250 watt plate amp...vs 500 watt

[MFH]

1st off I must say: I HATE...I mean REALLY hate the look and arrangement of the 250 watt plate amp.
I found the 250 watt amp was adequate, but tip toes when mated to efficient speakers. I crossed it over at 30-35hz, and had to max the volume out.
I was exceptionally careful [I do not BLAST music per se] but it died.
I shipped the old one to HSU, and they were shipping me a warranty replacement, so I upgraded to [hallelujia] the 500 watt unit.
The layout is far better [like a normal stereo amp] and I will be doing listening tests after it arrives [hopefully this afternoon]
>fingers crossed<

[Ddavidson]

The 500w amp is a whole different mousetrap than the 250w for driving the TN series. But depending on room gain and the size of your room, the 250w still can play loud enough for most people.

Its a money issue for many people as the 500w is close to double the price. If you have duel TN series then the 500w amp is a no brainer.

The 500w how ever you look at it certainly has the dynamics and headroom to really grab control of the driver. I have also heard (last year) the duel TN1220s with a Bass Optimizer, all of which was run by a Crown K2 Amp.

One thing for certain, besides the wife not at all liking the look of the big tall TN tubes, the bass was fast, tight and very powerful.

I must say that it was not too shabby at all for sound quality using the Crown amp. The real downside for me was that the wife just would not have what she called "enormous covered toilet holders" in the house. No matter how much I pleaded or what I said. She absolutely refused to let me buy them, because she hated what she called the the cheap tube look.

(I ended up with a VTF-3 and a VTF-2 to keep her happy)

K Series Amp
http://www.crownaudio.com/amp_htm/kspecs.htm

Hsu Bass Optimizer
http://store1.yimg.com/I/hsusubs_1737_72817
http://www.hsustore.com/bassoptimizer.html

Ddavidson

[Sasha_G]

MFH,

That amp must have had some real problems, because the 250 Watt amp can power the TN sub quite well in fairily large rooms. Even though the TN/250W setup hits around 115 dB in most rooms, the TN system is primarily and sound quality system without a max output mode. I agree, the layout is better on the 500 watter.

The appearance of the 250 watter is a result of Dr. Hsu's rather unusual priorities of good sound quality over visual design. That amp may look like all the other plate amps on the market at first glance, but inside it was built with some really nice customized electronics that do what the other stock plate amps don't. The crossover section is one of the most important modifications. I'm glad you noticed that.

[Lwang]

Dr Hsu has to realize that he is not selling to the hobbyist anymore. A nice std rack width component is more important to many people than customized electronics, especially when they want to stack everything up nicely.

It might even make more sense to drop the internals of the 250w amp inside a cheap chasis and relocate the connectors & adjustments to the front/back.

[MFH]

I had twofold problems it seems.

1) My bananna plugs were somehow broken on the positive terminal. I was getting no signal from the amp to the sub just now. I direct wired everything and it's ok.

2) The previous output I used, was from my integrated amp. It is a tube amp, and the subwoofer output" is very low level. It wasn't getting much gain for the 250 watt plate amp to use.

I got the 500 watt amp, and a different cd player. this cd player has two sets of outputs. I mearly run the 500 watt amp from it.

I have plenty of volume now, even at the 10 or 11 o clock position on the amp dial.

I suppose I didn't really need to 500 watt amp, but I do not regret getting it because of it's flexibility, and stereo-friendly format.

I do agree that a tube sub does not carry WAF or the visual appeal of the VTF-3 sub.

For right now, the sub is filling it the bottom quite well. It's hard to interpolate the difference, because this is a different source and setup.

At least I am not dealing with a sub so large it will only fit in the bed of a pickup truck....

[Lwang]

The old 250w amp had pretty much all the flexibility of the 500w amp, along with it being a std width unit. Although it seem to use a adjustable feedback for gain instead of the voltage devider that is on the 500w amp.

I did not have much of an WAF issue with the 1220, given that having cats around, we are use to the sight of scratching posts laying around the house. But it sits out of sight behind equipment shelves due to its thiness.

[Ddavidson]

Dr Hsu has to realize that he is not selling to the hobbyist anymore. A nice std rack width component is more important to many people than customized electronics, especially when they want to stack everything up nicely.


Without taking anything away from Dr Hsu's long time record of "sound quality first", I would agree with you 100%.

The look, fit, finish and packaging (within the cost bracket chosen) seems to be the primary guide on which most people choose what to finally own. For the majority it is "the look" that counts for "far more" than the sound quality. How else can you explain some of the absolute shocking sounding audio equipment that people buy.

I know it sounds silly to many here. But when you have close friends telling you crazy stuff like "I really like the Vtf-3 much better than the Velodyne that I purchased" but man I just hate the finish of the Vtf-3 so I got the Velodyne.. Me; I would choose what ever sounds the best, but then again I also refuse to pay more for finish as thats not as important to me. I am one of those audiophiles that loves Hsu for its great sound.

