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  #1  
Old February 27th, 2014, 11:21 AM
mfer mfer is offline
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Help on 2.1 or 3.1 system (most likely Hsu all around)

I'll start out by stating, I'd rate myself a super novice on this stuff.

I have a living room that opens pretty much to rest of the house on one side. Blue are windows, Grey is fireplace, Black is TV, Red is sofas, Green are Hsu speakers. Orange is just measurements.


Ceiling is 9'

Here some pics of the place.


This is a pic if you are standing next to tv and looking into open area.


This is a pic from kitchen looking to TV room. TV would be on the back left.


Here is a picture looking straight on at TV. I will be wall mounting the TV to keep kids away a little better and I just like it on the wall.


So, I'm thinking 2.1 or 3.1.

I will be wall mounting the stereo speakers with the recommended AM-40 Side Clamping Speaker Wall Mount Bracket. If I get the center speaker, it'll go on the cabinet.

I do NOT want super bass system, but I'm going with the theory of buying a little more than needed and turn the sub down. (I have two younger kids, so I won't be able to crank it for some time).

Also, I'm not a super loud listener. I just like nicer looking and nice sounding things. Not loud (I know, not typical). I don't know what Amp to get yet. I would like something with 4k passthrough (for the future) and wireless so I can stream music.

This setup will be 95% TV/Movies, 5% music.

So,
I don't have a budget, but want to be practical. I'm not a super high end enthusiast, just the kind of guy that likes to buy it once and buy it right.
Any input on A/V Receiver (5.1 is the most I'll ever do)? Thinking around $250 - $700
Basically are your thoughts on a Hsu vtf3 mk4 for this? Is the sub enough/too much?
Anything else from the experts?
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  #2  
Old February 27th, 2014, 9:24 PM
SME SME is offline
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Because you are primarily watching TV and movies, definitely go at least 3.1. The center channel will make the experience much more enjoyable for people sitting off center.

Unless you plan on moving to a different space where you can install a large format screen (like a projector), don't give another thought to 4k. You're unlikely to notice a difference with 4k in your living room unless your screen fills the entire 11.5 foot width, and even then it will be subtle. Also, technology on AVRs is changing fairly rapidly, so if you do "upgrade" to a dedicated room and 4k system, you'll likely replace whatever AVR you have anyway. That said, almost every new receiver is "4k ready" these days, so you probably won't get a choice anyway.

If you want to be more future proof, buy a VTF-15H. Note also that the 15H may sound slightly better than the VTF3 at the same volume, but not by much. Otherwise, the VTF3 should still perform very well for you, given your room and preferences. It will have no problem rattling the dishes in your kitchen cabinets, for example, but it also will sound clean and smooth when played quietly.

Two notes about the location you show:
  1. A VTF-3 placed as shown will fire it's woofer at the sofa. Depending on how close the woofer is (2 inches is minimum, IIRC), this will likely contribute a lot more tactile feel for the listeners on that sofa and especially for the person sitting next to it. Whether or not the extra tactile sensations are enjoyed by you and your listeners depends on how your furniture responds and your preferences.
  2. The bass will probably be loudest for the person sitting on the right on the rear sofa and will diminish as one moves away from it. That may be a good thing if you're the one who gets to sit next to it and the kids (?) sit on the other sofa. If you want a more even response across the seats, then you may want to put it in the corner by the front right speaker. Otherwise, keeping it next to the sofa will probably give tighter and cleaner bass for the people sitting close to it than it would in the other corner.

Lastly, about the AVR I recommend going with something that offers Audyssey room correction and at least MultEQ XT. The room correction can help a lot with issues like your left-right asymmetry (wall on right side but not left) and having speakers and/or the sofa too close to the walls. The AM-40 brackets work very well when a wall mount is needed, but the speakers definitely don't sound as good that way as when pull away from the walls. Audyssey helps improve the sound despite these kinds of issues.

I currently own a Denon, but I think Onkyo makes them with Audyssey as well. In the Denon line, the X1000 or X2000 both would be worth your consideration. When running Audyssey, be sure to use a boom stand for the mic, keep your measurements to the rear sofa and within a few inches of ear level, and be sure to run all 8 of them. If you go this route, you'll want to read online about the other Audyssey features like Dynamic EQ and Dynamic Volume and experiment with these to decide what works best for you.

If this sounds like too much trouble to go through, then you're welcome to consider another brand / technology too. I'm sure if you ask in the right place, you'll get recommendations for just about anything, and most AVRs are pretty good these days.
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  #3  
Old February 28th, 2014, 12:11 PM
mfer mfer is offline
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Thanks for the response, it is appreciated.

