Bass Management with 1220's & 500 watt amp.

[spyboy]

I have been looking hard at the 1220's. The plug in modules on the amp seem like a great idea. However, in posting questions about high-pass crossovers on HTM and AVS, it seems that there might be a problem.

The standard xo's on the amp are 51 Hz. One person suggested that using the 51 Hz xo I will lose most of the bass in the LFE channel of my receiver.

Now I am puzzled. Is this correct? If it is correct is there a simple workaround?

Thanks

Artie

[Dudley]

You can also get different crossovers for the amp if you don't think 51 will work.

[spyboy]

Dudley

That would mean having to change the xo modules every time I go from stereo to DD/DTS.

[cschang]

you do not have to use the crossover on the 1220 and just let the receiver handle the crossover point.

[craigsub]

NOW .... Would you PLEASE order your 1220's ? I am dying to fine out how you like them.l.. :)

[Sasha_G]

Curtis is right. When using a Dolby Digital compatible receiver (anything with a discreet LFE channel), you do not need to use the 500 watt amp's crossover. The crossover can be handled digitally by the receiver and you can have the subwoofer play the entire LFE range.

Another benefit is that when you set the receiver to SMALL, bass management is engaged and the subwoofer will play all the deep bass for the main speakers.

The crossover will work in 2 channel music as well as sorround sound, so you only need to set it once.

[Active Speaker]

Or you can do what I do: Connect the sub between the receiver and the speakers using the high & low pass connections, & set the receiver to no sub, all bass to main speakers. Are you finally getting a 1220, Craig?

[craigsub]

I run my basement system like that... Dr. Hsu and I are having too much fun with the VTF-3's now... but some form of even higher end Hsu will be in my possession before too long...

[Ddavidson]

Are you finally getting a 1220
Been there - done that. Just don't remember what amp or how many ports it had. http://www.hsuresearch.com/forum/images/icons/icon10.gif

Ddavidson

[cschang]

I got an email from spyboy.....it makes his issue more clear....here it is:

---------------

I posted a thread on HSU Forum about using the 51 Hz crossover for low-pass and high-pass (these are the default modules). My mains are quite good down to at least 35 Hz, and I have the receiver set to Large for the mains, and the receiver also has a setting called subwoofer ReMix that will put the
lows into both the sub and the mains. In your response over on the HSU
Forum you wrote

"You do not have to use the crossover on the 1220 and just let the receiver handle the crossover."


As I mentioned, my receiver has a 100Hz xo for stereo. This is my area of
concern. On DVD I'm satisfied with what the results I am getting now.

As you are aware, allowing frequencies above about 80 hz can draw attention
to the location of the sub in the room. So back we come to the amp's low
pass and high pass xo's of 51 Hz. My goal is to retain the 51 Hz xo's for
stereo and let the receiver handle the bass management for DD and DTS.

So the question is: will the 51 Hz high pass xo's prevent the 1220's from
getting the full LFE frequency range that is up to 120 Hz?. It seems to me
that the high-pass setting of 51 Hz on the 500 watt sub amp will not allow
the frequencies from 51-120 Hz to reach the sub(s), but would allow me to
have both the low and high-pass xo's at 51 for stereo.


Perhaps I am missunderstanding something, but so far I don't see how to how
to gain the benefits of the 51Hz xo for stereo without losing 51-120 for DD,
DTS

[craigsub]

Artie - You will have to defeat the Hsu Crossover for movies in that configuration. If you can locate the 1220's close to your mains, you will be able to use the 100 Hz Receiver Crossover with no problem, and defeat the Hsu Crossover.

If You cannot, I would recommend using the crossover in the Hsu for everything, and set your receiver to send all bass to the mains, no subwoofer selected, that is assuming you receiver has pre-outs for the mains, which most better receivers do. This will give you 51 Hz on down to the 1220's, which will be killer, whether on music OR movies, and a LOT of room flexibility, because from 51 Hz down, you have REAL protection from "location" problems.

In fact, If it was my system, that would be my first choice...