My greatest fear has always been that Hsu might go into the rip off retail sales channels and thus become just average as retailers milk off the profits like they have always done to great products. I want to see all the profits go into design and building better products not into retailers hands.

I really hope Hsu keeps its good prices and sound quality. Too many brand go south in the sound department trying to get too big. To me the best way to achieve that this in todays world is to sell direct to the customer. Avoid retailers who will only mark it up 35-40% and yet add absolutely no value to the product.

Cutting out the redundant middle man in this day and age is fast becoming standard fair. Please Hsu keep the pencil sharp and the vulture retailers well away. The products are already big winners without them.


Ddavidson

[Sasha_G]

Originally posted by Ddavidson

My greatest fear has always been that Hsu might go into the rip off retail sales channels and thus become just average as retailers milk off the profits like they have always done to great products. I want to see all the profits go into design and building better products not into retailers hands.

I really hope Hsu keeps its good prices and sound quality. Too many brand go south in the sound department trying to get too big. To me the best way to achieve that this in todays world is to sell direct to the customer. Avoid retailers who will only mark it up 35-40% and yet add absolutely no value to the product.

Cutting out the redundant middle man in this day and age is fast becoming standard fair. Please Hsu keep the pencil sharp and the vulture retailers well away. The products are already big winners without them.
Ddavidson

Truth be told, we do sell though some retailers right now, but don't offer the "spiffs" and markups they are used to. The truth is our markups are too low for most retailers right now, well below the industry standard. Too much of our price goes to the product itself.

I hear that you are passionate about the removing the middle man, and it is *very possible* Hsu Research will remain focused on the direct sales approach for *many* of the products. However, there are two realities facing an Hsu Research that wont simply dissapear, even if we ignore them:

1) New customers want to listen to the product before buying, especially when moving towards the higher end of audio. Having existing customers demonstrate to strangers and aquantances one by one would not work fast enough. It is an idea for the future, and if existing customers want to volunteer we can add their name, zip code, and phone number to our list of places to audition. We even will offer incentives to them. Please contact me if you are interested in this program.

2) Producing in volume keeps the cost low. Distributing through dealers allows us to sell more, which gives us buying power and more options in choosing efficient manufacturing methods. So, we can offer even more quality for the buck by continuing with dealers.

I know it may be falling on jaded ears, but three biggest commitments of Hsu Research will remain
1. sound quality
2. low price
3. Attractive cabinets and appearance comes in narrowly at third. We want to have cabinets at least as nice as other companies, and with the rosewood VTF-3 we are trying to go beyond others.

This will remain, even if we continue going through dealers. Other companies seem to loose sight of the quality of products when they get too big. They get lazy, and no longer really *want* to make great products. However, when every Hsu product is designed by Dr. Hsu and every product we sell must meet the standards listed above, and not a commitee's, then good products will continue to roll. Being "average" is to be avoided at all costs.

[MFH]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Lwang
[B]The old 250w amp had pretty much all the flexibility of the 500w amp, along with it being a std width unit. Although it seem to use a adjustable feedback for gain instead of the voltage devider that is on the 500w amp.

-- If it has "all the fexibility" then it would have 500 watts [2 x the power for driving non hsu subs if necessary

- Ability to drive 2 subs [output for 2]

- Accept external module for precision crossover.

-The 250w plate amp is an awkward design that does not belong in a stereo. It looks like nothing else, and aside from it's nonstandard appearance, the ergonomics plain suck.

I fail to see how the 250w amp is nearly as flexible by any real definition of "flexible"

[Lwang]

really hope Hsu keeps its good prices and sound quality. Too many brand go south in the sound department trying to get too big. To me the best way to achieve that this in todays world is to sell direct to the customer. Avoid retailers who will only mark it up 35-40% and yet add absolutely no value to the product.

Even though many internet retailers offers good value for the money, I wouldn't exclude products that are sold exclusively through retailers. Many of my component could not be substituted in the internet/mail-order world since it features such unique feature that they are probably not afraid of them.

Even if Hsu started out as a company that distributes through dealters, it would probably been a successful company, although it would probably would have only been a good value sub instead of being a steal. But then, the product might have been more finished since they would have had to improve that aspect to catch the eyes of the browsing customer.

Originally posted by MFH
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Lwang
[B]The old 250w amp had pretty much all the flexibility of the 500w amp, along with it being a std width unit. Although it seem to use a adjustable feedback for gain instead of the voltage devider that is on the 500w amp.

-- If it has "all the fexibility" then it would have 500 watts [2 x the power for driving non hsu subs if necessary

- Ability to drive 2 subs [output for 2]

- Accept external module for precision crossover.

-The 250w plate amp is an awkward design that does not belong in a stereo. It looks like nothing else, and aside from it's nonstandard appearance, the ergonomics plain suck.

I fail to see how the 250w amp is nearly as flexible by any real definition of "flexible"

I think you missed the fact that I said the old 250w amp. That unit has the flexible crossover of the 500w amp. I did not say that it has the power or the current capability of the 500w amp, that is why it is 250w and could only drive one sub.

