VTF3-MK3 vs SVS pc20-39 PLus

[roma94]

I am considering this model and wanted to know what the frequency response is, the web page only says +/-2 from 18hz but does not say if that is to 60hz or 80hz or 120hz etc..etc..
Does anyone know of a review or charts showing what it is capable of doing? I would like to take advantage of the entry price but not when I'm in Canada it's too exspensive in taxes,duty, and shipping to send this back.

I currently use the SVS PC 20-39 Plus, and would like to know if the VTF3 is capable of competing with the SVS Plus in overall SPL and depth as it is a significant difference in wattage 525w vs 350w. I am satisfied with the PC Plus except the response in mid levels.

[Ddavidson]

Don't be mislead by specs they simply don't tell you the complete story. After having directly compared the PC 20-39 Plus to both my TN1220 and VTF-3 Mk2 (and then comparing the new Mk3 to my TN/Mk2 combo) there is no doubt the Mk3 will significantly out perform the PC 20-39 Plus.

However the real benefit are in the SQ and overall tightness.

I have not yet measured the Mk3 but as a conservative guess after listening (knowing the TN/VTFMk2 so well) it would be at least flat +/-2dB out to 100-120Hz. As a guide looking at some old groundplane notes that I made .... the Mk2 measures +/-3dB out to about 140Hz.

You also could add the MBM-12 to make up for the PC 20-39 Plus's lack of midbass, however the big bonus in the added tightness of the Mk3's bottom end, which is such a vast improvement to what the PC 20-39 Plus delivers.

Ddavidson

[roma94]

Thanks Ddavidson, I guess it's difficult to understand how less less wattage from the VTF3-MK can be as potent as the 525watts I get from my SVS PC Plus, I mean this thing really belts out some high spl and very low freqs. without breaking a sweat in my room of 2000 cubft. I usually use it 20hz mode without port blocks and I get down to 16hz, so I must say if the vtf3 MK3 can be the same or better as you claim and provide more mid bass that is incredible.

[Ddavidson]

Roma94 ha-ha if only Dr Hsu would give away his knowledge then we could all be into DIY sub building. In all seriousness its all about having a very gifted and talented designer who knows exactly how to make all the components work to their maximum efficiency and be as balanced as possible across its operating range (within its price range). This is not as easy as many make out ...... which is clearly evident when directly comparing the many offerings available.

With the latest mk3 versions I am starting to believe that Dr Hsu is not only stamping his authority on his direct competition but he is also trying to put the DIY industry into a bit of a tail spin. The pricing for a turn the key subwoofer of such performance and SQ is quite simply amazing. In 2002 my first VTF-3 was $899 direct and yet the new VTF-3 Mk3 (a quantum leap forward) now sells for a ludicrous $649.

I have listened to several subs lately that do sound and perform better than any of my Hsu's however the sticker price is 3x-4x the price. (If only I could win the lottery)

I hope you do find the time to put the Mk3 up against the PC Plus in your system. Then you can tell us (warts and all) what you opinion is. After all ........ the reality is that yours is the only opinion that really matters.

Ddavidson

[roma94]

Well said Ddavidson.
I think that I may have to pass on the MK3 afterall with turbo, I called HSU a few minutes ago and shipping, taxes and exchange put me at over $1300 dollars to my door in Canada. Unfortunatley the email I recieved last week from HSU sales had given me the incorrect amount to ship.
At that price it puts me directly in the SVS Ultra price range with the SVS distibutor in Canada here up the road from me in Ontario. It's a shame because we were ready to order 2 of the VTF3's.

[GrantK]

Originally Posted by roma94

Well said Ddavidson.
I think that I may have to pass on the MK3 afterall with turbo, I called HSU a few minutes ago and shipping, taxes and exchange put me at over $1300 dollars to my door in Canada. Unfortunatley the email I recieved last week from HSU sales had given me the incorrect amount to ship.
At that price it puts me directly in the SVS Ultra price range with the SVS distibutor in Canada here up the road from me in Ontario. It's a shame because we were ready to order 2 of the VTF3's.

I received an email from the sales staff at HSU, and I was quoted $749US for the 2 products, and $281US for shipping/GST/PST/Duties. With an exchange rate of about 1.15, that would make the VTF3-MK3 w/turbo $1184CAN. I live in Thornhill. Not exactly sure where you live roma94, so shipping may be a little higher if you don't leave near Toronto.

Grant

[Ddavidson]

Originally Posted by roma94

Well said Ddavidson.
I think that I may have to pass on the MK3 afterall with turbo, I called HSU a few minutes ago and shipping, taxes and exchange put me at over $1300 dollars to my door in Canada. Unfortunatley the email I recieved last week from HSU sales had given me the incorrect amount to ship.
At that price it puts me directly in the SVS Ultra price range with the SVS distibutor in Canada here up the road from me in Ontario. It's a shame because we were ready to order 2 of the VTF3's.

