TN-X1 / ASW12X Sub Woofer's

[Ddavidson]

When will you be releasing the newly designed TN-X1 Subwoofer? I see you already mention about it in your new 500A amplifier PDF file.

I also understand that this new subwoofer can be set for maximum output (25Hz) or maximum extension (18Hz) like the VTF series subwoofers. Do we know the sort of sizes that this TN-X1 subwoofer will be? Or better yet any pictures on the net? The rumor was it was to be shown at Vegas in Jan along with the new ASW12X automotive subwoofer which was to be in a sealed cylindrical cabinet.



Ddavidson

[Sasha_G]

Ddavidson,

The TN-X1 development has slowed right now, with some other big projects taking favor. There have been a few hitches in the TN-X1 development, but none so great as to derail it. It is similar to the TN-1220 but with some small innovations and changes.

The ASW1203 car sub driver will be coming out May 1st, although the enclosed version with the sealed cylindrical is coming out late in the year.

[Ddavidson]

Thanks for that info Sasha_G.
I am sure a lot of people are interested in what are the differences actually are between the old ASW1202 driver and new ASW1203 driver?

The old ASW1202 was:

Size:= 12 inches

Fs (Free-air resonance) = 23 Hz

Qms = 4

Qes = 0.34

Qts= 0.32

Vas= 140 liters

Re= 3.25 ohms

Sd= 0.051 m2

Pd = 250W rms

Xmax= +/- 13 mm

Well since the TN-X1 development has slowed, and my favorite long time coming VTF-1 (which I had followed since the old Hi-Fi show) has gone into deep sleep mode. I would love to know what big projects are on the near term Hsu agenda? It seems to me a non round flagship model (aka VTF-1) and perhaps a fill in priced $650 VTF model would make the Hsu lineup more complete.

The boxed flagship to compete with all brands is what really needs attention. I like many others would love Hsu to have a decent priced flagship that offers very low distortion. Of course it must have excellent output performance and be wife friendly (decent looking).

The VTF-1 was to be that sub, but as history shows I had to settle for the VTF-3 after a long frustrating wait for VTF-1 news. I would imagine the sales of the VTF series would be very much stronger than TN series, which if I am right should clearly show where the interest is. (box subs)
Now about that MIA - VTF-1.

Ddavidson

[Sasha_G]

The other projects include a low cost 6.1 home theater speaker system. We demonstrated the initial prototypes at CES 2003. I can't go into too many details.

What follows is a rough draft of the product description for the ASW1203. Dr. Hsu will provide me with some of the other specs later.

An extremely rugged 12 inch car subwoofer that works in small enclosures down to .5 cu. ft . Our new car sub offers even more bang for the buck. We’ve added more output capacity. The old ASW1202 was measured at 120 dB at 12.5 Hz in TNs car. With a higher power handling and more excursion, the ASW1203 can get louder. The Xmas is plus or minus 20 mm, over 50% more than the ASW1202. The maximum RMS power handling is now rated at 400 watts. Tight, exceptional bass with quick transients.

-Recommended RMS power of 100-400 Watts
-Recommended Sealed Box Dimensions: .5 to 1.6cu.ft. The lower the size of the box, the greater amplification needed. For the flattest frequency response, we do not recommend a ported box or free air usage in car applications.
-Impedance: 4 Ohms
-Ship-weight 17lbs

-Rugged Butyl-Rubber surround for extended life and stability during peak excursion.
-4 layer copper voice coil
-Steel basket
-The connection between the magnet and basket has been reinforced to make it more rugged.
-Super strong, progressive roll poly-cotton spider for 10 times the life of standard cotton spiders
-Carefully chosen lead wires to avoid friction during peak excursion.
-Vented Bumped back plate long linear excursion and cooling
-large, double stack magnet assembly

[Ddavidson]

Thanks Sasha.
I will be interested to see and hear the low cost 6.1 system that Dr Hsu puts together. He certainly has an art for putting out good bass, so only time will tell if that quality extends to the rest of the frequencies.

