VTF-3 question

[sokukodo]

I am in the process of buying a new computer (everything should come together in June) ... this will be my set-up:
Apple PowerMac Dual processor 1.42 GHZ w/ Radeon 9700 Pro graphics card;
M-Audio Delta 66 sound card;
Apple Cinema Display (20" LCD wide screen);
Swans T200a Studio Monitors (2);
Either (1) a Swans Sub10se, OR (2) Hsu VTF-3.
I guess what I need to know is the difficulty in hooking up the Hsu to the sound card? what kind of hook-up is it?
The VTF-3 is certainly tempting!
Thank you.

[sokukodo]

I also notice that the AC power supply is 115V/230V ... all I've got here is 110V ... will this work?

[Sasha_G]

110V should work fine, and the subwoofer does not care if the computer is a mac or a windows machine, as long as the drivers work correctly.

M-Audio might actually have some drivers that do quite sophisticated bass management. I know their Delta 410 has bass management in their drivers. It doesn't really matter if the card has bass management or not for the most basic setup.

The Delta 66 breakout box has 4 1/4 inch phono outputs, stereo I think. The actual card has two RCA type outputs, I think. The picture from their site is here:

http://www.midiman.net/products/m-audio/images/delta66_lrg.jpg
http://www.midiman.net/products/m-audio/delta66.php

Assuming the drivers don't do the bass management, the first setup option is the cheapest, and works very well if you are using bookshelf monitors.

(1) The two RCA outputs on the card could go directly to the subwoofer. They will work fine. But, you might want to save those outputs. In that case, get an adapter to go from a 1/4 stereo phono output on the breakout box to the subwoofer. Here is one such adapter cable from Radio Shack.
http://www.radioshack.com/product.asp?catalog%5Fname=CTLG&category%5Fname=&product%5Fid=42%2D2547

With either the phono or RCA type outputs, the subwoofer will sum the left and right channels and just take the bass. The subwoofer's crossover will be engaged by setting it to "IN" and the crossover frequency needs to be set to take the bass at the point where your monitors fail to. You can use test tones on our included test CD to find the correct crossover point.

(2) If you are doing mutlichannel mixing and can afford it, you can buy a bass management product. Outlaw audio has one such product. These will take the bass from a number of sources and send it all to the subwoofer. It would be great if the drivers on the card did this like the Delta 410, but if not there is always the Outlaw.

[sokukodo]

Visiting M-Audio's website reveals that both the Delta 410 and Delta 66 use the identical drivers for Mac OS X, so that if the 410s have base management, the 66s probably do, too. So, the subwoofer would be connected to one of the "outs" on the break-out box, the studio monitors to another one? (bear with me: this is a steep learning curve for me!) ... that sounds easy enough ... :D

[Sasha_G]

Hmm, I know that the 410 Windows drivers had bass management, but I suspect that the Mac drivers do not have the "extra" features. The drivers will work, technically, but my feeling is that they will not have the special drivers that Clif at Digital Connection helped make (http://www.digitalconnection.com/Support/cn_maudio_beta1.asp)

I think we must ask M-Audio if their Delta 66 drivers have "bass management". It they did, then indeed you could use a mono subwoofer output on the card or breakout box, depending on how you configured the drivers in the control panel.

By the way, I also am wondering how their new Sonica Home Theater Product works. Looks like it works on Mac and PC, and works with laptops. It uses a break out box, which may reduce internal noise. At the same time, I wonder how they managed to transmit so many channels over the USB cable.

http://www.midiman.com/products/consumer/sonicaTheatre_page1.php

[sokukodo]

Good questions ... I wish that M-Audio had a forum. There's a support section, but that seems to address problems already encountered after installation, by which time it wd probably be too late ... the Sonica Home Theater is, I think, a USB version of the Revolution 7.1 PCI card; as to how channels are are run through USB, I don't know. I am currently running Harmon Kardon's SoundSticks and iSub (purchased through Apple), and it is USB. From the research I've done, the consensus seems to be that a PCI card is better than USB ... nevertheless, I'm back to square one as to what kind of Sound Card will work with the VTF-2 (or 3); the "bass management" issue is a new one for me. Is this a crossover issue?

[sokukodo]

I received this reply to my query to M-Audio concerning bass management:

Richard,

The Delta does not have a bass management feature, although there are many software applications and plug ins which will allow you to do this.

Tech Support
M-Audio

hmm ...

[sokukodo]

Sasha, I wonder if you might explain a little as to what the "bass management" feature actually does, and does your "bass optimiser" serve this same function?

[sokukodo]

Success! the M-Audio 7.1 PCI card has "bass management" (and it's less expensive than the Delta Series!):D

[Sasha_G]

Bass Management is usually though of in the mutlichannel sense, I believe. It is similar to a crossover, but with the capacity to handle many channels at once. In that sense it is more related to our High End Crossover than our Bass Optimizer, which has no crossover functionality. Our High End Crossover can send the bass to the subwoofer from two channels.

The bass management that I have experienced in the M-Audio Drivers was about setting crossover points from five channels, and having all the bass from all of them sent to the subwoofer channel.

[sokukodo]

I see ... so if I get the High End Crossover, will that negate the internal bass management feature of the Revolution 7.1? I see that there is a dedicated port for a sub on the card ...

[Sasha_G]

The High End Crossover wouldn't be needed if you were using bass management on the card. They basically do the same thing--the card does it in the digital domain, the high end crossover does it with capacitors and other non-digital electronics.

