HSU Research Forum (HRF)  

Go Back   HSU Research Forum (HRF) > Hsu Central > Hsu Research - Speakers and Subwoofers
Become a member Forum Help Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
  #1  
Old November 5th, 2008, 5:57 PM
Bori Bori is offline
Registered User
 
Member Since: Dec 2007
Posts: 93
Bori is on a distinguished road
Dual MBMs and Dual 3.3 turbos

Tell me what you think of my graph and what I can improve on.
Attached Images
 
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old November 6th, 2008, 6:18 AM
cacihome's Avatar
cacihome cacihome is offline
Registered User
 
Member Since: Mar 2007
Location: Puerto Rico
Posts: 800
cacihome is on a distinguished road
Man!
I really need one of those REW to see my room response now with my A7s + ULS.
However I am very very happy with the blind results with the two!!!HAHAH
__________________
Cacimar Hernandez
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old November 7th, 2008, 9:07 AM
thsmith thsmith is offline
Registered User
 
Member Since: Mar 2008
Posts: 120
thsmith is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bori View Post
Tell me what you think of my graph and what I can improve on.

Looks like a 20db house curve to me

A good starting point is to get the FR flat @ 75db and if needed make a 2,4,6db house curve from 30-80hz.
Attached Images
 
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old November 7th, 2008, 9:32 AM
Bori Bori is offline
Registered User
 
Member Since: Dec 2007
Posts: 93
Bori is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by thsmith View Post
Looks like a 20db house curve to me

A good starting point is to get the FR flat @ 75db and if needed make a 2,4,6db house curve from 30-80hz.
What do you mean by house curve?
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old November 10th, 2008, 10:14 AM
thsmith thsmith is offline
Registered User
 
Member Since: Mar 2008
Posts: 120
thsmith is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bori View Post
What do you mean by house curve?
See in my post above, it is a flat curve. Here is one with a 6db house curve from 30hz going flat at 80hz.

The concept around house curve can be found here http://www.hometheatershack.com/foru...ed-how-do.html
Attached Images
 
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old November 10th, 2008, 1:18 PM
Bori Bori is offline
Registered User
 
Member Since: Dec 2007
Posts: 93
Bori is on a distinguished road
How do you get yours that flat? So does this mean my house curve is bad? I just ordered a BEHRINGER DSP1124P will this help me out?

Last edited by Bori : November 10th, 2008 at 2:13 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old November 11th, 2008, 9:40 AM
thsmith thsmith is offline
Registered User
 
Member Since: Mar 2008
Posts: 120
thsmith is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bori View Post
How do you get yours that flat? So does this mean my house curve is bad? I just ordered a BEHRINGER DSP1124P will this help me out?

Lots of work moving the sub, setting phase and distance on the AVR to remove the dips as much as possible. EQ can not fix a dip.

Next the EQ to remove the peaks and flatten.

Focus on getting flat before going to House Curve. Once Flat then listen to 30hz and 80hz, most likely 80hz will sound louder (remeber this is subjective not measured) then you turn up the volume on the AVR to get the 30hz perceived sound to be at the same perceived level as 80hz. Once you know how much you turned up your receiver in db then you know how much to build your House Curve.

The house curve just boost the 30hz 6db to 0db 80hz range.

I think with your setup you many not need or want a house curve, all it is doing is allowing you to get max out of house gain.

A capable sub and right sized sub for the room will not need it. If you sub is not capable or small for room it can help but you run the risk of bottoming out or over driving your sub.

I liked it at first but later thought it was too strong sounding and was not as articulate. I Like 2db HC best and later went with no HC.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old November 11th, 2008, 6:06 PM
Bori Bori is offline
Registered User
 
Member Since: Dec 2007
Posts: 93
Bori is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by thsmith View Post
Lots of work moving the sub, setting phase and distance on the AVR to remove the dips as much as possible. EQ can not fix a dip.

Next the EQ to remove the peaks and flatten.

Focus on getting flat before going to House Curve. Once Flat then listen to 30hz and 80hz, most likely 80hz will sound louder (remeber this is subjective not measured) then you turn up the volume on the AVR to get the 30hz perceived sound to be at the same perceived level as 80hz. Once you know how much you turned up your receiver in db then you know how much to build your House Curve.

The house curve just boost the 30hz 6db to 0db 80hz range.

I think with your setup you many not need or want a house curve, all it is doing is allowing you to get max out of house gain.

A capable sub and right sized sub for the room will not need it. If you sub is not capable or small for room it can help but you run the risk of bottoming out or over driving your sub.

I liked it at first but later thought it was too strong sounding and was not as articulate. I Like 2db HC best and later went with no HC.

So are you saying that the BFD will not help my graph that much?
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old November 11th, 2008, 8:00 PM
thsmith thsmith is offline
Registered User
 
Member Since: Mar 2008
Posts: 120
thsmith is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bori View Post
So are you saying that the BFD will not help my graph that much?

Not at all, its just hard to tell with you graph. You need to set the gain down on the AVR or sub so that at about 20hz to 80hz you get the level as flat as possible at 75db. Thenn the peaks that need to be tamed are more apparent.

Here is a graph of my sub before EQing and after EQing. THS can provide a lot of support on REW. First order is to get the sub fllat as possible then look into what the EQ can do for you.

I am glad to help but have been spending most of my free time on the Polk vintage site lately.

I will check back though.

BTW, having 2 mbms and 2 true subs makes this next to impossible without starting at gound 0, start with one sub then integrate each one in at a time.

Looking at your chart again, it is obvious the 2 true subs are too hot but the MBMs look about right, assuming the true subs are XO at 45-50hz(graph also looks like your AVR XO is at 110-120 hz), thats where your graph has the big peaks. I would try to see if you can get them to both read 75db like the MBMs appear to be.

Measure one sub with AVR test tone and set to about 72-73db and then turn it off and do the other one and with both turned on the should read about 75db. I best with all 4 running then you start to get a better read.
Attached Images
  
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old November 13th, 2008, 2:20 AM
Bori Bori is offline
Registered User
 
Member Since: Dec 2007
Posts: 93
Bori is on a distinguished road
When I have them in phase I get a lot of gain in the 30 and lower frequency. When I put them 180 out of phase it flattens it out. Is this OK to do with identical subs collocated? Or am I essentially canceling them out? Here is the graph with the excessive room gain.
Attached Images
 
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old November 13th, 2008, 5:35 AM
thsmith thsmith is offline
Registered User
 
Member Since: Mar 2008
Posts: 120
thsmith is on a distinguished road
Can't say about the phase, Pete should be able to tell you how to set phase when colocated.

Again, I would start buy turning down the gain on the true subs equally until your 20-50hz db levels are closer to the 75db target.

How does it current sound to you, boomy, bloated or are you happy with the sound ?

If happy then forget it. REW is A tool to be used to help you but do not live and die by the graphs.

