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  #1  
Old December 5th, 2020, 1:51 PM
Calypte Calypte is offline
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Which recording is this?

I was looking through user reviews of the CCB-8. I found the following comment: "That piece that you played of a choral and pipe organ piece in a large room (maybe a cathedral) was astonishingly realistic." What recording was this? (RMAF 2016)
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  #2  
Old December 17th, 2020, 5:29 PM
Kevin_Hsu Kevin_Hsu is offline
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We have a few of those tracks but it may have been Turtle Creek Chorale/John Rutter - Pie Jesu
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  #3  
Old December 18th, 2020, 1:36 AM
Calypte Calypte is offline
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Thank you. Hsu Research once published a list of recordings with demo-worthy bass. I have a copy of the list, and I have some of the recordings. But the list is at least 20 years old. It could be profitably revised to reflect more recent recordings.
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Old December 18th, 2020, 3:23 PM
Kevin_Hsu Kevin_Hsu is offline
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Yea we change it up as we go really. That piece didn't have a lot of bass, but it did have a pipe organ that digs decently low.
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  #5  
Old December 24th, 2020, 4:39 PM
Calypte Calypte is offline
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The Saturn movement of Holst's The Planets, played by the Toronto Sym and conducted by Andrew Davis, has some very deep bass. It's deeper than the bass in the recording by Dutoit mentioned in your old recommended bass albums list.
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  #6  
Old December 29th, 2020, 1:22 PM
Calypte Calypte is offline
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Is it true -- in your opinion, Kevin -- that Hsu Research has rather backed off from trying to produce ultra-low bass? By "ultra-low," I mean substantial output below 16 Hz. I have one VTF-3 Mk 4, which I think had a -3 db spec of 16 Hz with one port open. The current VTF-3 Mk5 HP only promises 17 Hz. Even the flagship VTF-15 Mk2 only promises 16 Hz. There appears to have been an adjustment in engineering goals. I have been looking at other brands, some of whose models promise substantial output as low as 12 or 13 Hz.

Also -- has Hsu Research done any research or experimentation with Dolby Atmos? I don't have an Atmos setup, although I have the electronics for it. I've found that it's just about impossible to hear an Atmos demo, particularly with in/on ceiling height speakers. I'm puzzled that the audio/HT retailing industry hasn't put some effort in trying to market this. People won't buy it if they can't hear it.

Last edited by Calypte : December 29th, 2020 at 1:54 PM.
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  #7  
Old December 31st, 2020, 11:22 AM
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There are several threads dealing with Atmos. If you search on "atmos" in the forums you'll find them - though I'm not sure if there's any new developments from Hsu in that regard.

And as to your other inquiry, a similar question was asked earlier this year and got a reply. Not sure if it's EXACTLY what you're looking for though...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin_Hsu View Post
Honestly, our 15" subs can get you pretty close to that. Technically you can EQ any sub to go as low as you want, but whether you actually get significant clean headroom at those frequencies is another thing. Really when it comes to subwoofers, it's all a balancing act in the driver design (excursion, mass, efficiency), amp power, enclosure, port design. If we were to design one, my guess is that we would have to put it in a larger enclosure and go with a larger driver design, as you stated. That's not off the table for sure and we're always coming up with new ideas.
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  #8  
Old December 31st, 2020, 8:12 PM
Calypte Calypte is offline
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Thank you. It turns out that I asked this question in Jan 2020. But I never saw Kevin's reply.

I visited Hsu Research's listening room in Anaheim twice in 2014. It may have been around the time Dolby Atmos was introduced to the consumer market. At that time there was no Atmos capability in their listening room. Furthermore, usually Atmos employs specialized height speakers, and there's nothing suitable offered by Hsu Research. The only Atmos demo I've ever personally experienced was at a hi-end audio show in L.A. in 2017. I think the demo was from Stark Labs. They used identical speakers all around, including overhead. Unfortunately, there wasn't much overhead activity in the sample movie clips they used.

Last edited by Calypte : December 31st, 2020 at 8:27 PM.
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  #9  
Old December 31st, 2020, 9:02 PM
ATL ATL is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Calypte View Post
I have one VTF-3 Mk 4, which I think had a -3 db spec of 16 Hz with one port open. The current VTF-3 Mk5 HP only promises 17 Hz. Even the flagship VTF-15 Mk2 only promises 16 Hz. I have been looking at other brands, some of whose models promise substantial output as low as 12 or 13 Hz
I would only say this: not all "specs" are created equal. Manufacturers have a vested interest in selling product. So the better the specs, the more they sell.

My GoldenEar speakers claim extension to 14 Hz. And that's mains - not subs. They get me to about 90-percent bass euphoria. But if they truly went to 14 Hz in my listening room, I know I'd be about 100-percent there.

