HSU MBM-12 Delay Device Recomendations

[Bailman]

Hello.

It seems that most are using their MBM-12(s) upfront. I wish to attempt them near-field behind listening position as DR. HSU designed them for and don't know what products are available or HSU recommended.

[spyboy]

Hello.

It seems that most are using their MBM-12(s) upfront. I wish to attempt them near-field behind listening position as DR. HSU designed them for and don't know what products are available or HSU recommended.

I am pretty sure that the least expensive digital delay recommended by Dr. Hsu is the Behringer 2024 available for $99.99 delivered from American Musical Supply.

http://www.americanmusical.com/Item--i-BEH-DSP2024P-List

For close to $300, the Behringer DCX 2024 provides: 1) digital delay, 2) crossover and; 3) EQ functions.

http://www.americanmusical.com/Item--i-BEH-DCX2496-List

[bsoko]

I am pretty sure that the least expensive digital delay recommended by Dr. Hsu is the Behringer 2024 available for $99.99 delivered from American Musical Supply.

http://www.americanmusical.com/Item--i-BEH-DSP2024P-List

For close to $300, the Behringer DCX 2024 provides: 1) digital delay, 2) crossover and; 3) EQ functions.

http://www.americanmusical.com/Item--i-BEH-DCX2496-List


Here is a fully automatic EQ unit for subwoofer only from Finland that has gotten good reviews http://verkkokauppa.planeetta.net/epages/Planeetta.sf/en_GB/?ObjectPath=/Shops/vlsi/Products/8033B/SubProducts/8033B-0001. I have one and love it. Setup is about 5 minutes then it is good to go. I control two MBM-12's and two HSU 3.3's with the one unit. For more info on what it does: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1028464 and http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/bfd-forum/11699-testing-dspeaker-anti-mode-8033-a.html.

Bill

[cschang]

Bill....I got a used 8033. I think it is a great unit, but it does not offer any kind of adjustable delay.

[bsoko]

Bill....I got a used 8033. I think it is a great unit, but it does not offer any kind of adjustable delay.

With my old ears I never noticed any delay in the subs.

Bill

[cschang]

With my old ears I never noticed any delay in the subs.

Bill
Nothing to do with age. Some people seem to be more sensitive to it than others.

With your MBMs and 3.3's at different distances to your listening position, some people want an adjustable delay device so that the sound from the the two arrive at the listening position at the same time.

The same issue applies to anyone that has a multiple subwoofer setup, not just the MBM.

[bsoko]

Nothing to do with age. Some people seem to be more sensitive to it than others.

With your MBMs and 3.3's at different distances to your listening position, some people want an adjustable delay device so that the sound from the the two arrive at the listening position at the same time.

The same issue applies to anyone that has a multiple subwoofer setup, not just the MBM.

In a crude way, doesn't using the reciever's pink tone via a spl meter do this? I mean if you set each sub up at 72 db no matter what the distance, won't the spl & sub gain do this?

Bill

[cschang]

No, because the speed of sound is the same no matter what the SPL/dB.

[bsoko]

No, because the speed of sound is the same no matter what the SPL/dB.

Then why would someone want a delay device for the subs?

Bill

[cschang]

Like I mentioned....if the MBM and true subwoofer are at different distances from the listener, the sound arrives at different times.

If the MBM is closer, the sound from it will arrive first.

So if the MBM was playing a note that was at 100hz, and at the same time the true sub was playing a note at 40hz, and they were meant to played at the same time....without a delay on the MBM, the 100hz note would arrive at the listening position earlier.

Another way of looking at it is if there was kick drum being played and it was 50hz, it would have a 100hz harmonic that would played by the MBM, that harmonic would be out of sync without a delay device on the MBM.

We are talking milliseconds.....and of course larger the difference in distance from the listening position to the MBM and true sub, the larger the time delay.

Some people seem to perceive it more than others.....the same goes for time coherent speaker designs.

Time delay has nothing to do with SPL or FR. That's why the same issue arises in an multiple sub setup.

[bsoko]

Curtis, Thanks!

Bill

[Bailman]

I am pretty sure that the least expensive digital delay recommended by Dr. Hsu is the Behringer 2024 available for $99.99 delivered from American Musical Supply.

http://www.americanmusical.com/Item--i-BEH-DSP2024P-List

For close to $300, the Behringer DCX 2024 provides: 1) digital delay, 2) crossover and; 3) EQ functions.

http://www.americanmusical.com/Item--i-BEH-DCX2496-List


Hey Spyboy!

