at 1000 watts actually put out only 300 watts! Ridiculous. Others put out around 800, but have such a poor dampening factor that the bass would sound awful. Once we can find the right one, we will modify it for use in our subs.

Dr. Hsu explained to me that he tests with an oscilloscope and a resistive load on the amp, for those who are curious.

[Ddavidson]

The official word on the VTF-1 is that it is in "hibernation"
http://hsuresearch.com/forum/images/icons/icon9.gif
http://hsuresearch.com/forum/images/icons/icon9.gif
http://hsuresearch.com/forum/images/icons/icon9.gif
http://hsuresearch.com/forum/images/icons/icon9.gif

It is such a great shame that the VTF-1 has turned into vaporware. The potential sure was looking very good, because obviously it was going to be very musically sound.

You would think that a plate amplifier capable of 1000w at only 4 ohms would be a relatively easy ask. If it was 8 ohms, then 1000w would be a big ask, but surely not at 4 ohms. Shows you how deceptive the ratings on sub amps actually are. After all, we just about all know a sub brand with a so called 1000w + amp.

You really need a Plate amp version of the Crown K2. If you got Dr Hsu to put the rack mounted K2 on his oscilloscope (while using a dummy load) you will soon confirm its output and dampening factor. I know it will pass the test, because I have seen a driver jumping up and down like it was trying to shed its skin. The K2 certainly got that poor little drivers knees knocking pretty bad when we pushed it a little hard.

Ddavidson

[Lwang]

Getting an amp to do 1000w @ 4 ohms is not the issue, it is when trying to package it with the VTF-1 amp and pricing it around $1k.

Since the VTF-1's driver has dual voice coil in series, it would be possible to run them in parallel and create a 1 ohm driver. Then all you have to do is get some sub amp that is capable of high current and you will have your 1000w amp (some decent 125w amps could even do this, but again, you have to meet your price-point). I guess the damping factor will become a much bigger issue in this situation.

Maybe build a little more current capability into the existing 500w amp (or have a 1 ohm mode) so that it could pump 1000+ watts into the VTF-1.


(I think it is dual voice coil @ 2ohm each, if it is not, disregard what I said)

[Sasha_G]

The only VTF-1 driver prototypes I saw did not have dual voice coils. While it is hibernating, I still have a lot of hope about the project. It may turn out to be a stronger design in the end. The idea of using an outboard amp has been thrown around, and may happen. However, I talked with Dr. Hsu yesterday and we do have a cool running, less expensive, sonically accurate 1000 watt plate amp canditade being made for further testing. I'll keep the forum notified of any updates.

[Ddavidson]

Getting an amp to do 1000w @ 4 ohms is not the issue, it is when trying to package it with the VTF-1 amp and pricing it around $1k.

I am not so sure the final price of the VTF-1 was in concrete! In the latter stages of 1998 it was actually reported in a few magazines that the VTF-1 would be $1149. The earlier Soundstage report was the cheapest ($995) I had seen. We need to also remember that the closely priced VTF-3 ($849) was not a model so I imagine the pricing thing today would be different. I am sure the VTF-3 model only came about out of the failure to finish the VTF-1.

Somehow from all of what I have heard about the amp drama, I think it sounded more like Dr Hsu was tying whatever he could find for the prototype regardless of locking in a perfect price. In other words he could swing a little on the final retail if it worked out a better mousetrap. But the truth I heard via email was that he simply was not impressed with any of the class D - 1000w plate amps. Contol of the driver using any of these amps was very wimpy according to Dr Hsu's email.

I talked with Dr. Hsu yesterday and we do have a cool running, less expensive, sonically accurate 1000 watt plate amp canditade being made for further testing. I'll keep the forum notified of any updates.

Lets hope this VTF-1 finally happens as it no doubt will once again show off Dr Hsu's patience in designing a better subwoofer for the price.

The VTF-1 design will look very nice in the HSU lineup IMO. I know I will be one of the first to buy one. Although the wife might want me to sell one of the other VTFs. But I will cross that bridge when it comes.