For example, I have a 33-36hz 8db dip that I hate when looking at the graph but I love the sound. SO I ignore it, I can remove it by moving my LP forward 24 inches.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old November 13th, 2008, 9:20 AM
Bori Bori is offline
Registered User
 
Member Since: Dec 2007
Posts: 93
Bori is on a distinguished road
I thought the whole key was to get the flattest response possible. If Pete can answer this that would be great. I will adjust the phase tomorrow to see if it gives me the flattest response possible. I will run a couple of movies to see how it sounds. When changing the phase I will need to recalibrate everything again correct?
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old November 13th, 2008, 11:09 AM
Pete_Hsu Pete_Hsu is offline
Hsu Research
 
Member Since: Dec 2004
Location: Orange County, CA
Posts: 4,212
Pete_Hsu will become famous soon enoughPete_Hsu will become famous soon enough
Bori, may I see the frequency response graph when the phase is inverted on one of the true subwoofers? Thanks
__________________
Pete - Hsu Research
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old November 13th, 2008, 12:18 PM
Bori Bori is offline
Registered User
 
Member Since: Dec 2007
Posts: 93
Bori is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete_Hsu View Post
Bori, may I see the frequency response graph when the phase is inverted on one of the true subwoofers? Thanks
This is a graph of one of the 3.3 turbos inverted. I did not do a recalibration all I did was flip the phase switch on one of the 3.3 turbos.
Attached Images
 
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old November 13th, 2008, 4:50 PM
Dr_Hsu Dr_Hsu is offline
Administrator
 
Member Since: Mar 2003
Posts: 799
Dr_Hsu is on a distinguished road
You definitely do NOT want to use the subs that way. You are using one sub to cancel most of the output of the second sub to bring the low bass level down. That is the last thing you want to do! What a waste of the subs' headroom.

Instead, try setting the bass extension switch on the subs to two ports open (25 Hz) setting but leave the turbos on. This EQ will reduce the boost below 30 Hz. Your room appears to have lots of gain down in the low bass. That is great! It means you will have tremendous headroom in the low bass.
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old November 13th, 2008, 6:17 PM
Bori Bori is offline
Registered User
 
Member Since: Dec 2007
Posts: 93
Bori is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr_Hsu View Post
You definitely do NOT want to use the subs that way. You are using one sub to cancel most of the output of the second sub to bring the low bass level down. That is the last thing you want to do! What a waste of the subs' headroom.

Instead, try setting the bass extension switch on the subs to two ports open (25 Hz) setting but leave the turbos on. This EQ will reduce the boost below 30 Hz. Your room appears to have lots of gain down in the low bass. That is great! It means you will have tremendous headroom in the low bass.

If I set the switch to 2 ports open do I need to rerun audyessy again? Is it ok to run the subs like this with all that room gain? With two port open with turbo on how deep would the 3.3 still extend to? That is what I thought that one sub was essentially cancel the other.
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old November 13th, 2008, 6:21 PM
Dr_Hsu Dr_Hsu is offline
Administrator
 
Member Since: Mar 2003
Posts: 799
Dr_Hsu is on a distinguished road
Just change the EQ and see what the frequency response look like without re-running Audessey. It should help to flatten out most of that low end rise.
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old November 13th, 2008, 6:26 PM
Bori Bori is offline
Registered User
 
Member Since: Dec 2007
Posts: 93
Bori is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr_Hsu View Post
Just change the EQ and see what the frequency response look like without re-running Audessey. It should help to flatten out most of that low end rise.

If it flattens it out then do I rerun Audyessy or just leave it alone? How deep does the 3.3 extend in Max output?
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old November 13th, 2008, 6:46 PM
Dr_Hsu Dr_Hsu is offline
Administrator
 
Member Since: Mar 2003
Posts: 799
Dr_Hsu is on a distinguished road
If it flattens it out, you do not need to re-run Audessey. Given your room response curve with the 18 Hz EQ, looked to me like the sub will extend flat down to 15 Hz even with the 25 Hz EQ.
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old November 13th, 2008, 6:50 PM
Bori Bori is offline
Registered User
 
Member Since: Dec 2007
Posts: 93
Bori is on a distinguished road
That is great news! I will try it when I get home tomorrow morning. I will post the graph after I try that. Thank you for your help Dr. Hsu, I hope this works.
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old November 14th, 2008, 1:39 AM
Bori Bori is offline
Registered User
 
Member Since: Dec 2007
Posts: 93
Bori is on a distinguished road
Hello Dr. Hsu,

The first graph is 1 port open with turbos on and the second graph is 2 ports open turbos on max output. Let me know what you think. There is a dip around the 40hz how can I improve that.
Attached Images
  
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old November 14th, 2008, 7:09 AM
Dr_Hsu Dr_Hsu is offline
Administrator
 
Member Since: Mar 2003
Posts: 799
Dr_Hsu is on a distinguished road
I would raise the level of the MBM-12s by about 4 dB, and try flipping the phase switches on the 3.3s to see if that would help in the transition between the 3.3 and MBM-12s. 80 Hz is slightly hot, so set the crossover on the MBM-12s to 'in', and play with the crossover on the MBM-12 to bring down the 80 Hz range to conform more to your 'house curve'.

Show me the response of the 3.3s alone (turn off the MBMs), and the MBM-12s (turn off the 3.3s).
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old November 14th, 2008, 8:24 AM
Bori Bori is offline
Registered User
 
Member Since: Dec 2007
Posts: 93
Bori is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr_Hsu View Post
I would raise the level of the MBM-12s by about 4 dB, and try flipping the phase switches on the 3.3s to see if that would help in the transition between the 3.3 and MBM-12s. 80 Hz is slightly hot, so set the crossover on the MBM-12s to 'in', and play with the crossover on the MBM-12 to bring down the 80 Hz range to conform more to your 'house curve'.

Show me the response of the 3.3s alone (turn off the MBMs), and the MBM-12s (turn off the 3.3s).


On the MBMs do I raise the level by 4dbs combined or 4dbs for each MBM? When I do all these adjustments do I need to rerun audyessy or can I play around with thee settings without redoing audyessy?
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old November 14th, 2008, 8:41 AM
Dr_Hsu Dr_Hsu is offline
Administrator
 
Member Since: Mar 2003
Posts: 799
Dr_Hsu is on a distinguished road
Turn on one MBM-12 at a time (3.3 and main speakers off). Play a 63 Hz tone. Set SPL to 75 dB. Turn volume on MBM to raise it to 79 dB. Repeat for other MBM. You do not need to re-adjust the Audessey.
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old November 14th, 2008, 9:04 AM
goatmother goatmother is offline
Registered User
 
Member Since: Jan 2007
Posts: 34
goatmother is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr_Hsu View Post

Instead, try setting the bass extension switch on the subs to two ports open (25 Hz) setting but leave the turbos on. This EQ will reduce the boost below 30 Hz. Your room appears to have lots of gain down in the low bass. That is great! It means you will have tremendous headroom in the low bass.

Sorry to hijack the thread. But a quick question for the Dr.

Can I do this with VTF-Ho w/Turbo (no MBM or anything else, just the one sub with my Energy RC-30's fronts, RC-10's rears). set the switch to "two ports open" even though it says to use the "one port" open setting with the turbo?

I ask because the normal set up the really low frequencies overpower.. I've been running without the Turbo for a few months on max extention mode. So if it is safe to try out the switch the other way I'm going to hook it back up and give it a try.

Sorry, I don't have any graphs or anything to show the actually frequency output, just my ears telling me that.
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old November 14th, 2008, 9:26 AM
Dr_Hsu Dr_Hsu is offline
Administrator
 
Member Since: Mar 2003
Posts: 799
Dr_Hsu is on a distinguished road
Yes, you certainly can do that. The reverse would not be good - extension switch in the 16 Hz position and both ports open with no turbo.
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old November 14th, 2008, 9:31 AM
goatmother goatmother is offline
Registered User
 
Member Since: Jan 2007
Posts: 34
goatmother is on a distinguished road
Thanks Doc, much appreciated!