Still frequenting the HTSpot?

Thanks for the info. I followed the links and had a looksie. It seems like it's as complicated to get it up and running the way I need it to as was the BFD before snapbug posted his instructions.:eek:

[Bailman]

Hello Bill,

are you using the MCACC after you first run the 8033?

[bsoko]

Hello Bill,

are you using the MCACC after you first run the 8033?

Yes. Calibrate your subs to reference or hotter, then turn on the 8033 and run the setup, then run MCACC.

Bill

[greenhorn]

Say guys, I was wondering if one could use the mbm by Hsu with other subs manufactured by other sub companies? Is the mbm only designed to work with Hsu subs? Furthermore does one need to purchase the eq's,delay devices,ect. if one "runs" the mbm with a single sub? Thanks.

[cacihome]

It works with any sub...As long as the distance from the sub to your listening position, and the distance from the MBM to your listening position is not very different....its ok.

[spyboy]

Say guys, I was wondering if one could use the mbm by Hsu with other subs manufactured by other sub companies? Is the mbm only designed to work with Hsu subs? Furthermore does one need to purchase the eq's,delay devices,ect. if one "runs" the mbm with a single sub? Thanks.

The MBM-12 is designed to work with any deep bass sub. You would want a deep bass sub that is capable of outputting at least 105 db down to 25Hz or deeper.

It doesn't matter if you are running only one deep bass sub. Some people are more sensitive to the time delay than others.

You could try it without a delay device and see if you perceive a problem. If you want a delay device, the Behringer 2024 from American Musical Supply for $99.99 is the least expensive delay recommended by Dr. Hsu.

[greenhorn]

Thanks for the quick respones guys. I'm not even sure I need this "mid bass module", but from what I read about it on Hsu's website it sounds like it makes sense. But if my sub plays from say 20hz to 100hz (in room extension being 2-5hz deeper) why is the mbm even necessary? And wouldn't I need to "tune" my existing sub (wouldn't even know how to do that) to a low frequency to keep it from trying to play (if that's the reason for tuning it in the first place) what the mbm is helping it cover on the top hz end? Thanks a bunch guys.

[Pete_Hsu]

There are a lot of benefits to having an MBM-12 with a true subwoofer, irrespective of the brand of true subwoofer. For one, the MBM tends to have much higher mid/upper bass headroom compared to most subs. Also, using a two way system will allow one to optimally position each unit for best mid-bass and best deep bass response. And finally, intermodulation distortion will be much lower, and dynamic range will be much higher, since one will have dedicated units handling mid-bass and deep bass. As long as the true subwoofer has a built-in low pass crossover, then they can use that control to filter out bass above ~ 50Hz from the true subwoofer so that the true sub and MBM don't overlap. Otherwise, if the true sub has no built-in crossover, then one can use something like an F-mod.

[greenhorn]

Thanks for the reply Pete. I don't know if I have this low pass filter is it manually controlled on the sub like a gain knob? If it is a knob I don't have it. I just have a phase and a gain knob. But I'm so new to all of this (ht stuff) I'm not even sure the mbm would make a discernible difference to my ears. I'm just something of a perfectionist and never want to feel as if I'm missing out on anything. That's what had me curious about the mbm in the first place. P.S. Incidentally what consitutes a "true" subwoofer? I always just thought that the saying was just cool marketing jargon on the part of Hsu Research used to get customers to identify the "Hsu" (rhymes with true) brand with being the "only" sub one should consider. Kinda disappointed if it isn't, I thought that was slick. Maybe I thought too much into it. Thanks, Jerry.

[Pete_Hsu]

You are very welcome Jerry!

Sounds like you don't have a built-in crossover on your sub, as it would be seen as a dial with different crossover frequencies that could be selected. So what you would need is an F-mod (available at partsexpress.com) or something similar to keep higher frequencies out of the true sub.

Sincerely,

[greenhorn]

Wow! Thanks for repling so quickly I was afraid of that, I must of been editing my post as you were responding to the post. You didn't have a chance to see and respond to the P.S. I edited in. Thanks,Jerry.

[Pete_Hsu]

Hey Jerry,

When I say true subwoofer, I just mean a subwoofer that can effectively handle deeper bass (down to, say, 15-30Hz) with flat response and good output capability. So the MBM-12 would be a mid-bass module, while our STF/VTF/ULS subs are the true subwoofers.