I went to a store today and had the center turned on. I was surprised by the difference the center made. Shocked actually. So I'm getting a 3.1 now for sure.

I did also listen to some speakers there. I really wish I could hear the HB-1 MK2's. I'm not sure if I'm saying the right words here, but I really liked the MartinLogan Motion 15 5-1/4" 2 way speakers. There were very clear without being harsh. I can say clearly, I did NOT like the sub's they had. Seemed very "loose". I do have experience in car audio with Subs and those sounds bad to me (B&W sub and MartinLogan).

Can anyone comment how the HB-1's sound compare to other brands I can hear locally like, Kilpsch, MartinLogan, B&W, Energy, etc.?
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  #4  
Old March 1st, 2014, 11:02 PM
SME SME is offline
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What is your location? Someone else on this forum that you live close to you may be willing to let you visit and listen. If you live in the L.A. CA metro area, you could drive over to Hsu Research and try them there. You can also just order the speakers and send them back within 30 days for a refund (minus shipping costs) if you don't like them.

I can't really make direct comparisons because I haven't heard any of these side-by-side with Hsus in the same room. I will say that my room and system (Hsu all the way around) offers among the best sound I've heard.

If you liked the sound of the Martin Logans because of their "clear but not harsh highs" , then you'll probably like the HB-1/HC-1 a lot. The horn design achieves many of the same benefits as the folded motion tweeters including better dynamic range and lower distortion. The HB-1/HC-1 horns are unique in that have little of the harsh quality horns are known for.

I like many things about the HB-1/HC-1 speakers, but what I like best are: realistic dynamics and superb imaging and sound stage. The speakers do a great job of reproducing impulsive sounds like drums, string plucks, hammers, and so on. They sound very natural, provided the recording and mixing are done well. The imaging is incredible. With good recordings, each instrument and/or sound effect seems to occupy its own space and is easier to pick out. I have 5 channels and hear sounds pan smoothly across the front, around either side, and around the rear too. Some sound effects even seem to pan across the top of the room (for example, Golem's voice in the cave in "Hobbit: Unexpected Journey" even though I have no height channels. I've been to an Atmos theater down the street a few times and sat in the sweet spot, and while the Atmos can place things more precisely above me, I think my Hsu system sounds much more precise up front and to the sides where it matters most.

I should mention though that imaging performance depends a lot on your setup. They will image better if they are farther away from the wall than the AM-40 brackets provide. I realize you have kids, but if you can put them on stands 24" out from the wall, they'll sound better. Actually, this advice goes for just about any speakers you buy. Also, it's good if your ears aren't too close to the rear wall, with 24" also being a good minimum to aim for, if possible. Of course, in reality other constraints may force you to compromise. I have to compromise in my room as my sofa is directly against the wall. As I've said, Audyssey room correction can help a lot with these kinds of problems even though it can't fix them completely.
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  #5  
Old March 2nd, 2014, 11:12 AM
mfer mfer is offline
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Thanks again Subject Matter Expert (SME)!

I think I have been getting carried away on this. I love researching. While I can spend a lot more (I have the money), I need to be realistic and note that I don't need this much speaker (I'm looking at MLs, monitor silver, etc). I don't have the time to watch as many movies as I'd like with two young kids. I tell people all the time, "It is only expensive if you don't use it and enjoy it." Getting pricy , there on the speakers I'm considering and plus I'll need to get a high end amp to power those MLs (5 ohm stereo and 4 ohm center).

I'm also debating how much sub to get. I don't (scratch that, can't b/c the wife won't allow) want shaking of the doors, plates, etc. I guess I need localized bass. I know I can always get more sub and just turn it down but don't want to "waste" a sub if I get one too big. Also debating sealed subs too. I like clean and tight base. When I was into car audio, I had ported infinities. Sounded awesome, but compared to sealed JL subs....no contest. I don't know if the same will be applicable to HT.

Thoughts on avr?
Marantz 1504 5.1 50W (0.08% @ 8 Ohm), 60W (0.7% @ 6 Ohm)
Denon x1000 5.1 80W (0.08% @ 8 Ohm), 120W (0.7% @ 6 Ohm)
Assuming I got with HSU 3.1

I "hear" that Marantz have better video processing. Not sure what to believe.

Last edited by mfer : March 2nd, 2014 at 5:41 PM.
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  #6  
Old March 2nd, 2014, 5:41 PM
mfer mfer is offline
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If I can, let me add one more question to the group.

