Woo, ordered my VTF-15H!!

[jrittz]

Now it's time to camp my email for status updates!

[Pete_Hsu]

Thank you so very much jrittz! Your order should ship out tomorrow. We are very much looking forward to your in-home impressions! Please let me know if you have any questions when you get the unit.

Sincerely,

[jrittz]

Thank you so very much jrittz! Your order should ship out tomorrow. We are very much looking forward to your in-home impressions! Please let me know if you have any questions when you get the unit.

Sincerely,


I can assure you, I sure will. :) I've made a lot of purchases over the past year and this one excites me the most.

[jrittz]

FedEx says my VTF-15H will be here this Friday!! I can't wait, it's unfortunate that any other shipping method would cost a small fortune.

Somehow need to figure out how to have amazon carry and ship these. :) Free 2-day shipping and 3.99 overnight shipping!

[tgeorge34]

I'm sooooo excited!!!!!!!! After lots of research and begging the wife, I finally ordered my VTF-15H too!!! Can't wait.

[serge71]

Congrats jritzz!...i got mine since only 5 days now and i am more then happy and impressed with the unit!...what tuning i ended up with is one port plugged Q 0.5 and EQ 2....i am sure you will have a great time with the tunings and find wich works best for you!...i will for sure get a second one in the future!.:D

[serge71]

I'm sooooo excited!!!!!!!! After lots of research and begging the wife, I finally ordered my VTF-15H too!!! Can't wait.
congrats to you also so tgeorge34....you wont regret it ....

[jrittz]

Hey tgeorge34, I think I took one of your posts from AH and quoted it over here in another thread asking about port facing etc... :)

Grats on the purchase.

[jrittz]

Anybody know if building a wooden platform about 10" off the floor and placing the sub on top of it will impact the performance of the VTF-15H? Basically where my current VTF2-MK3 sits, there isnt enough room for the new sub but that's because 2.5" to one side of the sub is a baseboard heating/plumbing. If I raise it above that level, I will have enough clearance for the new sub.

[shadyJ]

I doubt raising a sub 10" off the floor in a corner like that will affect the sound significantly. I would have no problem doing that, I don't think you have anything to worry about.

[jrittz]

Ok so I have had my 15H for a few days now and I love it. Now that I think I've talked the wife into letting me keep the VTF2-MK3 as well...Now I have a question about placement.

I have attached a drawing of my living room and I have a couple options for the placement of the VTF2-MK3. Note: The VTF-15H is placed where the red box is and faces left.

My two options would be to put the VTF2 where the blue rectangle is or in the original location #1 where it used to be.

I know I can do the creep method to determine what sounds the best but I would like feedback as to what may be a more ideal position.

I have never manually calibrated a sub before, I just use my Denon's Audyssey MultEQ XT which does a great job with one sub. As far as I understand, that version of Audyssey will not calibrate two subs individually and so I would need to most likely calibrate it manually? This is where I will need help.

The pictures posted earlier in this thread show the orignal VTF2 placement.

[jrittz]

Pictures of my setup...

The VTF2 would go to the left of my left front tower or under my right rear bookshelves.

[Sputter]

Anybody know if building a wooden platform about 10" off the floor and placing the sub on top of it will impact the performance of the VTF-15H? Basically where my current VTF2-MK3 sits, there isnt enough room for the new sub but that's because 2.5" to one side of the sub is a baseboard heating/plumbing. If I raise it above that level, I will have enough clearance for the new sub.

Building a riser will help eliminate "room" mode. So it can help, it'll never be a negative.
For some very good riser builds plus more information on them check over at blu-ray.com.

Jim

[jrittz]

Yeah, I have already built the platform for the 15H but ended up not using it because I got much better sound from the location it is currently placed, behind and to the right of the main seating area.

I just don't know how to calibrate it (two subs). I've read several articles so far about multiple sub setups and I'm still just as confused as I was before reading them.

I already have a Radio Shack SPL meter, purchased the external usb sound blaster, and have all connections for it. I have got REW running in XP Mode...but what I'm missing is this...

I'm ok with the calibration of subs to a specific point and when I start heading in that direction, I always get caught up by questions about calibration from an audyssey stand-point.

I currently have my system calibrated as 7.1 via Audyssey's MultEQ XT and it sounds great. I can easily remove the existing sub and add the VTF2 and calibrate it to a specific decibel level but then I ask myself, I can do that but then will it sound ok because it will most likely use the existing sub calibration of the 15H...I'm sure audyssey changes the eq settings to achieve a flatter response.