My mains have 3) woofers and 4) sub-bass radiators - PER SIDE (left & right). All of the bass cones are oval in shape. But I've calculated the bass radiating area and translated it to the more-common round drivers.

It translates to either: 2) 16" woofers PER SIDE, or: 2) 10" woofers and 1) 18" sub PER SIDE. In other words: 4) 16" woofers or 4) 10" woofers and 2) 18" subs for the whole system.

That, plus two (2) 1600-watt sub amps (one per channel), seems it'd be "enough". But I still find myself in want of more energy in what I would call the bottom musical octave of 16-32 Hz. Unfortunately, if I try to boost the bass level control, I boost much more than that bottom octave - so I pretty much just leave it flat.

My only point is that every listening room is different, and until you put a specific speaker in a specific listening room, there's almost no way to predict what will be the outcome. You can predict it, but you won't know. And the fact that one mfr claims 1-2 (or even 2-4) more Hz extension than another means very little.
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  #10  
Old January 2nd, 2021, 11:28 AM
Calypte Calypte is offline
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My mistake. The Dolby Atmos demo I experienced in L.A. in 2017 was produced by Starke Sound. They're based in Gardena, CA.
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  #11  
Old January 5th, 2021, 2:12 PM
Calypte Calypte is offline
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I've had a fun couple of days with the old deep-bass list published by Hsu Research many years ago. The list is old enough that the street address for Hsu Research at the top of the page is a residential address. I guess Dr. Hsu was operating out of his garage when he started.

Probably the best demo of sub-20 Hz bass is still the demo disc issued by Hsu Research with its subwoofers. At least they were supplying it in 2014. This CD-ROM is not on the old list. The CD-ROM has a clip from the last part of the Adagio of Saint-Saens Symphony No. 3, played by the Boston Civic Orchestra, conducted by Max Hobart. This track sets our curio cabinet rattling. Two other recordings of the Saint-Saens Sym 3 in my collection that come close to this Boston recording are an SACD on the Ondine label with the Philadelphia Orchestra, conducted by Christoph Eschenbach, and the Kansas City Symphony, conducted by Michael Stern. This last one is a recent recording on Reference Recordings. Many recordings of this symphony contain very little low bass.

The latter part of the Saturn movement from Holst's The Planets also has an organ part with some good low bass. I have no way to determine the actual Hz, but it sounds to me like it's about as low as the Saint-Saens. The best in my collection is the recording by the Toronto Symphony Orchestra, conducted by Sir Andrew Davis. Second best is Charles Dutoit conducting the Orchestre symphonique de Montreal.

Looking ahead, I'd be interested in a subwoofer whose -3 db point is significantly below 16 Hz. One of the other manufacturers (not SVS) has caught my eye.

Last edited by Calypte : January 5th, 2021 at 6:57 PM.
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  #12  
Old January 7th, 2021, 11:18 AM
ATL ATL is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Calypte View Post
The CD-ROM has a clip from the last part of the Adagio of Saint-Saens Symphony No. 3, played by the Boston Civic Orchestra, conducted by Max Hobart. This track sets our curio cabinet rattling.

The latter part of the Saturn movement from Holst's The Planets also has an organ part with some good low bass. I have no way to determine the actual Hz, but it sounds to me like it's about as low as the Saint-Saens.
The 2nd movement of the Saint-Saens "Organ" Symphony is actually in the key of Db (D-flat), so the lowest organ notes you're hearing there is a low-Db in the 32-foot pedal organ pipes, which is around 17.3 Hz. (I verified this by looking at sheet music online as well as verifying with a keyboard in listening room comparing 3-4 recordings of it.)

The last movement of the Saint-Saens is in the key of C-major. It opens with C-major chord on full organ, which would include 32' low pedal C, which is around 16.4 Hz. The finale ends with the orchestra underpinned by a descending C-major scale in the 32' organ pedals.
So the scale starts with middle-C (16' pipe) in the pedals and descends to the low-C (32' pipe), and the approx Hz for each note in the scale would be:

C: 32.7
B: 30.9
A: 27.5
G: 24.5
F: 21.9
E: 20.6
D: 18.4
C: 16.4

With full orchestra blaring above in the finale, it's hard to hear the bass line, but it can definitely be felt (assuming good recording and good organ). It's also interesting to mute your mains and hear the line with just the subs. It's a good test for bass extension, starting around 32 Hz and going down to around 16 Hz, especially if you don't have test-tones.