I have had a PB12-Ultra in my system and it is certainly a better sub than the PC Plus however its tightness, tonality and midbass punch is not up to the Mk3.

Once again its the one negative in being a direct market product as most people will never get the chance to hear for themselves the difference ..... so they can make up their "own minds".

Hsu also have a Canadian distributor however I am not sure when they are getting the Mk3 models.
Canada: Rocelco
1-800-387-9101
http://www.hi-fidelity.com/

http://www.hsuresearch.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2386

Dddavidson

[roma94]

Originally Posted by GrantK

I received an email from the sales staff at HSU, and I was quoted $749US for the 2 products, and $281US for shipping/GST/PST/Duties. With an exchange rate of about 1.15, that would make the VTF3-MK3 w/turbo $1184CAN. I live in Thornhill. Not exactly sure where you live roma94, so shipping may be a little higher if you don't leave near Toronto.

Grant

I received the same quote price by email last week but upon calling today to verify I was told by an HSU representative (not sure of her name) that the shipping quote was off by over $100 dollars. I'm in London. I will call the Canadian distributor and find out if and when they will have the VTF3.

[roma94]

Thanks Ddavidson Canada: Rocelco
1-800-387-9101
http://www.hi-fidelity.com/

Called the distributor in Canada this morning: Rocelco, said they probably won't be getting the new VTF3 MK3.

[Ddavidson]

Rocelco, said they probably won't be getting the new VTF3 MK3.

Strange did they say why?

Ddavidson

[roma94]

Originally Posted by Ddavidson

Strange did they say why?

Ddavidson

No he didn't really say why other than just probably not. He also said that if I wanted one I should contact Electronics for Less, in Toronto, but they are no longer going to carry HSU products after this month as they are the new distributor for SVS.

[roma94]

Originally Posted by GrantK

I received an email from the sales staff at HSU, and I was quoted $749US for the 2 products, and $281US for shipping/GST/PST/Duties. With an exchange rate of about 1.15, that would make the VTF3-MK3 w/turbo $1184CAN. I live in Thornhill. Not exactly sure where you live roma94, so shipping may be a little higher if you don't leave near Toronto.

Grant

Grant did you call HSU to verify the shipping price? I can't see there being much difference in price from being a few hours south of Thornhill, my quote was exactly as yours,and was based on postal code($281US shipping/GST/PST/Duties)

[GrantK]

Originally Posted by roma94

No he didn't really say why other than just probably not. He also said that if I wanted one I should contact Electronics for Less, in Toronto, but they are no longer going to carry HSU products after this month as they are the new distributor for SVS.

I talked to someone at Electronics For Less and they have indicated that there were having problems getting stock from their distributor. I asked a while back about the Turbocharger and to my knowledge, have never gotten one in as the distributor has been unable to ge them into Canada (not sure if they just didn't want to be bothered with getting them in, or whether there were customs/shipping issues that prevented the Turbochargers from coming into Canada). The salesperson at EFL said that they seem to be selling more SVS subwoofers than the HSU's (maybe due to availability?).

The only place that I know of that sells HSU in the GTA is American Sound of Canada (http://www.americansound.com). They have some of the STF models in their demo room. I inquired about the VTF3-MK3 and they told me that it depends upon whether the distributor can get them in.

Well, roma94, I'm not a lawyer so I can't say whether they are legally bound to give you the sub at the shipping cost quoted to you, but I would think that if you were given a quote as to the shipping cost, and it is the same quote that others (including myself) have been given, they should honour it. The price quoted certainly was not a one time mistake if at least 2 of us got the same quote.

[roma94]

Originally Posted by GrantK

I talked to someone at Electronics For Less and they have indicated that there were having problems getting stock from their distributor. I asked a while back about the Turbocharger and to my knowledge, have never gotten one in as the distributor has been unable to ge them into Canada (not sure if they just didn't want to be bothered with getting them in, or whether there were customs/shipping issues that prevented the Turbochargers from coming into Canada). The salesperson at EFL said that they seem to be selling more SVS subwoofers than the HSU's (maybe due to availability?).

The only place that I know of that sells HSU in the GTA is American Sound of Canada (http://www.americansound.com). They have some of the STF models in their demo room. I inquired about the VTF3-MK3 and they told me that it depends upon whether the distributor can get them in.

Well, roma94, I'm not a lawyer so I can't say whether they are legally bound to give you the sub at the shipping cost quoted to you, but I would think that if you were given a quote as to the shipping cost, and it is the same quote that others (including myself) have been given, they should honour it. The price quoted certainly was not a one time mistake if at least 2 of us got the same quote.

I agree, they should honour the original email quote but the reality is they probably wont!
I even tried to purchase online and it keeps saying the shipping method for my area is not available (there's only one option) FedEx ground, I can't even get to the payment section as it wont let me past the first screen! That alone forces you to call like I did and that's when they hit me with the correct, shipping costs.