I'm pretty damn technical when it comes to electronics but when it comes to what audyssey does and what a simple SPL meter does and how to make them all work together...I get confused and frustrated...very frustrated. I just don't "get it", it's not clicking with me.

That's why I went with the Denon AVR-3311 CI, for the Audyssey MultEQ XT...so I wouldnt have to worry about manually calibrating everything.

I can guarantee that once I "get it" then there will be no turning back and I'll prefer manual calibration over everything else. Until then, I'll keep reading and hoping that one day it will just click and I'll understand.

I see that the test media sent with each sub has the full range of tones for the response curve... 10(maybe not this low), 16, 20, 25, 31.5, 40, and so on... and so I can test each tone with the SPL meter to get the response curve. I understand that with that response curve, I can see where my nulls are (if any) and that two subs are supposed to help with that. But then, does audyssey modify this for a flatter response?

I know I'm rambling but I guess I gotta get this out sometime so that maybe someone out there has gone through the same thing I am now and may be able to help point me in the right direction.

If there's anybody out there that could possibly help or has a link to a great step-by-step beginners guide for this sort of thing, I would GREATLY appreciate it.

Regards,
Jaime

[Sputter]

I know very little about Audyssey maybe this link will help.




http://forum.blu-ray.com/audio-theory-discussion/159948-guide-audyssey-auto-calibration-other-technologies.html

[jrittz]

I'll check it out, thanks for the link.

[jrittz]

Woah, damn...

I just setup my subs and calibrated.

Per the picture posted above (and attached here again):
Sub 1 (VTF2-MK3) in top left corner (Position 1)
Sub 2 (VTF-15H) in lower right corner (Red Box)

One at a time I:
Calibrated Sub 1 with Audyssey to 0db on the AVR
Calibrated Sub 2 with Audyssey to -0.5db on the AVR

Turned on both subs and calibrated all 8 Audyssey positions (A complete Audyssey calibration). The sub level ended at -4.5db which Audyssey adjusted on the AVR.

I tossed in The Hulk to do a quick listen and to my amazement, the subs could be heard but there was damn near zero "effect" or chest thumping sound coming from them.

Could it be that both subs were cancelling each other out?

With only the 15H in the lower right and calibrated alone, I had great results and was thrilled. With the VTF2 in the upper left alone, I had great results as well.

Hopefully I can get some feedback so I can get this resolved. :)

The receiver is 7.2, although, it is still sharing the same LFE signal between the two outputs on the rear of the receiver.

I'm going to run out and get an RCA Y-Splitter and hopefully later tonight, I will try the VTF2 where the blue box is in the lower left.

Regards,
Jaime

[Pete_Hsu]

Hi Jamie,

The subwoofers could be out of phase with each other. Try inverting the phase switch on the VTF-2 MK3 and see if that helps.

Thanks!

Sincerely,

[jrittz]

Ug...

I didn't try changing the phase on the VTF2, I changed the phase on the 15H.

I should have thought of that since the 15H was fine prior to adding the 2nd sub.

[jrittz]

So I guess my question is, between position 1 and the blue square, what do you think would be the optimal setup without going through several calibrations to actually find out?

I would like to try what may be the best spot first in hopes of minimizing my total amount of time spent on calibration.

[jrittz]

Ok so I tried it back in position 1 and with phase adjustments, it's just not working.

I had also tried it where the blue square is and I had much better results. I can't say at this point it is what I expected out of two subs but I havent done a full calibration with it at the blue square either.

Next step, move sub back to blue square, level adjust the subs again, and do a full calibration.

More to come...

[jrittz]

Well, I guess I'm not having much luck with this 2nd sub.

I moved the VTF2 back to the blue square. With only one audyssey pass to calibrate the sub levels it had the volume and kick I was missing. I then proceeded to calibrate it with the 8-point full audyssey calibration and I'm back to square one. Not much kick from the two subs together.

What the f#%k am I doing wrong? I'm beginning to get frustrated to say the least. I'm now on hour four of sub moving and calibrations and I'm worse off than when I started with only one sub.

Guess it's time for sleep and pick back up tomorrow.

[jrittz]

I was just thinking and reading some other forum posts...maybe I'm not doing this the right way...

Having Audyssey do my calibrations for my subs is good or bad?

I have the radio shack SPL meter, an external sound card for my laptop, and whatever else may be needed but I have never really used it as I have only used Audyssey to do my calibrations.
This is where I am caught up. I have read a thread(s) about calibrating with Audyssey and basically it says to run the first measurement, have Audyssey do the calculations, then go into check subwoofer level and if your subwoofer gain is outside of +/- 3db's that I should adjust the gain accordingly and rerun the measurement until I'm within +/- 3db's. So what I've been doing is running one sub at a time and getting them as close to +/- 0db as possible and when I'm satisfied with each individual level, I'll turn them both on and run the full Audyssey calibration and which for me, that's 8 positions.