You should get some photos and prices of the car woofers as none are on the site from what I can see. As a long time Hsu owner I still think you need a VTF-1 type flagship but then again that's just my opinion. Did I hear that the VTF-3R is $1149 ? What will the VTF-2R be then ?


Ddavidson

[Ddavidson]

Sasha
One quick correction to what you said above. TN actually did not test the ASW1202 driver but he did test the previous ASW1201 driver. The 1202 by all accounts was capable of much better performance than the older 1201. which did 120Db at 12.5 Hz in TNs - Vette


The ASW1201's speaker looks pretty ordinary. A treated paper cone, thick foam surround, and stamped frame are all the norm, but the double-stacked magnet, bumped back plate, and large spider signal serious bass intent. Indeed, this speaker is superlative in the excursion department. The suspension has 17.8 mm of linear stroke and the motor allows the use of 13.9 mm of it. Our current stroke champion (the Crystal CMP-12, which was tested in Nov/Dec 97) has 2 mm more travel, but its priced $260 more than the ASW1201 speaker alone, and $130 more than the whole package.

Remaining Thiele-Small parameters include a free-air resonance of 25.5 Hz, Qms of 4.57, Qes of 0.28, Qts of 0.26, Vas of 4.7 cubic feet, and Re of 4.16 ohms.




Ddavidson

[Sasha_G]

Thanks Ddavidson,

That's true. He did measure the ASW-1201. I'll make that correction.

I would like to note that according to Dr. Hsu, the primary difference between the ASW1202 and its predicesor was the the rubber surround. The output capability was about the same, he says.

[Ddavidson]

Sasha I take it that the upcoming 6.1 system is the BIC/HSU system ?
Thank you for checking that TN used and tested the 1201 driver not the 1202. I know several people who have had great results using the 1202 in a DIY sub so the 1203 should keep the reputation strong. Will the 1203 be tested by a Car Audio mag?

http://www.shows.soundstagelive.com/shows/ces2003/jan10d/hsu_speaker.jpg

http://www.shows.soundstagelive.com/shows/ces2003/jan11a/standout_hsu.jpg

Hsu Research and BIC combined their resources to produce a new home-theater speaker system made up of four very small satellite speakers, a center-channel speaker, and a subwoofer derived from Hsu Research's VTF-2. Driving this impressive prototype system was a $200 Pioneer receiver "from Costco," a $90 Sony CD carousel player, and a $150 Pioneer DVD player. The sound was surprisingly coherent, with tight bass reaching a claimed 25Hz at high volume levels. The expected price of this system? $699.

Ddavidson

[Sasha_G]

Originally posted by Ddavidson
Sasha I take it that the upcoming 6.1 system is the BIC/HSU system ?


Correct. Not a lot of people know about it yet, but we are trying to break the status quo for sound quality in this price range. It should also look a lot nicer than what is seen in those photos of early prototypes.

Most mini-satellite speaker systems have holes in the bass response.

Walking blindfolded into a room playing a typical small satellite home theater system, an experienced listener will notice little output in the 100 to 200 Hz range and almost no output below 40-50 Hz. Parts of the male voice, as well as instruments such as the cello and saxophone, sound distant or are simple not there. Ken Pohlmann in the April 2003 Sound & Vision complained “small cabinets without real woofers simply cannot reproduce the all-important bottom end of classical music. The gap between the subwoofer’s upper limits and where the satellites give up the ghost cuts out the balls of Beethoven, the warmth of Brahms, the power of Wagner.” These systems do not deliver much 100 to 200 Hz bass in either the satellites or the subwoofer. Routing the bass to the subwoofer as a solution ruins the sound stage because the subwoofer, which is often placed to the side of the listener or in a corner, should not create directional sounds.

Hsu Research addresses this issue with the Hsu Ventriloquist 5.1 System. Instead of dumping the upper bass altogether, the notes are routed through a larger and more powerful patented-pending center channel that uses larger woofers to fill the 100-200 Hz “hole”. Most people do not mind a slightly larger center channel, and this allows the satellites to remain small enough to hide in the room’s decor. The result is lifelike, realistic, and accurate sound with a sound-stage just as spacious as other small satellite systems.