Regarding the "Saturn" mvt of Holst's "The Planets" (Mvt 5), the organ pedals enter near the end with a low-E, which is around 20.6 Hz. Then in the last few measures ends on a low-C, which is around 16.4 Hz. (Again, verified by online sheet music and a keyboard in the listening room.)
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  #13  
Old January 7th, 2021, 12:56 PM
Calypte Calypte is offline
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Thank you for providing me with some education about this. I have the Dover score of the Saint-Saens. I'm not a musician, and I have to count the lines and spaces in the stave to identify the note. I don't have a score for The Planets.
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  #14  
Old January 7th, 2021, 1:00 PM
Calypte Calypte is offline
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Thank you for providing me with some education about this. I have the Dover score of the Saint-Saens. I'm not a musician, and I have to count the lines and spaces in the stave to identify the notes. I don't have a score for The Planets.
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  #15  
Old January 7th, 2021, 3:08 PM
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A couple years ago after attending a concert in a large church, I snuck behind the organ case to see the 32-foot wooden pipes mounted behind the organ case (out of view). They oftentimes place the largest bass pipes OUTSIDE the organ case, since they take up so much space.
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  #16  
Old January 8th, 2021, 10:57 AM
Calypte Calypte is offline
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Since our earlier messages, I inherited some CDs from a now-deceased family member. I was allowed to cherry-pick from his collection. He was a big fan of Telarc. There are bunch of them here, although not the two or three with Ozawa and the BSO. Lots of Erich Kunzel and Michael Murray.

Among them is Telarc's Saint-Saens Sym 3 with Ormandy. This may be Ormandy's last recording (1980). The deep organ pedals are there -- this is Telarc after all! -- but levels are low. I've never heard this piece in concert, so I don't know how true this is to something you'd actually hear.

Thanks for the pics of the organ. I'd be interested to see how the air is admitted to the pipes.
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Old January 9th, 2021, 11:12 AM
ATL ATL is offline
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You asked about winding to the pipes, so here are some more pics.

I've been a fan of TELARC since before they were making CDs, hehe. [Showing my age.] They may have been the 1st classical label to record digitally in the '70s - even though the CD had not yet been invented, so they were digitally-recorded vinyl albums of course. Still remember their ground-breaking recording of "1812 Overture" with digitally-recorded cannon-shots dubbed into orchestral recording. (And the record grooves for the cannon-shots had to be spaced about 1/8" apart due to the sawtooth-looking grooves at each cannon blast, and the infrasonics from the after-rumblings of the cannons easily ran below 15 Hz.) You had to crank up the tonearm force on your turntable to keep the cannon-shots from knocking the needle out of the groove. Good times.

I've got hundreds of CDs, and over 70 of them are TELARC.
I also took a liking to Dorian Recordings (probably 1980s & '90s), but I believe they're out-of-business. Both companies produced very natural-sounding recordings using minimal micing techniques without a lot of frequency and/or dynamics tweaking by the engineer.

Unfortunately, I don't believe I've ever personally heard the Saint-Saens performed live in concert with orchestra and pipe organ - only with electronic organ. Some very good, but some pretty disappointing. With a proper installation (and many, many subwoofers), an electronic organ can get you within about 80-90 percent of a pipe organ. [Actually, a lot of pipe organs add digital 32' ranks (reaching down to 16 Hz) due to money and/or space limitations. And, again, with the proper subwoofers & amps, you'd be hard-pressed to know the difference between pipe and electronic in the 16-32 Hz octave.] Unfortunately, not all symphony halls have a pipe organ installed to do pieces like the Saint-Saens justice, and symphonic concerts in large churches (where large pipe organs normally live) are few and far between.
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Last edited by ATL : January 9th, 2021 at 3:31 PM. Reason: added "live in concert"
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  #18  
Old January 9th, 2021, 4:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Calypte View Post
Among them is Telarc's Saint-Saens Sym 3 with Ormandy. This may be Ormandy's last recording (1980). The deep organ pedals are there -- this is Telarc after all! -- but levels are low. I've never heard this piece in concert, so I don't know how true this is to something you'd actually hear.
I will tell you there are a couple better, more-recent recordings of the Saint-Saens.

Dallas Symphony Orchestra / Eduardo Mata - Dorian Recordings (1994)
San Francisco Symphony / Edo de Waart - Philips (1984)

Organist on both recordings is Jean Guillou

Both are recorded in concert halls that have large pipe organs.
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  #19  
Old January 10th, 2021, 2:18 PM
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Thanks for the pix.

I have De Waart's SFSO recording, which happens to be on the old (ca. 1990) Hsu Research deep-bass list. Sorry, I don't hear anything special. I know (according to the old list) that you have to turn the volume level WAY, WAY up. I haven't tried that. But the deep pedals are unnoticeable at what many people would consider to be "too loud" levels. I don't have Mata's recording. Eschenbach/Philly and Stern/Kansas City SO handle this quite well. I'm considering all of these recordings from a purely audiophile standpoint.