With one sub, it works awesome and has never failed me. Now with two subs, it's working backwards and my output goes down and not just by a little either. Now the correlation with this calibration method and my question about manual calibration would be that if I calibrate a sub with the SPL meter to 72-75db's and then I run Audyssey, in my head, I'm convinced that Audyssey will adjust the AVR's gain to -12db's which is the furthest it can go down to compensate for my sub gain being set too high. Am I completely nuts? Or am I backwards and regardless of what the AVR and Audyssey does, I should re-calibrate my subwoofers after I run Audyssey to the 72-75db range with the AVR gain set to +/-0 for the subwoofer?

I'm just not seeing the "big picture" as far as Audyssey vs manual calibration goes. To me I guess I see it this way; why would calibrating my subs with an SPL meter help at all if in the end Audyssey is just going to change it it?

I don't get it and I wish it did. One of these days I'll read the right post and a light bulb will go on upstairs and then, it'll make sense. It seems that I'm missing something, probably small, that links what I do know and what I've read.

If anybody out there with this kind of experience wouldn't mind helping me out via IM or PM's or something, I would more than appreciate it. Once I get over this mental block of a hump, I feel I would open up a whole new world of HT understanding.

Regards,
Jaime

[rwjr]

When I ran Audyssey, I went back and manually adjusted all my levels. When I calibrated, the first thing to correct was the crossovers. I set them all to 80Hz. Next, I used my SPL meter in position 1 and went through the manual setup to see where my levels were. Every channel was 70-72dB, and the sub was 70. So I adjusted each channel to 75dB and the sub to 80dB.

Basically, I found that before manual adjustments, listening to movies at reference level only gave me 100dB peaks and the system seemed to have a lack of umph. I could turn it up to +5dB and it was better. Once I made the manual adjustments, I got the 105dB peaks at reference level. Movies are better now. I think the biggest problem was my sub level was set too low by Audyssey.

[scottfox]

Jaime,
I too have a VTF2.3 It is co-located next to my couch. In a 12x 20x9 room that has an open doorway to the kitchen. Getting Upgrade-itis! looking at the 15H & CHT's 18" sealed sub. How much better is the 15H compared to the 2.3? Does it just play louder, or does it truly dig deeper, & have more midbass slam that hits you in the chest?

[dnoyeb]

Probably just put them both in the same place in the middle of the floor. Right next to each other. Also, try turning the Audyssey calibration off just to hear what it sounds like. You should get good strong bass and sound without Audyssey. It may not be flat, but the chest thumping volume should be there to verify that everything is working properly.

Them keep the bass going as you move your subs into their proper positions. Then take a listen and see if anything sounds different.

[RickD1225]

I don't have an experience with Audyssey, but I too bought a 15H to add to an existing Klipsch RSW-12 sub. I tried everything I could to get them to play well together using REW and a MiniDSP equalizer. It just didn't seem to work, I got better results using just the 15H. I have since replaced the MiniDSP with a SMS-1 which is much easier to work with and you can watch the effects of the changes in real time (you can do it with REW also, but it is more difficult). The frequency graph was way smoother with just the 15H. I am going to sell the Klipsch and get a second 15H. I do have a large room 4500+ sq ft.

[45_ACP_AUTO]

Congrats on your purchase, welcome to the HSU family.:D

[JerryMeeker]

One at a time I:
Calibrated Sub 1 with Audyssey to 0db on the AVR
Calibrated Sub 2 with Audyssey to -0.5db on the AVR

Turned on both subs and calibrated all 8 Audyssey positions (A complete Audyssey calibration). The sub level ended at -4.5db which Audyssey adjusted on the AVR.



I don't understand what process you used here. It sounds like you ran two separate Audyssey calibrations, the first with one sub on, and the second with the other sub on. This doesn't work at all. Each subsequent calibration forgets any previous calibrations.

The only way you can run Audyssey is to have them both turned on. And you cannot achieve optimum bass response unless you have a way of measuring what is going on. Have you considered learning how to run REW measurements?

So, the process has been described in this forum a number of times:

1. Gain-match the two subs as your first step. Instructions on how to do this can be found on this site.

2. Using a measurement tool like REW, determine the optimum placement for the two subs together. If you optimize placement for each sub separately, this doesn't mean they are optimized together. Corner placement is often the worst placement. Could a sub be located in the middle of the side wall?