A pix of the 250w amp along with the 500w amp could be seen here.

[Ddavidson]

Truth be told, we do sell though some retailers right now, but don't offer the "spiffs" and markups they are used to.

It is a bit of a scam on consumers how the whole retail deal works. It is very corrupt because dealers push for dollar reasons not any other reason. Except for one perhaps two times a year now, I just do not buy or visit a dealer because they are 25-50% average higher than the net and everything can be auditioned in your own home with no pressure or bias. If I do not like it I return it and get a full refund so some small freight is a slight cost.

The truth is our markups are too low for most retailers right now, well below the industry standard. Too much of our price goes to the product itself.

Putting all of the profit into the product is exactly how it should be. The name of the game is the "customer and the product". We all know that both Sound Quality and Value are what has earned Hsu their long standing excellent reputation.

For instance at $499 its very obvious the little VTF-2 is a very hard to beat combo, but if retailers are added into the profits, something really has to give and that would have to be the low $499 price. Sure mass manufactureing can save costs but greedy retailers would want much more than just low margins. I know that if you do not give the retailers the "massive margins", they will only use Hsu's reputation and sell off of Hsu, and put customers onto a high profit competitor. It is one sad state of affairs on exactly how greed driven retailers are. They do not care one bit about the sound or the product, they only really care about the profit margins. That is why it would be very sad to see Hsu abandon the cost efficient audiophile/hobbyist that helped create the company. The last thing we need is 4ft - $400 Hsu gold plated interconnects. I hope Hsu keeps it all real.

I hear that you are passionate about the removing the middle man, and it is *very possible* Hsu Research will remain focused on the direct sales approach for *many* of the products.

I really hope so for the sake of customers value for money. Being in the retail sales industry (not either audio or video) we are taught to always sell off of products with good reputations so we can gain bigger bonus checks. Because I know how sales work in retail I am dead against it for Hsu because as Lwang said the steal price heads south and it becomes another averaged priced subwoofer (although good sounding)

I know it may be falling on jaded ears, but three biggest commitments of Hsu Research will remain
1. sound quality
2. low price

It would be suicide for Hsu to loose either of these commitments as its the main ingredient to its reputation.
It is IMO such a catch22 if you try to go retail now, because in years to come (as more consumers learn to go direct) you have gone and taken a backwards step. It is why with years of pain learned in retail I think staying and developing a more effective niche is better than trying to take on the world of greedy retailers. Having the world sounds like a good idea in the beginning, but it can turn around and bite you real quick and with great pain. Developing better advertisements, review stratergies and marketing to build up as a direct biz, is better than going retail. It is a niche market but it is an audio lovers product. If we wanted a boombox we could buy a Sony.

By adding retailers your only real value is a demo facility for which to send potential customers, but being real about things the 30 Day return gives the customer a much better chance than a dealers demo, because you can hear it in your very own rooms accoustics and equipment.

I hope you add different finishes and more products, but I also hope you keep them at ultra cheap pricing compared to what they would cost if offered at retail for retailers margins. For us poor customers who do not want to pay the earth for good sound, I really hope you keep it as a consumer friendly direct market product.

Ddavidson

[tdekany]

Maybe HSU should invest more $$$ into ""marketing"" the product
through advertisement in mainstream publications instead of going into retail stores, although with enough buying power maybe it's possible to keep the price about the same. Add the shipping we have to pay anyway to MSRP.

[Ddavidson]

Maybe HSU should invest more $$$ into ""marketing"" the product
through advertisement in mainstream publications instead of going into retail stores

That is where they should invest more $$$ because they could pick up a lot more customers. Now with the new Rosewood Vtf-3 any new advert will attract those looking for gloss. The best part is that unlike subs sold at retail it is not priced sky high, and better yet it actually sounds as good as subs costing twice the price sold by retailers.

People buy Hsu because it is an absolute no brainer. If they could get a subwoofer for the same price at retail that sounded as good, then "HSU WOULD BE OUT OF BIZ IN NO TIME".

Of course they can not buy one at a retailer that is as good for the price. They have to buy another mail order sub brand before they can get close to a HSU. That is what I mean, its obvious why you have a strong following. I believe that the "Aura" around the brand is strong but peope just will not feel the same if you take away the price advantage. I would hate to see Hsu shoot itself in its own foot. You then just become a good sounding subwoofer company not a good sounding subwoofer company at bargain prices. You can still appeal to the higher end market with better finishes, but why create work when you reputation precedes you and you have a pricing advantage. You become a slave to the retailers and loose touch with the real people "Your Customers".

Take away the cost advantage and its not such a no brainer. I want to keep buying Hsu because its pretty hard not to when they are priced like they are now. But to me going into retail will mean to compete they have to become like the retailer wants and that is put loads of money in their hands and out of us the customers hands.

I may be wrong but I think price effective mail order with good advertisments as DELL do will work better than feeding large profits into dealers that do zip to earn it. Besides sell a box that they know nothing about except profit margin. Retail is for the gullible. Reputation is everything.



Ddavidson