Dr. Hsu's original cylindrical subwoofers were one of the first to effectively play down to 16Hz, and that's where the saying "true subwoofers" probably came from.

Sincerely,

[greenhorn]

Hey Jerry,

When I say true subwoofer, I just mean a subwoofer that can effectively handle deeper bass (down to, say, 15-30Hz) with flat response and good output capability. So the MBM-12 would be a mid-bass module, while our STF/VTF/ULS subs are the true subwoofers.

Dr. Hsu's original cylindrical subwoofers were one of the first to effectively play down to 16Hz, and that's where the saying "true subwoofers" probably came from.

Sincerely,
Gotch Pete. Thanks for the quick reply yet again. Thanks for explaining that to me you could almost say it's a Hsu phrase since it originated with the Doc. By the way why doesn't Hsu sell the cylindrical subs? I checked out the Fmod on partsexpresscom. They give a "high" and "low" version for each (frequency?) but which does one know to buy? Does the "high" pass the low to the other device directing the high to the first in the chain ? and visa versa? Thanks, Pete.

[Pete_Hsu]

Jerry, we are hoping to re-introduce the TN1220HO cylinder sub either later this year or early next year.

Make sure to get the low-pass 50Hz F-mod, because you only want low frequencies below 50Hz to pass through to the sub.

Sincerely,

[john.]

OMG, Pete you're the man! That FMOD solution is perfect for what I've been searching for! TN1220HO coming back?! Thats crazy, I was just at a friends house the other night listening to some music (he has the original tn1220 with upgraded 500 watt hsu amp), and he mentioned reading something about the 1220 coming back. That's awesome, has there been talk about this somewhere else?

[greenhorn]

Jerry, we are hoping to re-introduce the TN1220HO cylinder sub either later this year or early next year.

Make sure to get the low-pass 50Hz F-mod, because you only want low frequencies below 50Hz to pass through to the sub.

Sincerely,
10/4 Pete,Thanks. Should I decide to try the mbm I can call you @ Hsu or write you on the forum to get a step by step as to how to hook it up? I will keep my eyes open for the cylindrical sub offering later sounds intriguing will it have a "base" plate built in to fire down on to? Thanks, Jerry.

[Pete_Hsu]

OMG, Pete you're the man! That FMOD solution is perfect for what I've been searching for! TN1220HO coming back?! Thats crazy, I was just at a friends house the other night listening to some music (he has the original tn1220 with upgraded 500 watt hsu amp), and he mentioned reading something about the 1220 coming back. That's awesome, has there been talk about this somewhere else?

Jon, I think Dr. Hsu has been considering bringing back the TN1220HO for quite a few months now. We still have some 500w external amps too which can drive up to two TN series subwoofers.

[Pete_Hsu]

10/4 Pete,Thanks. Should I decide to try the mbm I can call you @ Hsu or write you on the forum to get a step by step as to how to hook it up? I will keep my eyes open for the cylindrical sub offering later sounds intriguing will it have a "base" plate built in to fire down on to? Thanks, Jerry.

Sure thing Jerry, you can post here or call or email with any questions. I would recommend taking a quick look at the MBM-12 owner's manual on the product page too.

I don't think it would have any base plate. It would be quite similar to the regular TN1220HO.

[greenhorn]

Will do Pete,Thanks. I don't have any familiarity with the cylinder subs you guys sold. I suppose I could "Google" the model # & see what I come up with. Thanks for the offered and continued help as well. Jerry.

[john.]

Pete, I asked if it had been discussed elsewhere because my friend doesn't read the HSU forums, but had heard the 1220s were possibly being reintroduced. Anyways, what kinda price point could we expect for a dual tube with 500 watt hsu amp setup?

[Pete_Hsu]

I'm not quite sure John, but definitely below $1500 for two TN1220HO's + 500w amp. So probably somewhere in between $1000 and $1500.

Sincerely,

[Pete_Hsu]

Will do Pete,Thanks. I don't have any familiarity with the cylinder subs you guys sold. I suppose I could "Google" the model # & see what I come up with. Thanks for the offered and continued help as well. Jerry.

My pleasure to help!

[john.]

well now you have really peaked my interest Pete. Looks like I may hold off on a sub purchase for a pair of 1220s, pending the price with the 500 watt amp.... mmmm, so many choices. I always wanted that sub and it was discontinued right before I was ready to pull the trigger haha

[rick240]

Any thoughts of integrating delay circuitry into the MBM itself?