Keep up the great work with all the cool options. If only I had more money to upgrade to some of those ULS-15's
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old November 14th, 2008, 9:58 AM
Bori Bori is offline
Registered User
 
Member Since: Dec 2007
Posts: 93
Bori is on a distinguished road
1st graph MBMs 4dbs hot with 3.3 turbos.
2nd graph MBMs 4dbs hot with 3.3 turbos phase inverted 180
3rd graph MBMs by themselves
4th graph 3.3 turbos by themselves
Attached Images
    
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old November 14th, 2008, 10:04 AM
goatmother goatmother is offline
Registered User
 
Member Since: Jan 2007
Posts: 34
goatmother is on a distinguished road
Bori did you do what the Doc suggested?

Quote:

"Instead, try setting the bass extension switch on the subs to two ports open (25 Hz) setting but leave the turbos on."
If so, how did that change things in your room?
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old November 14th, 2008, 10:04 AM
Bori Bori is offline
Registered User
 
Member Since: Dec 2007
Posts: 93
Bori is on a distinguished road
5th graph MBMs crossover set to 80hz
Attached Images
 
Reply With Quote
  #31  
Old November 14th, 2008, 10:06 AM
Bori Bori is offline
Registered User
 
Member Since: Dec 2007
Posts: 93
Bori is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by goatmother View Post
Bori did you do what the Doc suggested?



If so, how did that change things in your room?
It flattened the low end by a few dbs. I am still working with Dr. Hsu on smoothing things out.
Reply With Quote
  #32  
Old November 14th, 2008, 10:20 AM
Dr_Hsu Dr_Hsu is offline
Administrator
 
Member Since: Mar 2003
Posts: 799
Dr_Hsu is on a distinguished road
Try setting the crossover on the 3.3 higher and see if its response between 35 and 50 Hz would improve. If that does not help, can try to move the 3.3 a bit and see if you can improve output in the 35 - 50 Hz range without sacrificing the low bass.

Inverting phase made things worse. Keep your current phase setting.

80 Hz crossover setting on the MBM looks better.
Reply With Quote
  #33  
Old November 14th, 2008, 10:30 AM
goatmother goatmother is offline
Registered User
 
Member Since: Jan 2007
Posts: 34
goatmother is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bori View Post
It flattened the low end by a few dbs. I am still working with Dr. Hsu on smoothing things out.
Thanks. Ok, I'll just have to experiment on my own this weekend. This gives me some hope to intergrating the turbo again
Reply With Quote
  #34  
Old November 14th, 2008, 10:51 AM
Bori Bori is offline
Registered User
 
Member Since: Dec 2007
Posts: 93
Bori is on a distinguished road
1 graph xo engaged on MBM 12 to 80 hz all subs on
2 graph xo on MBM set to out all subs on
3rd graph xo on MBM set to out all subs on with 3.3 at 60hz
4th graph looks the best MBM set to out all subs on and xo on 3.3 to 45hz


It seems to me when I engage the XO on the MBM-12 it seems to mess everything up. When I set it back its better.
Attached Images
    
Reply With Quote
  #35  
Old November 14th, 2008, 11:16 AM
Dr_Hsu Dr_Hsu is offline
Administrator
 
Member Since: Mar 2003
Posts: 799
Dr_Hsu is on a distinguished road
Very weird results. Try changing the phase on the 3.3 when you engage the crossover on the MBM-12.

With your current crossover out setting, the 45 Hz graph looks best. Maybe setting the 3.3 crossover to even lower frequency will be even better.

What is the crossover setting on your processor?
Reply With Quote
  #36  
Old November 14th, 2008, 1:24 PM
Bori Bori is offline
Registered User
 
Member Since: Dec 2007
Posts: 93
Bori is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr_Hsu View Post
Very weird results. Try changing the phase on the 3.3 when you engage the crossover on the MBM-12.

With your current crossover out setting, the 45 Hz graph looks best. Maybe setting the 3.3 crossover to even lower frequency will be even better.

What is the crossover setting on your processor?

80hz is the receiver XO and I also tried 40hz XO on the 3.3s and it did not look any better. So far 45hz looks the best.

Last edited by Bori : November 14th, 2008 at 1:36 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #37  
Old November 14th, 2008, 2:04 PM
Dr_Hsu Dr_Hsu is offline
Administrator
 
Member Since: Mar 2003
Posts: 799
Dr_Hsu is on a distinguished road
OK.

With crossover 'in' on the MBM, does flipping the phase switch on the 3.3 help?
Reply With Quote
  #38  
Old November 14th, 2008, 2:28 PM
Bori Bori is offline
Registered User
 
Member Since: Dec 2007
Posts: 93
Bori is on a distinguished road
With XO in and 3.3s to 180 phase
Attached Images
 
Reply With Quote
  #39  
Old November 14th, 2008, 2:42 PM
Dr_Hsu Dr_Hsu is offline
Administrator
 
Member Since: Mar 2003
Posts: 799
Dr_Hsu is on a distinguished road
I like this better - it follows your 'house curve' better. I suspect lowering the 3.3 output by 4 dB will give an even better fit.
Reply With Quote
  #40  
Old November 14th, 2008, 3:58 PM
Bori Bori is offline
Registered User
 
Member Since: Dec 2007
Posts: 93
Bori is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr_Hsu View Post
I like this better - it follows your 'house curve' better. I suspect lowering the 3.3 output by 4 dB will give an even better fit.
So you like the 180 engaged on the 3.3 better than the 0 phase? So lower the gain on the subs 4dbs. On each 3.3 or combined 4dbs? After I do all this and get the frequency as flat as possible do i need to run Audyessy again? Can I increase the receiver level so I can run the subs hotter?
Reply With Quote
  #41  
Old November 14th, 2008, 5:48 PM
Dr_Hsu Dr_Hsu is offline
Administrator
 
Member Since: Mar 2003
Posts: 799
Dr_Hsu is on a distinguished road
Power up one 3.3, all others (main speakers, other 3.3, all MBM) off. Play 40 Hz tone, adjust for 75 dB. Adjust the 3.3's volume to lower that to 71 dB. Turn off that 3.3. Turn on the other 3.3. Do the same thing. Then measure the frequency response. If it looks good (closer to your reference curve), then you can always adjust the controller's sub out level to run the 3.3+MBM hotter if you wish. You should not need to re-run Audessey.
Reply With Quote
  #42  
Old November 14th, 2008, 6:09 PM
Bori Bori is offline
Registered User
 
Member Since: Dec 2007
Posts: 93
Bori is on a distinguished road
What about the dip at 60hz and 70hz? Should I leave that alone? So its definitly ok to change the phase and gain level on the subs after audyessy is completed? Lets say in the future if I decide to run audyessy again, should I leave the phase to 180 on my subs and do everything as I will normally do?

Last edited by Bori : November 14th, 2008 at 7:45 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #43  
Old November 14th, 2008, 7:52 PM
Dr_Hsu Dr_Hsu is offline
Administrator
 
Member Since: Mar 2003
Posts: 799
Dr_Hsu is on a distinguished road
You can try to move the MBMs and 3.3s and see if you can smooth out those dips. Of course you can also try to re-run Audessey, although I personally did not like what Audessey does.

Does the response look better after lowering the 3.3s?
Reply With Quote
  #44  
Old November 14th, 2008, 8:01 PM
Bori Bori is offline
Registered User
 
Member Since: Dec 2007
Posts: 93
Bori is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr_Hsu View Post
You can try to move the MBMs and 3.3s and see if you can smooth out those dips. Of course you can also try to re-run Audessey, although I personally did not like what Audessey does.