Edited to add: My first Telarc recording was the LP issue of Stravinsky's Firebird and Borodin's Polovtsian Dances with Robert Shaw. CDs weren't yet available in the U.S. when I bought it. When CDs were first offered to consumers in the U.S. I heard a couple of demos, and I was a bit disappointed. Sure, they were blessedly free of inner-groove distortion and wobbling pitch from off-center pressings, but the sound seemed to me a bit edgy. During the summer of 1984 I heard the Maazel recording of Rite of Spring on Telarc. This was my, "Oh, I gotta have that!" moment. I bought my first CD player on Dec 31, 2004. My first CDs, aside from a freebie with the player (Fisher), were that Rite of Spring on Telarc and Mahler 9 with Karajan. Both of these still play perfectly, and they still have fine sound. In fact, the original redbook CD of the Stravinsky is, to my ears, superior to the SACD issue of the same recording. I've been collecting classical recordings since 1959.

Edited further to add: I met the woman who would become my wife in 1964. She had the LP set of "The Union" with Frederick Fennell. The record has a cannon shot to start off the final march of the "Grand Army of the Republic." She told me the stylus on her record player would jump from the groove at the cannon shot. She never got to hear the cannon shot. It played OK on my own equipment. We still have that LP set. The cannon shot is nothing compared to the 1812 on Telarc.

Edited still further: There was a gentleman I once knew only from his regular attendance at our annual Brucknerthons in San Diego. I knew he had some professional background in audio and music from when he previously lived in NYC. But it wasn't until after he died that I learned that he was an organ tuner. He was the official tuner for the organ at the Crystal Cathedral in Orange Co. Oh, how I wished I could have talked to him about organs when I had the chance. He must have had some fantastic stories.

Last edited by Calypte : January 10th, 2021 at 2:51 PM.
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  #20  
Old January 10th, 2021, 8:22 PM
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Wow. Where to begin?
I have 5 recordings of the Saint-Saens. I decided to dig out my other TELARC version, which is RPO/Badea w/Murray as soloist, for a listen. About 10-11 years newer than the Ormandy. The orch was recorded in London, and the organ in Florida. Normally I would shy away from such things. But I re-listened to it tonight, and have to say I might put it 1st or 2nd in my list of the S-S. It comes in 1st-Place as far as the descending scale from 16' C (32 Hz) to 32' low-C (16 Hz) at the end of the finale. I listened to it with mains muted and unmuted, and it is clear as a bell. Louder and clearer than any of my 5 versions. The recording itself is far and beyond better than the Ormandy 10 years prior as far as sonics and performance. I'm sure recording techniques & equipment improved between 1980 and 1990. It is also the most deliberate (slow) of my 5 versions. A full 2 minutes slower than the Ormandy. Out of my 5 versions, Ormandy takes the first half the fastest, while the RPO/Badea takes it slowest. And it works better. The 5th version I have, not already mentioned in this thread, is LPO recorded in Royal Festival Hall, London (LPO Label - 2014). Unfortunately, it is recorded live in concert and is a little disappointing in the bass department. The second-half of the symphony is also the fastest out of my 5, making it feel very rushed.
I know what you mean about the SFSO version, and believe the DSO on Dorian is a little better. (The Dorian also includes the Jongen Concertante, making it the better all-around option IMO. But it may be better sonically as well.)
Speaking of the Dorian, there's another must-have demo-CD recorded in the Dallas symphony hall if you don't have it. "Pomp & Pipes" with Dallas Wind Symphony conducted by Fennell. It's on Reference Recordings (1994). It is band and organ, and I cannot even listen to it at normal levels for the bass energy from bass drum and organ pedals. I'm pretty sure the facade pipes in that organ are 32-feet. See below.
And, speaking of Crystal Cathedral, I had the 2 direct-to-disc recordings Virgil Fox made there in the late-70's/early-80's. I don't think I still have them, but of course have the CDs now.
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  #21  
Old January 11th, 2021, 10:38 AM
Calypte Calypte is offline
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I made an error. The LP record, "The Union," wasn't performed by Frederick Fennell. It was conducted by Richard Bales, conducting the National Gallery Orchestra. They made a companion set, "The Confederacy," with the same performers. We have both. My memory confused the Bales sets with a pair of Civil War albums by Fennell, issued on Mercury -- which we also have.

I have 13 recordings of the Saint-Saens Sym 3, going back to monos by Munch and Toscanini. The cover of Mata's looks familiar, and I'd swear I have the Jongen piece somewhere. But I can't find it.

Edited to add: The Ormandy/Murray set of the Saint-Saens was recorded at a church in Philadelphia. The anonymous notes specifically say that they explicitly rejected the idea of dubbing in an organ from elsewhere.

Last edited by Calypte : January 12th, 2021 at 10:19 AM.
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