Ddavidson

[Lwang]

Originally posted by Sasha_G
The only VTF-1 driver prototypes I saw did not have dual voice coils. While it is hibernating, I still have a lot of hope about the project. It may turn out to be a stronger design in the end. The idea of using an outboard amp has been thrown around, and may happen. However, I talked with Dr. Hsu yesterday and we do have a cool running, less expensive, sonically accurate 1000 watt plate amp canditade being made for further testing. I'll keep the forum notified of any updates.

From my conversation with Dr. Hsu, I remember him saying about dual voice coils hooked in series. I think I mentioned running them in parallel and using the 500 amp (or something like that). But even then, a $750 amp on a sub with a final price of $1000-$1150 might be a bit out of proportion.

[Sasha_G]

I absolutely agree. We like to stay close to our customers, and most prefer subwoofers under $1K. Any reasonably knowledgeable audio engineer can make a nice subwoofer for multiple thousands of dollars. To us, it is more exciting to make a great subwoofer for a low price.

I wish I understood the electronics more on the VTF-1. :confused: However, its good to know that the good business relationships we continue to develop might result in a 1000 watt amp for this micro-monster.

[Ddavidson]

One thing I noticed again while looking at my VTF-3 and then picture of the VTF-1, was the quite small size of the VTF-1.

I dug up some old magazines and it was reported that the VTF-1 was 15x18x20. The prototype looks smaller than that?

I can not imagine Dr Hsu compromising on size, at the detriment of SQ or relatively decent output. But no doubt its smaller size would be a WAF winner.

If you look like the prototype is back on track with a decent amp, perhaps you could have an open night at your premise in Anaheim to give us a sample? I would buy it anyhow but I would love to hear it against the VTF-3.


Ddavidson

[cschang]

Originally posted by Ddavidson
If you look like the prototype is back on track with a decent amp, perhaps you could have an open night at your premise in Anaheim to give us a sample? I would buy it anyhow but I would love to hear it against the VTF-3.
Ddavidson

I think that is a great idea. Maybe include some prototypes, and the new low cost 5.1 system.

[Ddavidson]

I think that is a great idea. Maybe include some prototypes, and the new low cost 5.1 system.

Not to mention the upcoming TN-X1 (the new variable tunable frequency version of the TN series), ASW12X (new sealed car audio subwoofer), Hsu Ventriloquist 5.1 Speaker System

Then add in the much awaited VTF-1; talks with Dr Hsu and comparisons to the old VTF-3/VTF-2 and you have a receipt for a good night of testing and listening.

IMO the VTF-1 is the subwoofer that would sell the best, mainly because I imagine the VTF series is way out selling the rest of the HSU range. Dr Hsu must surely want to expand the VTF lineup as just about all of the main stream interest is in buying a VTF not a TN series.

The TNs do sound better, but for most average Joe's the WAF of a TN is just never going to make a TN in the house happen. Even many males can not talk themselves into buying a non powered cylinder.

From all reports (even though overblown) SVS is also now finding much more sales interest is swinging towards the square PB series. Us consumers just have been trained to having square boxes and WAF factors play a big part in no 5ft cylinders.

The Ventriloquist 5.1 Speaker System should also be a good seller for Hsu and I imagine a VTF subwoofer finished similar will be also be offered. It would have been nice to see a Ventriloquist 5.1 Speaker System with VTF-2 entered up against the 4 systems in the mini speaker Face Off in June's 2003's Home Theater review. It consisted of the M&K xenon system, Psb Alpha B system, Morel Spero system, and NHT SB2 system. The NHT system won the shootout.

Lets hope a show night can be put together as that VTF-1 has me itching to upgrade.