I don't want to pressurize the entire house.
Room with the TV is open to the left. It is 1550 cubic feet. (11.5 x 15 x 9)
Room to the immediate left is another 1380 cubic feet (12.5 x 12.25 x 9) (2930 cubic foot so far)
Room to the left left (kitchen without the 'n') is easily another 1400 cubic feet. (4330 cubic foot with kitchen...and then it opens to stairs and second living room and foyer)

Like I said, don't want to pressurize all of that. Just want decent movie watching pleasure in the main TV area.

So, would something like a VTF-15H turned down be better than a VTF3-MK4 played loud?
Should I look at a sealed sub like ULS 15 b/c I don't want to have the bass all over the house? Maybe if sealed, I could place to the right corner of the TV?

So I guess I'm asking...
Not a bass head, which type of sub for Movies without blowing up my house
1. Ported big sub not turned up? (vtf 15h)
2. Ported smaller sub turned up? (vtf3-mk4)
3. Sealed sub for more localized sound? (uls 15)

TIA!
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  #7  
Old March 3rd, 2014, 6:37 AM
mfer mfer is offline
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Sorry for all the posts, but I keep thinking.

Pondering going dual 12's (vtf2) or dual 10's (vtf1).

Any thoughts?
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  #8  
Old March 3rd, 2014, 6:11 PM
mfer mfer is offline
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Ok, well, I'm done.

Ordered a Denon AVR-X1000 and Hsu 3.1 VTF2-MK4 combo. Gonna see how that works out and may purchase another VTF2-MK4 if I see the need (or desire).
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  #9  
Old March 3rd, 2014, 10:35 PM
SME SME is offline
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You made a great choice. We look forward to hear your your impressions.

The best way to keep the bass localized is to place the sub close to where you sit and keep the auto-setup measurements close to there. This way, the sub produces less bass energy for a given sound level. This also tends to make it sound tighter, especially for mid-bass frequencies that are most important in music. The right side of your rear sofa in the corner as you've drawn will probably sound best and is a good place to start. If you are willing to experiment, you could also try the left side of the rear sofa.

I suggest calibrating with 1-port open, EQ 1, and Q=0.7. Afterwards, switch to 2 ports open, EQ 2, and Q=0.3. With any luck, that'll roll off the really low stuff that is more likely to cause dish rattling in the kitchen. I'm not sure it'll be that much of a problem though. The opening beyond the kitchen will vent much of the pressure.

As I mentioned already, you'll want to experiment with the Dynamic EQ function if you end up running with Audyssey MultEQ turned on. Audyssey Dynamic EQ boosts the lowest frequencies depending on where the volume level is set so that they sound as loud, relative to the rest of the mix, as they would at "reference level". With a low volume level and Dynamic EQ turned off, those lowest frequencies tend to drop below the threshold of hearing and not be heard at all. As such, you may prefer to turn it off to further reduce very low frequency proliferation.

You can also use the "reference offset" setting to alter where the "reference level" is assumed to be. At "10 dB" as opposed to "0 dB", it's assumed that the audio mixing was done at a volume level 10 dB less than theatrical mixes, so there's less bass boosting.

Hopefully once in a while (when your wife and kids are not home?), you'll get a chance to hear what the sub can do down low. The CD you get with it has a great organ track with pedals down to 16 Hz. Switch the sub back to EQ 1/1-port open/Q=0.7 and maybe turn off Audyssey Dynamic EQ for good measure. Then give a listen and turn the volume up as high as you are comfortable. There's nothing earth shattering here as you'd find with, say, The Incredible Hulk. Just nice, clean organ against a background of strings.

I guess I'm just lucky that my wife actually likes bass. Maybe some day yours will warm up to it as there's nothing unnatural about low frequencies. If you don't live in California, you probably get thunder that shakes the windows and house frame. Where I live, we have helicopter fly-overs. One I actually measured was putting out some fairly strong 15 Hz (give or take a couple due to Doppler shift). It's enough to "pressurize" my house, and it happens a few times a day. Once in a while, we'll get a larger copter fly-over. The feeling of pressure and window shaking starts half a minute or more before it actually passes over. Going by ear (I haven't had my measuring equipment out for one of these yet), I'd say they have strong output at 4 Hz! My house of 60 years hasn't fallen down yet.
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  #10  
Old March 4th, 2014, 1:06 PM
mfer mfer is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SME View Post
You made a great choice. We look forward to hear your your impressions.