Does the response look better after lowering the 3.3s?
I am at work right now. I will try it around 4:00am when I get home. I will post the graphs in the morning. Will you be around the forum tomorrow?
Reply With Quote
  #45  
Old November 14th, 2008, 8:11 PM
Dr_Hsu Dr_Hsu is offline
Administrator
 
Member Since: Mar 2003
Posts: 799
Dr_Hsu is on a distinguished road
I will be on in the morning up to 10:30 a.m. PST. Unfortunately I will not have internet access for the rest of the weekend.
Reply With Quote
  #46  
Old November 14th, 2008, 8:14 PM
Bori Bori is offline
Registered User
 
Member Since: Dec 2007
Posts: 93
Bori is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr_Hsu View Post
I will be on in the morning up to 10:30 a.m. PST. Unfortunately I will not have internet access for the rest of the weekend.
I should have some more graphs up by that time. Thank you for your help, I have learned a lot today.
Reply With Quote
  #47  
Old November 15th, 2008, 1:39 AM
Bori Bori is offline
Registered User
 
Member Since: Dec 2007
Posts: 93
Bori is on a distinguished road
Here you go Dr. Hsu 3.3 4dbs lower each one.
Attached Images
 
Reply With Quote
  #48  
Old November 15th, 2008, 1:50 AM
Pete_Hsu Pete_Hsu is offline
Hsu Research
 
Member Since: Dec 2004
Location: Orange County, CA
Posts: 4,212
Pete_Hsu will become famous soon enoughPete_Hsu will become famous soon enough
Looks quite good, Bori! You should have much higher real world playback levels compared to your original config in the first post. Let us know how it sounds.
__________________
Pete - Hsu Research
Reply With Quote
  #49  
Old November 15th, 2008, 6:30 AM
thsmith thsmith is offline
Registered User
 
Member Since: Mar 2008
Posts: 120
thsmith is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bori View Post
Here you go Dr. Hsu 3.3 4dbs lower each one.

Now you are ready to make use of that BFD to tame that peak in the 28 hz region. Glad Dr HSU helped you out, back on post 9 I suggested your subs were too hot

If you will save the measurement file and send it to me, I will load it in REW and send back with filter recommendations. Are you using a Midi cable to load filters into the BFD or are you going to do it manually?

Looks like you are on the right path now and should notice a big improvement.
Reply With Quote
  #50  
Old November 15th, 2008, 7:05 AM
Dr_Hsu Dr_Hsu is offline
Administrator
 
Member Since: Mar 2003
Posts: 799
Dr_Hsu is on a distinguished road
Much better! Using the BFD to tame the 28 Hz peak and a slight boost centered at 65 Hz and 40 Hz should make the system really flat.

Will you be able to experiment with moving the MBMs a bit to see if you can get rid of the 65 Hz dip? Sometimes just moving a foot will make a difference. That would certainly be preferable compared to having to boost 65 Hz.

If you have a 3.3/MBM set in each corner, measure each set separately and tune each set separately.
Reply With Quote
  #51  
Old November 15th, 2008, 9:24 AM
Bori Bori is offline
Registered User
 
Member Since: Dec 2007
Posts: 93
Bori is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by thsmith View Post
Now you are ready to make use of that BFD to tame that peak in the 28 hz region. Glad Dr HSU helped you out, back on post 9 I suggested your subs were too hot

If you will save the measurement file and send it to me, I will load it in REW and send back with filter recommendations. Are you using a Midi cable to load filters into the BFD or are you going to do it manually?

Looks like you are on the right path now and should notice a big improvement.

Dont really now what a MIDI cable is. Would using this cable make it easier using a BFD? I dont have the BFD yet it should get it next week.
Reply With Quote
  #52  
Old November 15th, 2008, 10:21 AM
thsmith thsmith is offline
Registered User
 
Member Since: Mar 2008
Posts: 120
thsmith is on a distinguished road
For the cost learning to load the filters in manually is cheapest to do but there are things you need to learn about using the front panel.

The Midi to USB cable allows you to DL the filter settings straight from REW which is easiest. You will still need to use the front panel just to tell BFD to use Midi and to save settings.


How does it sound ?
Reply With Quote
  #53  
Old November 15th, 2008, 10:54 AM
Bori Bori is offline
Registered User
 
Member Since: Dec 2007
Posts: 93
Bori is on a distinguished road
I would like to learn to use it both ways. I am pretty tech savy and geeky when it comes to this stuff. With a little help from you guys I think I will be alright.
Reply With Quote
  #54  
Old November 15th, 2008, 1:50 PM
thsmith thsmith is offline
Registered User
 
Member Since: Mar 2008
Posts: 120
thsmith is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bori View Post
I would like to learn to use it both ways. I am pretty tech savy and geeky when it comes to this stuff. With a little help from you guys I think I will be alright.

Midi is by far the easiest for playing but since it looks like you will need only 1 filter learning the faceplate is the best.
Reply With Quote
  #55  
Old November 15th, 2008, 11:18 PM
Bori Bori is offline
Registered User
 
Member Since: Dec 2007
Posts: 93
Bori is on a distinguished road
Smith,

All I need to hook up the BFD is found on this page bottom of this page?

http://www.hometheatershack.com/foru...on-basics.html
Reply With Quote
  #56  
Old November 16th, 2008, 11:00 AM
thsmith thsmith is offline
Registered User
 
Member Since: Mar 2008
Posts: 120
thsmith is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bori View Post
Smith,

All I need to hook up the BFD is found on this page bottom of this page?

http://www.hometheatershack.com/foru...on-basics.html

Yep, run rca from AVR sub out to one of the BFD INs using XLR or rca to mono phono. Then run same side BFD OUT to sub using XLR or RCA to mono phono. Remember the BFD does R&L inputs and outputs, you are only concerned with one side, your choice.

Be prepared to have a ground hum and short term work around is to use a cheater plug at your own risk.
Reply With Quote
  #57  
Old November 16th, 2008, 12:02 PM
Bori Bori is offline
Registered User
 
Member Since: Dec 2007
Posts: 93
Bori is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by thsmith View Post
Yep, run rca from AVR sub out to one of the BFD INs using XLR or rca to mono phono. Then run same side BFD OUT to sub using XLR or RCA to mono phono. Remember the BFD does R&L inputs and outputs, you are only concerned with one side, your choice.

Be prepared to have a ground hum and short term work around is to use a cheater plug at your own risk.
I should be getting it tomorrow. Hopefully it will be delivered early enough to start some work on it.
Reply With Quote
  #58  
Old November 16th, 2008, 5:47 PM
Bori Bori is offline
Registered User
 
Member Since: Dec 2007
Posts: 93
Bori is on a distinguished road
What are the dimensions for the BFD is it 19 inches wide with the rack tabs or does that make it wider?
Reply With Quote
  #59  
Old November 16th, 2008, 6:33 PM
thsmith thsmith is offline
Registered User
 
Member Since: Mar 2008
Posts: 120
thsmith is on a distinguished road
19" with rack mounts, 17" without but without mounts there is an open area on the sides. If a person wanted to they could take a hacksaw to the mounts, done off the BFD of course.

I am posting my BFD and Midi stuff on the for sale section
Reply With Quote
  #60  
Old November 16th, 2008, 6:54 PM
Bori Bori is offline
Registered User
 
Member Since: Dec 2007
Posts: 93
Bori is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by thsmith View Post
19" with rack mounts, 17" without but without mounts there is an open area on the sides. If a person wanted to they could take a hacksaw to the mounts, done off the BFD of course.