Most listeners also notice that inexpensive home theater systems may have punchy bass, but not much deep bass. The bass will be handled by Hsu subwoofers that go deep. The exact details on these systems will be revealed in the (very?) near future. I hope that this leak is good enough for now :D One more thing: estimated prices are $500 to $650 for the 5.1 systems.

As far as the ASW1203 being tested by a car audio mag, we have been contacted by the largest car audio mag and will be lending them a sample. It looks like Tom Nousaine is going to be the tester. It is our longest throw subwoofer so far in a 12 incher, giving it more output capacity. Dr. Hsu really pushed the excursion while still maintaining cone control. The Q (Qts and Qes) is lower than most competitors and is very similar to the ASW1202.

[Ddavidson]

Sasha,
I know what you mean with small mini sub/sat systems. The hole in the frequency response can be as big as the Golden Gate. Trouble is the subs location becomes noticable if you crossover too high. But it sounds like Hsu have been working hard on finding a balance. This should really throw out a challenge to the new Velodyne Deco mini-satellite speaker system ($1149) tessted in Perfect Visions June edition.

It also clearly shows that factory direct pricing is for the benefit of us the consumer, as there are far too many benefits to not adding a money absorbing middle man. Which brings me to the fact of why the Vtf-2 has not cleaned up the Perfect Vision Editors Choice for under $800? It is not up against anything hard as the winners where the Paradigm PDR-12, Definitive Tech ProSub 100T, PSB Subsonic 5i, and Gallo MPS-150. The little Vtf-2 plays louder, deeper and tighter yet is only $499. I see you do not advertise in Perfect Vision so that may explain why no Hsu testing?

Now you have spilled some more insider info http://hsuresearch.com/forum/images/icons/icon10.gif you will have to give everyone hear some idea of exactly when this year we may see this HSU Ventriloquist 5.1 System?

I really look forward to TN's test of the 1203, as Hsu drivers are very underestimated by the fancy car audio fanatics. I see we have some car audio fanatics posting on this board. You should keep the board fully informed of upcoming reviews, as it must be good brownie points to show off yet more praise of Hsu's performance/cost ratio.




Ddavidson

[tdekany]

I've ""talked""( e mail) with TN in the past - last year and I do like him. Simply because he answers your questions. I can't wait for his rewiew, although I doubt that the ASW 1203 will beat out the JL 12W7 or the ID MAXX 12s (his ""best"" choice 12incher).
In any case I am dying to see what he has to say about the ASW1203s. I'll give you my report hopefully next week.

[Ddavidson]

I doubt that the ASW 1203 will beat out the JL 12W7 or the ID MAXX 12s (his ""best"" choice 12incher).

Everone still needs to remember that there is much more to a subwoofers performance than just high SPL. I find each sub exibits a certain sonic signature, so tonality / tightness of the subwoofer is a very big issue for me when it comes time to choosing what to buy.

The car audio fanatics sure might like talking about car audio systems that can do 170dB+, but lets be real; "You are not going to have ear drums for very long at those pressure levels".http://hsuresearch.com/forum/images/icons/icon10.gif

I'll give you my report hopefully next week

I am sure the board will love to hear what you think of the 1203. It would also be interesting to hear what enclosure changes, amp changes etc and a comparision to the 1202s you ran previously.


I've ""talked""( e mail) with TN in the past - last year and I do like him. Simply because he answers your questions.

Although I do not know him, from all accounts TN is a good guy. He certainly knows a hell of a lot about subwoofers. His tests are a reference around the audio sites on the internet. Don Keele and Richard Hardesty are also two other great subwoofer reviewers. However TN is religious about his testing method consistancy, so I tend to trust his facts and figures a lot.



Ddavidson

[tdekany]

My sub amp has been an MTX 2300. I think it is really underpowering the 1202s.
The new amp is on it's way: JL Audio 500/1. Much better amp.
The sub enclosure will remain the same - we will just drop the new subs in (1.5 c.i./woofer) .

[cschang]

Hsu Ventriloquist 5.1 System

If you need any real world testing....I think it would work great in my bedroom!

Also...I think the server's clock is off by an hour.

curtis