3. If you can't place the subs equidistant from the primary listening point, there will be some compromise in sound quality. This is a fact of life in most challenging listening environments like yours.

4. Consider bass equalization if you really want the best results. The SVS AS-EQ1 handles two subs that are at different distances, and does a great job. Unfortunately, no equalizer can work miracles, so it is extremely important that you have optimized placement first.

5. Finally, run Audyssey MultEQ XT calibration in your AVR. This will produce a result as close to reference as possible, given the placement limitations. If "reference" bass is not strong enough for you, you can raise the bass levels by adjusting the bass trim in the AVR, not on the subs.

And finally, if one sub sounds better, why not stick with one sub?

[jrittz]

JM...

I used REW to find the two best positions for the subs, individually and together. The specific quote you have is exactly what I did to gain-match the two subs in the position...then after the gain was matched (for each of their respective positions), I ran a full calibration of Audyssey with both subs on.

I don't recall saying one sounds best vs. both together? I may had referred to the fact that with one specific setup..each sub held their own but after adding the second it seem to nullfiy some of the effect but remember, I was a lot newer to dual sub calibration while I was going through a lot of the trial and error of placement and calibration.

Another reason why I don't just use one sub is that I purchased the 2.3 for ~$600 and I didn't want to try and sell it for $400-$425..that's a big hit for only owning it for 2-3 months. It was more principle than anything else...and it still is. :)

I ended up going with 15H in top left and 2.3 in botton left. I feel I have a good balance and it sounds good. I still don't think it's perfect but I have resorted to thinking my room isnt ideal. I don't have the option for mid-room/wall placement. It would be an eyesore and awkward. I have considered re-doing the basement and making that my dedicated HT room but I'm still mulling over ideas. One of the big reasons I don't just do that is my furniture doesnt fit down the stairs and I'd have to buy a specific size in order for it to fit...another 2k investment that I'm not ready to dive into.

scottfox...

The 15H is truely superior to the 2.3 all the way around. There's nothing I can say bad about the 15H.

[jrittz]

Jaime,
I too have a VTF2.3 It is co-located next to my couch. In a 12x 20x9 room that has an open doorway to the kitchen. Getting Upgrade-itis! looking at the 15H & CHT's 18" sealed sub. How much better is the 15H compared to the 2.3? Does it just play louder, or does it truly dig deeper, & have more midbass slam that hits you in the chest?


All of the above.. :)

[JerryMeeker]

I still don't think it's perfect but I have resorted to thinking my room isnt ideal.

Unfortunately, the reality most of us face is the limitation of the room. It sounds like you have taken the right steps, except for experimenting with bass equalization.

[jrittz]

Yeah, I'm not sure what that is...you talking about with like the SMS-1?

[Sputter]

Yeah, I'm not sure what that is...you talking about with like the SMS-1?

Any parametric eq will help, especially in real time. (for placement help and EQing)
Audyssey works the time domain as I understand it.

Combining Aud with parametic would be sweet.
I'm currently considering getting an AVR with XT32 (i believe that's the latest).
I'm not worried about the amp part because I use the XPA-5.

Jim

[JerryMeeker]

Yeah, I'm not sure what that is...you talking about with like the SMS-1?

I own (or have owned) three methods for bass equalization: the SMS-1, the SVS AS-EQ1 (Audyssey), and now a Denon 4311 with Audyssey Sub EQ HT. The last two are essentially the same technologies, and perform leaps and bounds better than the SMS-1.

[Sputter]

I own (or have owned) three methods for bass equalization: the SMS-1, the SVS AS-EQ1 (Audyssey), and now a Denon 4311 with Audyssey Sub EQ HT. The last two are essentially the same technologies, and perform leaps and bounds better than the SMS-1.

I beg to differ :) sms and audyssey eq different things. It's apples and oranges. They are both good tools to work together as each performs a different function.

[JerryMeeker]

I beg to differ :) sms and audyssey eq different things. It's apples and oranges. They are both good tools to work together as each performs a different function.

Well, I am basing my opinion on first-hand experience. However, to get other opinions, simply go to the AS-EQ1 forum (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=793007), search on SMS1, and see what is being said.

[45_ACP_AUTO]

I own (or have owned) three methods for bass equalization: the SMS-1, the SVS AS-EQ1 (Audyssey), and now a Denon 4311 with Audyssey Sub EQ HT. The last two are essentially the same technologies, and perform leaps and bounds better than the SMS-1.


No way Jose, not even close my friend. You better go do some more reading. The SMS-1 is hands down the best Sub EQ on the market year to date. I have sold and tried them all.