I am posting my BFD and Midi stuff on the for sale section

Why are you selling it? Can I use the Radio Shack SPL meter to use for the BFD.

Last edited by Bori : November 16th, 2008 at 7:15 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #61  
Old November 17th, 2008, 4:56 AM
thsmith thsmith is offline
Registered User
 
Member Since: Mar 2008
Posts: 120
thsmith is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bori View Post
Why are you selling it? Can I use the Radio Shack SPL meter to use for the BFD.
Selling due to different direction. Yes, you can use RS SPL but best used for Sub freqs not accurate enought to measure above 3Khz.
Reply With Quote
  #62  
Old November 17th, 2008, 5:24 PM
Bori Bori is offline
Registered User
 
Member Since: Dec 2007
Posts: 93
Bori is on a distinguished road
THSMITH,

I know how to connect the BFD but, what do I need to do first to get started. I looked at the directions on HTS but, I am not sure what to do with the adjusting the volume in the receiver. I have the receiver volume set to a couple of dbs hot. Do I need to change this?
Reply With Quote
  #63  
Old November 17th, 2008, 6:37 PM
thsmith thsmith is offline
Registered User
 
Member Since: Mar 2008
Posts: 120
thsmith is on a distinguished road
I turn the sub off when I do this.

I use the Darla scene and turn my AVR voulme up to max which for me is 0 and adjust sub out level on AVR until I start to see little peaks of yellow on the BFD. Make sure you have the BFD in by-pass mode doing this.

Key point, where ever your sub gain is set on the AVR is where you leave it, no longer gets adjusted, all bass increase or decrease is done at sub amps.

you need to read this link, here is a c&p basically for what I said above.

http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/bfdguide/


SETTING THE INPUT LEVELS ON THE BFD


After powering on the unit you will need to set the input level. The BFD is more commonly used in recording studio's and concerts, etc. It was not really designed for use in home theater systems nor for equalizing home audio subwoofers. When setting up a studio or concert, the level is usually the same. Most concerts I've ever been to keep the volume level the same (very loud!) during the entire event... they set it and forget it. At home we vary our volume level because we have several different input sources and different listening levels at different times. Our sources (DVD Players, CD Players, Tuners, etc.) usually have fixed outputs and they are in the audio chain prior to the pre/pro or receiver. The BFD is in the chain after the pre/pro or receiver. Plus we are not setting this on auto pilot and letting it search out frequencies to destroy feedback as the name of the unit would imply. It can cut a feedback frequency by up to 48db. We are using it as a parametric equalizer to tame subwoofer frequency response peaks... we surely don't want to eliminate them completely. Thus, we have to set the input level on the BFD so that during our maximum listening volume, it doesn't clip.

On the top right front of the unit you will see the "IN/OUT" button. Press and hold this button for a moment until the button light blinks. You are now in the "BYPASS" mode with no filtering active. You can only monitor the setting of the input level in the "BYPASS" mode. The input level is monitored by the LED's in the far left section of the display window. If the unit is not in the "BYPASS" mode then the LED's will monitor the "output" level. We want to monitor the "input" level. Play a CD or DVD with some good deep bass (U-571 with the depth charge scenes is a good one to use if you have it). Play the source at the maximum level you would listen to it. You should notice the green LED's moving up and down. You may only see part of or all of the green LED's lit or you may see all of them lit up along with the yellow and the red LED at the top lit (they will vary with input). The red LED at the top is labeled "CLIP". Your goal is to see the yellow LED close to the top blink on loud bass sections of the music or movies. It is okay if the red LED blinks occasionally as well... as long as it's not constantly lit. Remember... there's a reason it's labeled "CLIP". To adjust how far up the LED's blink you will adjust your sub output level on your pre/pro or receiver's speaker level menu or sub level control. (Your volume control on your sub has nothing to do with the input level.) On one of my pre/pros I had my sub level set to zero initially. After I connected my BFD I raised the sub output level to +3. This allowed the yellow LED and occasionally the red LED to blink during the loudest scenes of movies. Remember, the input level of the BFD should be set in the "BYPASS" mode (the "IN/OUT" button will be blinking). Once you have set the output level on your pre/pro or receiver you can then adjust the output level (volume control) on your sub to equal your mains. I used the AVIA DVD to match the levels of my speakers. AVIA instructions are easy to follow and the DVD will give you a host of other tools to use for video and audio calibrations. There are other DVDs and CDs available for this... such as DVE (DIGITAL VIDEO ESSENTIALS). You will also need to repeat the reset of the sub vs. main levels once you later complete the filter setups. You may find that once you have smoothed out peaks that your sub level doesn't seem loud enough. I had to turn my sub volume up for my taste. Remember not to adjust the volume of your sub via your pre/pro or receiver after you have set the input level... use you sub volume or the volume on the amp connected to your sub, which should be inline after the BFD.

NOTE: Something that you should remember to do when you are setting up your BFD is add a foot to the value you enter for sub distance in your pre/pro or receiver set up. The 1 msec DSP processing delay in the BFD would account for approximately a foot in distance.
Reply With Quote
  #64  
Old November 17th, 2008, 6:41 PM
Bori Bori is offline
Registered User
 
Member Since: Dec 2007
Posts: 93
Bori is on a distinguished road
So after that than I am good to go and be able to apply the filters and boost? Right now I have mine at -2 on my AVR do I need to have it higher than that? What will happen if I change the level on the AVR later on? Do I have to rerun everything?

Edit: I just read your post again and now I got what your doing. You set the gain on your AVR and then jack up the volume on a certain bass scene thats very strong. Then you raise the volume on your receiver to the max to make sure it doesnt clip. Right? You just turn off the subs to make sure you dont blow the driver. Is the dreaded HUM coming from the speakers or the BFD?

Last edited by Bori : November 17th, 2008 at 7:20 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #65  
Old November 17th, 2008, 7:23 PM
thsmith thsmith is offline
Registered User
 
Member Since: Mar 2008
Posts: 120
thsmith is on a distinguished road
Yes and hum in most cases is due to ground loop from cable or SAT. Power hum will come out of sub but not a sub issue. I am not to up on this, I had the problem and exhasuted using several differnt solutions and ended up using cheater plug. I think it has more to do with balanced vs unbalanced circuit. BFD is pro audio gear and most of Pro Audio uses balanced circuits like XLR but our AVRs use unbalance circiuts like the RCA I/F. HTS under BFD has a whole sticky on this.



Once you have set the output level on your pre/pro or receiver you can then adjust the output level (volume control) on your sub to equal your mains. You will also need to repeat the reset of the sub vs. main levels once you later complete the filter setups. You may find that once you have smoothed out peaks that your sub level doesn't seem loud enough. I had to turn my sub volume up for my taste. Remember not to adjust the volume of your sub via your pre/pro or receiver after you have set the input level... use you sub volume or the volume on the amp connected to your sub, which should be inline after the BFD.
Reply With Quote
  #66  
Old November 17th, 2008, 8:35 PM
Bori Bori is offline
Registered User
 
Member Since: Dec 2007
Posts: 93
Bori is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by thsmith View Post
Yes and hum in most cases is due to ground loop from cable or SAT. Power hum will come out of sub but not a sub issue. I am not to up on this, I had the problem and exhasuted using several differnt solutions and ended up using cheater plug. I think it has more to do with balanced vs unbalanced circuit. BFD is pro audio gear and most of Pro Audio uses balanced circuits like XLR but our AVRs use unbalance circiuts like the RCA I/F. HTS under BFD has a whole sticky on this.