Ddavidson

[Sasha_G]

That party sounds like a great idea, and Dr. Hsu would love to have a party. Dr. Hsu is quite busy developing the Ventriloquist system for the next month or so (the subwoofers are ready). The VTF-1 is little more than a box, some stuffing, and passive radiators. But it is a box, some stuffing, and passive radiators with great potential. I'm not sure Dr. Hsu will be willing to show the prototype subs when they are in various states of completion. Nobody except his closest friends have heard the VTF-1. He's shown it at the show, but did not play it.

The VTF-1 and the TN-X1 flagships are next on the list of things to do. The Rosewood VTF-3R on schedule for June 1st, so that project will be pretty much finished. I'll see if we can arrange for a gathering after the Stereophile Home Entertainment Expo in early June. Are you guys local? Originally posted by Ddavidson

The Ventriloquist 5.1 Speaker System should also be a good seller for Hsu and I imagine a VTF subwoofer finished similar will be also be offered. It would have been nice to see a Ventriloquist 5.1 Speaker System with VTF-2 entered up against the 4 systems in the mini speaker Face Off in June's 2003's Home Theater review. It consisted of the M&K xenon system, Psb Alpha B system, Morel Spero system, and NHT SB2 system. The NHT system won the shootout.


I hope the Ventriloquist would do well in such a shootout! The entire 5.1 Ventriloquist system will cost about $600 retail, with a minimum advertised price of $550 (estimated).

The NHT SW10 subwoofer that won the Home Theater Mag shootout cost $500 by itself, with the entire 5.1 system ringing in at $1600! There is about a $1K difference in price.

Which leads me back to subwoofers. I'll tell a little about the subs that come with the Ventrilioquist, but can't say too much. The ten inch subwoofer is basically a VTF-2 with an almost identical driver and 25 Hz bass extension. The main difference is that there is no variable tuning, so it is stuck in 25 Hz extension mode and has no max output mode. The cabinet and amp are also different. That is all I can say right now.

I find it interesting that most of the $1000 + systems in the June Home Theater Mag shootout had subwoofers that don't even go below 35 Hz plus or minus 3 db.

Here is a pic of the VTF-1's size (left) compared to the VTF-2. You can see one of the passive radiators on the side. There are two passive radiators and one driver in the front. It is larger than it appears in the picture posted near the top of this thread. I think that the angle of the photo did that.

[DavidD]

I'm local, and I think a get-together is a great idea. Set a date and I'm there!

[Sasha_G]

Cool DavidD. Well post the date on this thread when its happening. Stay tuned to this station.

[DavidD]

That's great, Sasha. I'll look forward to it.

[Ddavidson]

Sasha do not forget to tell us (as soon as company protocol lets you) if the new 1000w amp tests prove encouraging. I want to start saving for that VTF-1 as soon as it becomes known that it will become a real product.

You guys really need a really good flagship to hang your hat on (IMHO). To me that should be a powered box sub which is just a far more conventional looking WAF sub. It will also sell better than a cylinder.

I not in the Anaheim area, but I will make an effort and try to fit into the demo night.


Ddavidson

[cschang]

Count me in as well. My schedule is pretty limited, but I would do what I can as well. And also start saving my pennies.

[Sasha_G]

A Friday would be best. How about the 27th of June at around 6 pm? We'll supply some drinks, chips and dip.

[cschang]

Right now...that works for me!

[DavidD]

That absolutely works for me! I'll be there!

[Ddavidson]

Should work for me as well atm.
The things I do for an upgrade.http://hsuresearch.com/forum/images/icons/icon10.gif

Ddavidson

[Sasha_G]

Okay, well set it for June 27th. I'll post it on the Calandar.

[cschang]

Just found out I can not make the 27th! Bummer. Any chance of getting a private showing?

[DavidD]

I'm still planning on being there. Sorry I won't get to meet you.

[Sasha_G]

Originally posted by cschang
Just found out I can not make the 27th! Bummer. Any chance of getting a private showing?

Cschang,

Sure, you can come by anytime. Just call a day before to make sure the Dr. will be here!

[cschang]

made some changes.....I will be there now!!

curtis