The best way to keep the bass localized is to place the sub close to where you sit and keep the auto-setup measurements close to there. This way, the sub produces less bass energy for a given sound level. This also tends to make it sound tighter, especially for mid-bass frequencies that are most important in music. The right side of your rear sofa in the corner as you've drawn will probably sound best and is a good place to start. If you are willing to experiment, you could also try the left side of the rear sofa.

I suggest calibrating with 1-port open, EQ 1, and Q=0.7. Afterwards, switch to 2 ports open, EQ 2, and Q=0.3. With any luck, that'll roll off the really low stuff that is more likely to cause dish rattling in the kitchen. I'm not sure it'll be that much of a problem though. The opening beyond the kitchen will vent much of the pressure.

As I mentioned already, you'll want to experiment with the Dynamic EQ function if you end up running with Audyssey MultEQ turned on. Audyssey Dynamic EQ boosts the lowest frequencies depending on where the volume level is set so that they sound as loud, relative to the rest of the mix, as they would at "reference level". With a low volume level and Dynamic EQ turned off, those lowest frequencies tend to drop below the threshold of hearing and not be heard at all. As such, you may prefer to turn it off to further reduce very low frequency proliferation.

You can also use the "reference offset" setting to alter where the "reference level" is assumed to be. At "10 dB" as opposed to "0 dB", it's assumed that the audio mixing was done at a volume level 10 dB less than theatrical mixes, so there's less bass boosting.

Hopefully once in a while (when your wife and kids are not home?), you'll get a chance to hear what the sub can do down low. The CD you get with it has a great organ track with pedals down to 16 Hz. Switch the sub back to EQ 1/1-port open/Q=0.7 and maybe turn off Audyssey Dynamic EQ for good measure. Then give a listen and turn the volume up as high as you are comfortable. There's nothing earth shattering here as you'd find with, say, The Incredible Hulk. Just nice, clean organ against a background of strings.

I guess I'm just lucky that my wife actually likes bass. Maybe some day yours will warm up to it as there's nothing unnatural about low frequencies. If you don't live in California, you probably get thunder that shakes the windows and house frame. Where I live, we have helicopter fly-overs. One I actually measured was putting out some fairly strong 15 Hz (give or take a couple due to Doppler shift). It's enough to "pressurize" my house, and it happens a few times a day. Once in a while, we'll get a larger copter fly-over. The feeling of pressure and window shaking starts half a minute or more before it actually passes over. Going by ear (I haven't had my measuring equipment out for one of these yet), I'd say they have strong output at 4 Hz! My house of 60 years hasn't fallen down yet.
All this is so new to me. I wish I would have tons of time to mess with the EQ, but I won't.

If I understand you correctly.
1. set up the system as I have in my picture for first guess. Connect all wires, etc.
2. Set sub in corner I have guessed with 1-port open, EQ 1, and Q=0.7.
3. Run the audyssey program then? Per the instructions I set sub to 12 o'clock position. I really don't know what that means. It is gonna be a (*ahem*) learning experience. By learning I mean trial and error. Like I said, time will be tough. Work and Kids and usually a little more work.

Basically, I'm not sure how to run the set up properly. I've been reading, but it is hard to understand without having something in front of me to see. I'm a very visual learner. If I can write it down after I see it visually, I pretty much remember forever. Just reading is tough.

4Hz pressurization....nuts. I have no 'copters near me, just the occasional low flying lear jet. Only about one every 2 weeks and only lasts for a couple seconds. Bad news is that is usually 6AM, but most times my kids have me up before then.

I'm getting excited. I'm already thinking about the 2nd 12". The more I read about dual subs, the more they interest me. Omnipresent sounds that comes from the walls, better low volume listening. Oh yeah, when the wife and kids are gone, it should be nice little retreat for me.

For the record, my wife loves good sound and wouldn't mind bass. I do know she will hate rattling her house. Volume, I can take it a little louder (if clear) than she can. Funny thing is, I'm always asking her to lower her voice. She talks loud!
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Old March 4th, 2014, 7:11 PM
SME SME is offline
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You have the right idea for setup except one on point: Set the sub level at 9 o'clock instead of 12 o'clock. The amps in the Hsu subs have a lot more gain than most subs. If the level on the sub is set too high, then you won't be able to set the sub trim in the AVR low enough for it to properly blend with the rest of the speakers. If after auto-setup, the sub trim (or channel level, as I think Denon calls it) indicates either -12 or +12, then you'll want to decrease (for -12) or increase (for +12) the level on the sub and re-run the setup.