Once you have set the output level on your pre/pro or receiver you can then adjust the output level (volume control) on your sub to equal your mains. You will also need to repeat the reset of the sub vs. main levels once you later complete the filter setups. You may find that once you have smoothed out peaks that your sub level doesn't seem loud enough. I had to turn my sub volume up for my taste. Remember not to adjust the volume of your sub via your pre/pro or receiver after you have set the input level... use you sub volume or the volume on the amp connected to your sub, which should be inline after the BFD.
Would changing the volume on the subs screw up what Dr. Hsu and I worked on last week?
Reply With Quote
  #67  
Old November 18th, 2008, 4:28 AM
thsmith thsmith is offline
Registered User
 
Member Since: Mar 2008
Posts: 120
thsmith is on a distinguished road
Should'nt
Reply With Quote
  #68  
Old November 18th, 2008, 10:25 AM
Bori Bori is offline
Registered User
 
Member Since: Dec 2007
Posts: 93
Bori is on a distinguished road
Ok I connected the BFD and set the input level. Should I adjust the volume on the subs to be the same as the mains now? I did adjust the volume on the subs and it did somewhat change the way my graph looks now. The 3.3 subs are at 74dbs combined now and the MBMs are at 79 dbs combined. This is the way the graph looks now. Do I apply the filters after I adjust the volume on the subs or before? I actually had the 3.3s earlier to 78 dbs combined and the graph from 30 below was even higher. I just need to no if I am doing something wrong.
Attached Images
 
Reply With Quote
  #69  
Old November 18th, 2008, 1:31 PM
thsmith thsmith is offline
Registered User
 
Member Since: Mar 2008
Posts: 120
thsmith is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bori View Post
Ok I connected the BFD and set the input level. Should I adjust the volume on the subs to be the same as the mains now? I did adjust the volume on the subs and it did somewhat change the way my graph looks now. The 3.3 subs are at 74dbs combined now and the MBMs are at 79 dbs combined. This is the way the graph looks now. Do I apply the filters after I adjust the volume on the subs or before? I actually had the 3.3s earlier to 78 dbs combined and the graph from 30 below was even higher. I just need to no if I am doing something wrong.
First off did you add 1 foot more distance for the sub on your AVR since adding BFD, if not do so per BFDguide. Then take another reading.

Your goal before applying filters is to get as flat as possible which you are nearly there, personally your MBMs or 50-80hz (assuming AVR XO is 80hz) could come up a few DB.

Then apply your filters using this method, you need to read the entire document but for sure this part.
http://www.hometheatershack.com/foru...html#post55647

Optimize REW filters for response smoothing...
First, REW calibrate for the standard 75 dB Target in the Settings panel. Take your measurement sweep, then adjust your viewing window for a 20-130 dB setting, using the Graph Limits box (top right of screen), so that your response curve doesnít look so scary. (NOTE: This is mainly for your benefit Ė REW will recommend its filters irrespective of widow resolution.)

Next, re-adjust the Target Level to a good midway point between your response peaks and depressions - or if your particular curve permits, align the Target to where it most closely tracks the bulk of your response curve.

Under Trace Adjustments, set the Smoothing option to 1/3-octave, which will help induce REW to focus more on the most serious problems instead of the minor ones. Then under Filter Tasks, limit the Find Peaks range to a bit below your crossover point. The response youíre seeing close to the crossover frequency is most likely duplicated by the mains, so itís to no effect to equalize up there. (Of course, this needs to be verified by comparing graphs for sub only, mains only, and both together.)

Next run the Find Peaks, Assign Filters, Optimize PK Gain, and Adjust PK Gain functions.
Reply With Quote
  #70  
Old November 18th, 2008, 1:50 PM
Bori Bori is offline
Registered User
 
Member Since: Dec 2007
Posts: 93
Bori is on a distinguished road
Yes I did add the foot in then receiver settings and I did look at the graph before I changed the volume. Everything seemed ok then. Do I need to set the volume on the subs back to what Dr. Hsu and I worked on last week? I also finally figured out how to add filters manually in the BFD. So I am definitely getting there, slowly but surely. I posted some graphs on HTS after I applied a filter. This was after I jacked up the volume on the subs. I will reset the volume tomorrow morning again to see if I can get the flat response I had before. Does the save light continue to blink as long as the unit is on? By the way when do you hear the hum? I dont think mine is humming at all. I must of got lucky

Last edited by Bori : November 18th, 2008 at 3:49 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #71  
Old November 19th, 2008, 2:08 AM
Bori Bori is offline
Registered User
 
Member Since: Dec 2007
Posts: 93
Bori is on a distinguished road
THSMITH,

I was able to get it pretty flat again and applied two filter one at 25hz and another at 50 and this is the graph I got after that. I have not increased the volume to try and run it hot.
Attached Images
 
Reply With Quote
  #72  
Old November 19th, 2008, 4:04 PM
Bori Bori is offline
Registered User
 
Member Since: Dec 2007
Posts: 93
Bori is on a distinguished road
My latest graph

I want to start off by thanking Dr. Hsu, Thsmith, and Pete Hsu for all there help. I have learned a lot in the pass two weeks regarding equalizing subwoofers. This is my latest graph, I was able to flatten it out a bit more with just two filters from my last graph. Let me know what you think and if there is anything I need to improve on. Is there anything I can do about the peak around 78hz?
Attached Images
 
Reply With Quote
  #73  
Old November 19th, 2008, 6:01 PM
thsmith thsmith is offline
Registered User
 
Member Since: Mar 2008
Posts: 120
thsmith is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bori View Post
I want to start off by thanking Dr. Hsu, Thsmith, and Pete Hsu for all there help. I have learned a lot in the pass two weeks regarding equalizing subwoofers. This is my latest graph, I was able to flatten it out a bit more with just two filters from my last graph. Let me know what you think and if there is anything I need to improve on. Is there anything I can do about the peak around 78hz?
Bori, your latest graph looks great, you have come a long way since post #1 on this thread.

The big question is HOW DOES IT SOUND ?

REW is a pretty darn good tool, isn't it.

BTW, you are welcome. Now you have to help someones else use REW

Not much you can do with that 78hz peak if your AVR XO is at 80hz, not suppose to put filters at AVR XO point. I would not worry about it right now, I would be putting some favorites on and spending some time enjoying all that hard work.

If you really want to tackle it add your mains back in and take measurements and see what happens. When measuring sub and mains be sure to select FULL RANGE under target settings when posting graphs.
Reply With Quote
  #74  
Old November 19th, 2008, 6:13 PM
Bori Bori is offline
Registered User
 
Member Since: Dec 2007
Posts: 93
Bori is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by thsmith View Post
Bori, your latest graph looks great, you have come a long way since post #1 on this thread.

The big question is HOW DOES IT SOUND ?

REW is a pretty darn good tool, isn't it.

BTW, you are welcome. Now you have to help someones else use REW

Not much you can do with that 78hz peak if your AVR XO is at 80hz. I would not worry about it right now, I would be putting some favorites on and spending some time enjoying all that hard work.

If you really want to tackle it add your mains back in and take measurements and see what happens. When measuring sub and mains be sure to select FULL RANGE under target settings.