[sokukodo]

Thanks, Sasha, you've been a great help ... this is what Mac OS X has "in the box":
http://www.apple.com/macosx/technologies/audio.html
So everything is coming together, bit by bit (or is it byte by byte?
:rolleyes: ) ... hopefully by mid-June. The only thing remaining is the choice of sub, either VTF-2 or VTF-3; this room is 11x17, so it's possible that the VTF-3 may be overkill. I sent in the placement schematic a few days ago to y'all.

[sokukodo]

Decided on the VTF-2 ... read on another forum that possibly connecting the active studio monitors to the sub, then connecting the sub to the sound card would work, assuming the sub has an active high pass filter ... my question is, is this really necessary? What does this actually do (as opposed to connecting the monitors and sub separately to the card)?:confused:

[sokukodo]

Any decision yet on cabinet change? Will the price be affected? (VTF-2)

[Sasha_G]

sokukodo,

The VTF-2 doesn't have a high pass filter, so that is not the way to hook it up. The way we were talking about before with the sound cards bass management should work. That should do all the crossover work in the digital domain. If that doesn't work, you can use the VTF-2's low pass crossover and an extra line out.

We are learning and working on the cabinets right now, but there is no decision at this point yet.

[tdekany]

No such thing - Go with the VTF - 2 and you will be sorry. Just turn the sub down a bit. FYI, it sounds awesome. It is a must have item.
m2c

Originally posted by sokukodo
TThe only thing remaining is the choice of sub, either VTF-2 or VTF-3; this room is 11x17, so it's possible that the VTF-3 may be overkill.

[sokukodo]

Been reading a lot about "breaking in" a speaker. What exactly is this, and what does it entail? Does breaking a speaker in vary from speaker to speaker, i.e., monitor speakers vs subwoofers?

[Sasha_G]

sokukodo,

The VTF-2 has a foam surround which requires some break in to loosen up.

All other Hsu speakers don't require much, if any break in. Just play it for the first few days cautiously. Rubber surrounds and poly-cotton spiders are great. The VTF-2 has a poly-cotton spider, but no rubber surround, so may require an extra day or so.

[sokukodo]

Thanks, sasha ... interesting.

[tdekany]

I didn't mean to say that the VTF 2 is not a great product.
Why not get the best?


Originally posted by tdekany
No such thing - Go with the VTF - 2 and you will be sorry. Just turn the sub down a bit. FYI, it sounds awesome. It is a must have item.
m2c

[sokukodo]

LOL ... I was intending on buying the VTF-2 because the limited size of my room where my computer is, but upon reflection I realized that I may not always be in this room: somewhere down the line there will be bigger rooms, hence the VTF-3 may be the way to go. My main worry is the compatibilty of speakers/sound card/Macintosh OS X platform interface. From what I've been reading, it may not be the problem I think it is ... after all, sinking $7000 into a computer HT system is daunting.

[Sasha_G]

Originally posted by sokukodo
LOL ... I was intending on buying the VTF-2 because the limited size of my room where my computer is, but upon reflection I realized that I may not always be in this room: somewhere down the line there will be bigger rooms, hence the VTF-3 may be the way to go. My main worry is the compatibilty of speakers/sound card/Macintosh OS X platform interface. From what I've been reading, it may not be the problem I think it is ... after all, sinking $7000 into a computer HT system is daunting.

The VTF-3 also plays lower--down to 18 Hz instead of the 25 Hz in the VTF-2. If price is no object that is the way to go.

[sokukodo]

OMG! Just saw the rosewood VTF-3 ... absolutely gorgeous!

[Sasha_G]

Thanks. We chose that design after conducting some polls on internet forums with mockup images. The final product is exceeding our expectations in beauty and quality.

I walked into the manufacturing building last week and saw rows of VTF-3Rs being built. The beauty of them was quite overwhelming. Even upside-down :) . One is beautiful, but two or more are even nicer. One on each side of the couch would be a dream system. My verdict: these are gorgeous speakers, there is no doubt about it.

[sokukodo]

I'll be ordering one in a few weeks; for my studio monitors, I've decided on a set of self powered Tannoys (600A) ... they seem to be highly regarded.

[sokukodo]

I think I've found the perfect match: VTF-3r + Mackie HR824!

[sokukodo]

All the ordering begins next week; this will be the set-up:
Apple Dual Processor 1.42 Ghz PowerMac w/ 20" LCD Cinema Display;
M-audio Revolution 7.1 sound card;
Co2 coaxial/optical converter;
Klipsch DD-5.1 decoder/pre-amp;
Mackie HR824 studio monitors (self-powered 250W per speaker: 150W to the woofer, 100 to the tweeter);
Hsu VTF-3.
connections: coaxial digital "out" from the sound card to the Co2 converter; optical from the converter to the Klipsch decoder/preamp; speakers/sub to the preamp.
My question: the Klipsch will route all bass under 120 Hz to the sub; the sub has the 30-60-90 crossover on the back: should this be disabled? CAN it be disabled? Is this what is meant by "defeatable"?

[Sasha_G]

I congradulate you on the Mackies! Those are some of the nicest speakers I have ever heard. They get very loud, and the highs are very detailed and pronounced. The imaging was very good.

Since you are using a subwoofer, I might suggest you try the smaller mackie HR-624s, since you don't need the 824's 40 Hz bass response.

Regarding your question, the answer is yes, the subwoofer's internal crossover can be disabled. Simply switch the crossover to "OUT", which means disengaged.

Ideally, your other crossover should be set to 80 Hz or below since bass is directional above that. IF you set it to 120, the subwoofer may sound like it has more punch but it will be directional.

[sokukodo]

Thanks, Sasha ... is there a reason why one would go "optical" vs digital? I'm thinking of forgoing the converter and Klipsch and just hooking straight to the sound card itself.

[sokukodo]

Sasha, could you explain the reason for a 20 lb magnet? How does this increase the performance of the sub?