[Active Speaker]

Craig, it's good to see you over here again; I haven't been able to post on "the spot" for a few weeks due to work. I agree, I have No localization problems using the high & low pass at 51 hz. Here's one to think about: now that I have the 1220, many movies sound better on my system in STEREO, than in DTS or DD!

[Ddavidson]

At the heart of the matter is the vast difference of dealing with multichannel bass re-direction compared to stereo (which all subwoofers can handle).

Without doubling up and reproducing some low bass frequencies in mutiple locations (causing possible cancelations) you have to either.

A: Get a receiver/pre-amp with seperate variable indervidual crossovers (ie HK, B&K, Meridian, Theta,)
B: Manually engage (for stereo listening) the inbuilt 500w Hsu amp's LP/HP while putting your receiver in stereo direct/pure mode (dis-engaging the x-over) (ie full range - no frills)

B may not be an ideal situation, but it is the better sounding option than doubling bass in mutiple locations. At least if you do not want the more expensive option of A where you are changing the multichannel bass management brains (receiver/pre-amp). Manufacturers have been very lazy and slow in coming to terms with the fact not all speakers are created equal and not everyone uses the same speakers at every point of their layout.

The "global" crossover systems employed in some models can also be better than nothing. But it really depends on the speakers used, as many people have much more capable LH/RH fronts than they use on the rears and/or sides. The problems of mutiple room locations for speakers (inc subs) needs a whole lot more thought and understanding to be put into doing this. You will find that people just hate the knowledge that the manufacturer says the speakers play to 35Hz, and yet someone else is saying cross over at 80-90Hz into a dedicated subwoofer (in the ideal location) as this will quite simply work best with most room acoustics and free up your amp and mains for improved treble/midrange clarity.

Its easy to see the hype surounding this subject as "number chasers" get all caught up in big figures rather than "listening" to the actual results. I know of very few speakers (except very expensive) that can handle the low bass of a modern digital soundtrack. Speakers quoting 35-40Hz in most cases are very lucky to 3-4dB down at 70-80Hz let alone what they print on the spec sheets. The key here is how big a number can you print on the sheet to get buyers interested without bringing on obvious law suits.


Ddavidson

[craigsub]

Craig, it's good to see you over here again; I haven't been able to post on "the spot" for a few weeks due to work. I agree, I have No localization problems using the high & low pass at 51 hz. Here's one to think about: now that I have the 1220, many movies sound better on my system in STEREO, than in DTS or DD!

Active, For movie sound, my favorite is the two channel with my "experimental" VTF-3 Mark II's (drivers forward) ...

[Active Speaker]

Craig,

Tell the truth, do you keep your sub perfectly flat for movies, or do you run it "hotter" for greater impact?

When are you getting a TN series?

[craigsub]

I got a pair of Onix Ref 3's 6 weeks ago. They were "B" stock, and I got a great deal. They are remarkable, and with the VTF-3's facing forward, crossed over at 30 HZ.... SWEET...

I listen the same way, movies or music, this system measures, in room, +/- 3.5 dB from 19 to 16,384 Hz, and the sound is wonderful. I posted a review under the Onix section (Boutique Manufacturer) in Home Theater SPot.

As for 1220's, I am holding out for the replacement...

[Ddavidson]

my "experimental" VTF-3 Mark II's (drivers forward) ...
Oh for Pete's sake give me a break.
Simple listening reveals the agenda, so give it a rest.

Ddavidson

[craigsub]

If you are ever in the Pennsylvania area, drop me a line... consider yourself invited for good scotch and music.

[Active Speaker]

Craig,

That would be great; same here. Maybe you'll get to "big D" someday on a flight for a convention or something, or on the way to some exotic destination.

"As for 1220's, I am holding out for the replacement..."

Do you think it's ever coming? I, too, wanted to wait, but the current 1220 is so good that the new one will have to be unbelievable to replace it.

In a couple of weeks, I should be back on the "spot" and here significantly more.

[craigsub]

When you live in Pa., OHIO looks exotic... :p

BUT, If business brings me there... drinks will flow !

Dr. Hsu said it won't be too long for the new line, and I am not exactly suffering with the 3's... and after moving a 220 pound Denali around... the cylinders look really appealing...