I popped in WOW and watched some of the lightening strikes and now I could tell I was missing some bass. The lightening strikes when Tom Cruise and his daughter hid under the table. Before I would not hear or feel anything. Now I could definitly get both. The bass is more even across the board and not localized. Yes REW is a great tool and I willing to pass my knowledge on to anyone that needs help. Using the front panel on the BFD is pretty easy also, once I figured it out. Thank you for all your help I really appreciate it.
Reply With Quote
  #75  
Old November 19th, 2008, 6:51 PM
Pete_Hsu Pete_Hsu is offline
Hsu Research
 
Member Since: Dec 2004
Location: Orange County, CA
Posts: 4,212
Pete_Hsu will become famous soon enoughPete_Hsu will become famous soon enough
I really appreciate all your efforts and kind words, bori! It's great to hear that your subjective experience has improved too! Thanks to Tracy as well for going the extra mile to help out.
__________________
Pete - Hsu Research
Reply With Quote
  #76  
Old November 20th, 2008, 4:48 AM
thsmith thsmith is offline
Registered User
 
Member Since: Mar 2008
Posts: 120
thsmith is on a distinguished road
Your welcome. One of the things I always liked about the HSU forum is the help and assistance people here are willing to provide.

I am just glad to have something to offer.

Bori has really gotten it and hopefully will inspire others.

Even people with other EQ products including auto EQ can benifit from learning REW to address dips, phase settings and placement.

I think sometimes people believe REW and BFD are a combined package, not the case.

Having True subs and MBMs really add to the flexibilty of achieveing great sounding, clear and articulate bass.
Reply With Quote
  #77  
Old November 21st, 2008, 2:17 AM
Bori Bori is offline
Registered User
 
Member Since: Dec 2007
Posts: 93
Bori is on a distinguished road
I thought you guys might want to know that I think I eliminated most of the dips and flattened the graph(with mains included)even more. I ended moving both MBMs to the same side of the room.
Attached Images
 

Last edited by Bori : November 21st, 2008 at 4:10 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #78  
Old November 21st, 2008, 6:44 AM
Dr_Hsu Dr_Hsu is offline
Administrator
 
Member Since: Mar 2003
Posts: 799
Dr_Hsu is on a distinguished road
You got the bass to be very nice and smooth! Congrats!

We are always here to help anyone to optimize their system.

As a side note, if your graph includes the main speakers, you have the bass set about 20 dB hotter than the main speakers!
Reply With Quote
  #79  
Old November 21st, 2008, 4:11 PM
Pete_Hsu Pete_Hsu is offline
Hsu Research
 
Member Since: Dec 2004
Location: Orange County, CA
Posts: 4,212
Pete_Hsu will become famous soon enoughPete_Hsu will become famous soon enough
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr_Hsu View Post
As a side note, if your graph includes the main speakers, you have the bass set about 20 dB hotter than the main speakers!
HA HA, good observation! If true, that would give new meaning to the word 'hot'.
__________________
Pete - Hsu Research
Reply With Quote
  #80  
Old November 21st, 2008, 4:20 PM
Bori Bori is offline
Registered User
 
Member Since: Dec 2007
Posts: 93
Bori is on a distinguished road
Here we go another issue How can I resolve this? By the spl the subs are only 3dbs above 75dbs. What do I need to work on to fix this problem. When I measure each speaker individually they are all set at reference.
Reply With Quote
  #81  
Old November 21st, 2008, 4:30 PM
Dr_Hsu Dr_Hsu is offline
Administrator
 
Member Since: Mar 2003
Posts: 799
Dr_Hsu is on a distinguished road
The sub may be only 3 dB above 75 dB (averaging about 80 dB from 16 - 40 Hz), but the main speakers are averaging only 60 dB from 100 - 180 Hz. You have to raise your main speakers to average about 75 dB if you want the sub to be about 3 dB hotter than the mains. Can you run your system response up to at least 500 Hz so we can tell what your main speakers are doing?

However, you may not like it that way: 18 - 20 dB less bass will sound extremely bass shy compared to what you have now!
Reply With Quote
  #82  
Old November 21st, 2008, 4:36 PM
Bori Bori is offline
Registered User
 
Member Since: Dec 2007
Posts: 93
Bori is on a distinguished road
15-2000hz I can provide as of right now. I will post the 0-500hz tomorrow. Could the problem lye on the changes we made after audyessy was ran?


http://www.hometheatershack.com/foru...0-2000-new.jpg
Reply With Quote
  #83  
Old November 21st, 2008, 4:38 PM
Dr_Hsu Dr_Hsu is offline
Administrator
 
Member Since: Mar 2003
Posts: 799
Dr_Hsu is on a distinguished road
15 - 2000 Hz would be just fine.
Reply With Quote
  #84  
Old November 21st, 2008, 4:45 PM
Bori Bori is offline
Registered User
 
Member Since: Dec 2007
Posts: 93
Bori is on a distinguished road
15-2000hz

Here it is.
Attached Images
 
Reply With Quote
  #85  
Old November 21st, 2008, 5:24 PM
Pete_Hsu Pete_Hsu is offline
Hsu Research
 
Member Since: Dec 2004
Location: Orange County, CA
Posts: 4,212
Pete_Hsu will become famous soon enoughPete_Hsu will become famous soon enough
Bori, you can always lower the subwoofer channel level on the receiver to bring the MBM/VTF combo more in line with the main speakers. Whether or not you would prefer it that way is another story though!
__________________
Pete - Hsu Research
Reply With Quote
  #86  
Old November 21st, 2008, 5:40 PM
Bori Bori is offline
Registered User
 
Member Since: Dec 2007
Posts: 93
Bori is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete_Hsu View Post
Bori, you can always lower the subwoofer channel level on the receiver to bring the MBM/VTF combo more in line with the main speakers. Whether or not you would prefer it that way is another story though!
I already have it at -14 receiver and subs are running through a BFD. So I would have to readjust the listening level again. I like the bass that I get now its not too hot but compared to my mains it is. I don't know what is causing my mains to drop off so much?
Reply With Quote
  #87  
Old November 21st, 2008, 7:25 PM
Dr_Hsu Dr_Hsu is offline
Administrator
 
Member Since: Mar 2003
Posts: 799
Dr_Hsu is on a distinguished road
Which channel on the processor are you feeding the test signal? How high are the level setting on the 3.3 and MBM volume control?
Reply With Quote
  #88  
Old November 21st, 2008, 7:35 PM
Bori Bori is offline
Registered User
 
Member Since: Dec 2007
Posts: 93
Bori is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr_Hsu View Post
Which channel on the processor are you feeding the test signal? How high are the level setting on the 3.3 and MBM volume control?
I believe they are all around 10:00 or a little over. If you mean the channel on the BFD its left channel.
Reply With Quote
  #89  
Old November 22nd, 2008, 3:13 AM
Bori Bori is offline
Registered User
 
Member Since: Dec 2007
Posts: 93
Bori is on a distinguished road
Sorry guys I had Audyessy off that is why the mains and highs look so bad. I screw up and reran audyessy. How does this graph look with out any filters.
Attached Images
 

Last edited by Bori : November 22nd, 2008 at 4:27 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #90  
Old November 22nd, 2008, 7:19 AM
Dr_Hsu Dr_Hsu is offline
Administrator
 
Member Since: Mar 2003
Posts: 799
Dr_Hsu is on a distinguished road
It does look better, although the main speakers are still about 16 dB lower in level (100 - 200 Hz range is averaging 60 dB or so).