Don't worry about getting a second sub just yet. Concentrate on making the one you have sound best first. Integrating multiple subs adds complications. Despite all the hype, not all rooms benefit from multiple subs in different locations. Certainly you can always co-locate two subs for more output capability, but if that's what you want, then you should have bought the VTF-15H instead.
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Old March 8th, 2014, 3:29 PM
mfer mfer is offline
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Quickly turning into a BASSHEAD.....

Just wanted to let you guys know. I got everything yesterday and haven't had much time to play with it.

I set it all up and put the sub in the corner (I didn't do a sub crawl) as shown in my picture.

Ran Audyssey in the 8 positions and then put in Star Trek Darkness.

I was pretty impressed, but wasn't overwhelmed. Don't get me wrong, I was happy, but I guess I was expecting more.

Then I went into Manual EQ, set the speakers to small, changed the crossover to 90Hz for the small and down to 100Hz for the sub.

HUGE DIFFERENCE. Blown away. Basically when I was just pretty impressed above, it was just the speakers, the sub was barely functioning!!!!!

So, speakers are incredible to my novice ears. Audyssey has me stumped right now, but I'll figure it out if I ever get time. Too much going on in my life/job right now to spend the time tuning it. Hopefully in 1.5 weeks I can dedicate some time.

Also, that 16Hz track on the Hsu CD is nutz!!!!! 50% receiver volume and 25% sub volume and you can FEEL it.

I really want to figure this out. Already pondering more.......addictive to say the least.

Let's say my initial impression is impressed. And I know I'm not even tuning it correctly.

More details to come on my thoughts and review in the coming weeks, but initial impression of the Hsu speakers is impressive.
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Old March 9th, 2014, 10:07 AM
Tom C Tom C is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mfer View Post
Quickly turning into a BASSHEAD.....

Just wanted to let you guys know. I got everything yesterday and haven't had much time to play with it.

I set it all up and put the sub in the corner (I didn't do a sub crawl) as shown in my picture.

Ran Audyssey in the 8 positions and then put in Star Trek Darkness.

I was pretty impressed, but wasn't overwhelmed. Don't get me wrong, I was happy, but I guess I was expecting more.

Then I went into Manual EQ, set the speakers to small, changed the crossover to 90Hz for the small and down to 100Hz for the sub.

HUGE DIFFERENCE. Blown away. Basically when I was just pretty impressed above, it was just the speakers, the sub was barely functioning!!!!!

So, speakers are incredible to my novice ears. Audyssey has me stumped right now, but I'll figure it out if I ever get time. Too much going on in my life/job right now to spend the time tuning it. Hopefully in 1.5 weeks I can dedicate some time.

Also, that 16Hz track on the Hsu CD is nutz!!!!! 50% receiver volume and 25% sub volume and you can FEEL it.

I really want to figure this out. Already pondering more.......addictive to say the least.

Let's say my initial impression is impressed. And I know I'm not even tuning it correctly.

More details to come on my thoughts and review in the coming weeks, but initial impression of the Hsu speakers is impressive.
If you're not familiar with Audyssey here is a link to the Welcome to the Audyssey Faq and 'Audyssey 101'! thread at AVS that will help out a lot: http://www.avsforum.com/t/795421/off...#post_21782993

Also, when you manually set the sub down to 100Hz I assume your talking about the LPF for LFE. The LFE (.1) channel can go up to 120Hz. I would recommend setting it back to 120Hz.

Congat's on your purchase!
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  #14  
Old March 9th, 2014, 10:18 AM
mfer mfer is offline
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Originally Posted by Tom C View Post
If you're not familiar with Audyssey here is a link to the Welcome to the Audyssey Faq and 'Audyssey 101'! thread at AVS that will help out a lot: http://www.avsforum.com/t/795421/off...#post_21782993

Also, when you manually set the sub down to 100Hz I assume your talking about the LPF for LFE. The LFE (.1) channel can go up to 120Hz. I would recommend setting it back to 120Hz.

Congat's on your purchase!
Yup, I put it back to 120 already. Thanks.
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Old March 9th, 2014, 9:29 PM
SME SME is offline
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When it works right, Audyssey delivers awesome sound, but it is very quirky. The FAQ and tutorial linked to by TomC are indispensable!

You should have no problem setting the crossover to 80 Hz, in case localization of the sub is an issue for you.

I'm glad you are enjoying your new setup. Hopefully things remain peaceful with the wife.
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