Are you feeding the test signals to the left and right inputs on the receiver? Is the receiver set up for 2.1 channel operation when you are feeding test signals for the frequency response measurements?
Reply With Quote
  #91  
Old November 22nd, 2008, 10:44 AM
bsoko bsoko is offline
Registered User
 
Member Since: Apr 2007
Posts: 356
bsoko is on a distinguished road
Shouldn't all setups be done in "pro logic" mode on the reciever?

Bill
Reply With Quote
  #92  
Old November 22nd, 2008, 2:56 PM
Bori Bori is offline
Registered User
 
Member Since: Dec 2007
Posts: 93
Bori is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr_Hsu View Post
It does look better, although the main speakers are still about 16 dB lower in level (100 - 200 Hz range is averaging 60 dB or so).

Are you feeding the test signals to the left and right inputs on the receiver? Is the receiver set up for 2.1 channel operation when you are feeding test signals for the frequency response measurements?
I believe its in stereo mode when running REW.
Reply With Quote
  #93  
Old November 22nd, 2008, 3:15 PM
Dr_Hsu Dr_Hsu is offline
Administrator
 
Member Since: Mar 2003
Posts: 799
Dr_Hsu is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by bsoko View Post
Shouldn't all setups be done in "pro logic" mode on the reciever?

Bill
When using the receiver's internal test signal, I usually set the receiver to Dolby Digital mode. When sending a mono test signal from an external source, I set the receiver to stereo (with bass management on) mode.
Reply With Quote
  #94  
Old November 22nd, 2008, 3:34 PM
Dr_Hsu Dr_Hsu is offline
Administrator
 
Member Since: Mar 2003
Posts: 799
Dr_Hsu is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bori View Post
I believe its in stereo mode when running REW.
Which input did you feed the REW's signal to? L and R CD input, L & R DVD input?

When you play the receiver's internal test tones, what SPL readings do you get for the main speakers and for the subwoofer channel?
Reply With Quote
  #95  
Old November 22nd, 2008, 7:37 PM
Bori Bori is offline
Registered User
 
Member Since: Dec 2007
Posts: 93
Bori is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr_Hsu View Post
Which input did you feed the REW's signal to? L and R CD input, L & R DVD input?

When you play the receiver's internal test tones, what SPL readings do you get for the main speakers and for the subwoofer channel?

I feed it through one of the auxillary inputs on my receiver. I had it on all channels. I turned it off and set it to stereo. I seem to get a better response now. I will post a graph later on. Thanks for your help Dr. Hsu.
Reply With Quote
  #96  
Old November 22nd, 2008, 10:39 PM
Dr_Hsu Dr_Hsu is offline
Administrator
 
Member Since: Mar 2003
Posts: 799
Dr_Hsu is on a distinguished road
You are most welcome. Look forward to seeing your new graph.
Reply With Quote
  #97  
Old November 23rd, 2008, 9:58 AM
thsmith thsmith is offline
Registered User
 
Member Since: Mar 2008
Posts: 120
thsmith is on a distinguished road
Bori, When measuring sub and mains be sure to select FULL RANGE under target settings when posting graphs.

It gives you straight line vs rolloff for sub at the DB reference level view.

Here is a Vintage Polk Audio Monitor 12, in this case I am not running the sub as I wanted to see how low it would go but you get the idea on the ref line view, talk about midbass
Attached Images
 
Reply With Quote
  #98  
Old November 23rd, 2008, 5:29 PM
Bori Bori is offline
Registered User
 
Member Since: Dec 2007
Posts: 93
Bori is on a distinguished road
Why do you thing my mains and highs are so much lower than the Sub?
Reply With Quote
  #99  
Old November 24th, 2008, 2:51 AM
Bori Bori is offline
Registered User
 
Member Since: Dec 2007
Posts: 93
Bori is on a distinguished road
1st graph subs only
2nd graph subs and mains
Attached Images
  
Reply With Quote
  #100  
Old November 24th, 2008, 4:31 AM
thsmith thsmith is offline
Registered User
 
Member Since: Mar 2008
Posts: 120
thsmith is on a distinguished road
They may not be, you graph is up to only 200hz.

Do this

run sweep 0hz to 3khz (if using RS SPL, 3Khz is about it is accurate too)
apply 1/3 smoothing
set speakers to full range

post graph
Reply With Quote
  #101  
Old November 24th, 2008, 4:53 AM
Bori Bori is offline
Registered User
 
Member Since: Dec 2007
Posts: 93
Bori is on a distinguished road
I am trying to get a flat subwoofer response. Went through the setup again because the first one got screwed up. That is why I posted those graphs. I have a flat response until I added the mains. What should I do?
Reply With Quote
  #102  
Old November 24th, 2008, 11:02 AM
Bori Bori is offline
Registered User
 
Member Since: Dec 2007
Posts: 93
Bori is on a distinguished road
1st graph subs only
2nd graph subs and mains xo at 150hz
These are the most up to date graph I have. The subs are flat to 14hz and I am running them a little hot.
Attached Images
  
Reply With Quote
  #103  
Old November 24th, 2008, 2:06 PM
thsmith thsmith is offline
Registered User
 
Member Since: Mar 2008
Posts: 120
thsmith is on a distinguished road
For second graph with sub and mains do the following

run sweep 0hz to 3khz (if using RS SPL, 3Khz is about it is accurate too)
apply 1/3 smoothing
set speakers to full range
Post graph.
Reply With Quote
  #104  
Old November 24th, 2008, 2:53 PM
Bori Bori is offline
Registered User
 
Member Since: Dec 2007
Posts: 93
Bori is on a distinguished road
Set all speakers in the receiver to full range? I have a question regarding the BFD. The first time I set it up I had no problem setting the volume in the receiver and bypass on the BFD. Now when I set it up and set the volume on the receiver it clips at a volume that was not clipping before during strong bass scenes. What could of happened between the first time and now? Could it of been when I used it the first time I ran audyssey with the 16hz switch engaged? Now I ran audyssey with the 25hz switch engaged on the main subs. By the way the first time I used the same scene from War of the Worlds during the destruction of the highway while Tom Cruise and his kids drive away. When I set it up the first time I would never see yellow or red on the BFD. Now I see yellow flashing and red flashing sometimes but does not stay on during my regular listening level. The only difference was like I said earlier was the 18hz switch. Maybe audyessy did some EQing that helped in not maxing out the BFD. My receiver is set up to the lowest -15 the lowest level there is. Should I add more filters to flatten it out to 75dbs? Right now I am using 1 filter. The only thing I do not feel like the bass is very strong. I was wondering if I need to flatten it down to 75dbs then raise the volume on the subs?

Last edited by Bori : November 24th, 2008 at 6:52 PM.
Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:
 

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump
 


All times are GMT -8. The time now is 8:00 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Forum Rules The Golden Rule: Treat others as you would want to be treated.

Technical Support: The best way to get tech support for serious issues is to call or email us. Questions asked on the forum may not be answered by qualified professionals.

No "Flaming": Spiteful talk and flaming wars will lead to "time-outs" for parties involved.

Shootouts: Shootouts are comparisons between products. We need to know about shootouts before allowing them on the forum, so call us and talk to the director of Sales before posting. Otherwise, your shootout may be removed.

Add to Reputation: Once you are a registered member, you can click this icon to add to the tally of other members' Rep Points. You must vote for seven other people before you can vote for the same person twice.

Report Bad Posts: Once you register, click this icon to let Administrators know if they should review a post. Please be specific as to why action might be needed.

HSU RESEARCH IS NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR COMMENTS MADE BY THIRD PARTY INDIVIDUALS ON THIS FORUM.

Thanks for reading the rules. Have a good time :)

In Association With