As good as VTF3-MK3 may be , I am going to put this on hold, and going to look into the Ultra. It's almost the same money after all other expenses, great driver, great amp with 525watts of power and I'm sure it will sound great, besides SVS will give me a discount since I will be purchasing 2 of them, something that HSU said they could not offer me.

[Pete_Hsu]

I wouldn't pay too much attention to 525w rated power vs the 350w rated power on the VTF-3 Mk3. With turbocharger, in 16Hz mode, the VTF-3 Mk3 is able to move twice as much (2x) low turbulent air in comparison to the Ultra. In other words, it would take TWO Ultras to match the low turbulent air moving capability of a single VTF-3 Mk3/t in the deep bass.

A professional review is coming up where the reviewer was able to achieve a clean 112db at 20Hz from the VTF-3 Mk3 w/ turbocharger, and 109db at 20Hz without turbocharger. This compares to 106db at 20Hz for his Ultra sub, and 106db at 20Hz for the TN1220HO. To get another 6db, you would need another Ultra, at nearly double the price of a single unit even with a discount on dual units.

The VTF-3 Mk3 also has better mid-bass headroom in comparison too, due in part to the lighter cone woofer with higher mid/upper bass efficiency. Even with taxes/shipping, it is a great value in comparison.

Regarding the shipping quotes, I will look into it and try to get more clarification. Apologies for the confusion.

Sincerely,

[dferrey]

Thanks Peter, as a TN1220 owner, that 20Hz info is very interesting. A couple of questions...

1. Do you know when the review will be available?
2. Do you know how the Mk3 stacks up against the TN1220 at other frequencies?

[roma94]

Originally Posted by Peter Marcks

I wouldn't pay too much attention to 525w rated power vs the 350w rated power on the VTF-3 Mk3. With turbocharger, in 16Hz mode, the VTF-3 Mk3 is able to move twice as much (2x) low turbulent air in comparison to the Ultra. In other words, it would take TWO Ultras to match the low turbulent air moving capability of a single VTF-3 Mk3/t in the deep bass.

A professional review is coming up where the reviewer was able to achieve a clean 112db at 20Hz from the VTF-3 Mk3 w/ turbocharger, and 109db at 20Hz without turbocharger. This compares to 106db at 20Hz for his Ultra sub, and 106db at 20Hz for the TN1220HO. To get another 6db, you would need another Ultra, at nearly double the price of a single unit even with a discount on dual units.

The VTF-3 Mk3 also has better mid-bass headroom in comparison too, due in part to the lighter cone woofer with higher mid/upper bass efficiency. Even with taxes/shipping, it is a great value in comparison.

Regarding the shipping quotes, I will look into it and try to get more clarification. Apologies for the confusion.

Sincerely,

Thanks Peter for looking into the shipping quotes.

So then that means that one VTF3 MK3 without turbo not only outperforms or equals my PC Plus in SPL and depth, but should match or better the Ultra in depth and Spl as well. The turbo would move 2x the mount of air (2 Ultras).
Would the non turbo give me as strong 15-16hz as my Plus 16 hz mode (two 3 inch ports open as apposed to one 4 inch port), or would port noise be more significant with the the one 4 inch port on the VTF3?

[Pete_Hsu]

Good morning dferrey,

I don't know exactly when the review will be published, but hopefully early next year?

Comparing Mk3 to TN1220HO at other frequencies would depend on what tuning mode is used on the Mk3, in addition to what driver is used on the TN1220HO. At a minimum, I would expect the Mk3 in maximum output mode to exceed the TN1220HO at all frequencies above 20Hz. In extended bass mode things would be closer, but it also depends on which driver is used on the TN1220HO, since the current 12" Mk3 driver is noticeably improved over some of the older 12" woofers.

[Pete_Hsu]

Originally Posted by roma94

Thanks Peter for looking into the shipping quotes.

So then that means that one VTF3 MK3 without turbo not only outperforms or equals my PC Plus in SPL and depth, but should match or better the Ultra in depth and Spl as well. The turbo would move 2x the mount of air (2 Ultras).
Would the non turbo give me as strong 15-16hz as my Plus 16 hz mode (two 3 inch ports open as apposed to one 4 inch port), or would port noise be more significant with the the one 4 inch port on the VTF3?

My pleasure Roma. Yes, I feel that the VTF-3 Mk3 would compare very favorably, it is a great product at a great value! In extended bass mode with one port plugged, it should offer comparable deep bass performance without having higher port noise than dual 3" ports, since a 4" port with huge flare is about equivalent in port flow capability to dual flared 3" ports.

[dferrey]

Originally Posted by Peter Marcks

Good morning dferrey,

I don't know exactly when the review will be published, but hopefully early next year?

Comparing Mk3 to TN1220HO at other frequencies would depend on what tuning mode is used on the Mk3, in addition to what driver is used on the TN1220HO. At a minimum, I would expect the Mk3 in maximum output mode to exceed the TN1220HO at all frequencies above 20Hz. In extended bass mode things would be closer, but it also depends on which driver is used on the TN1220HO, since the current 12" Mk3 driver is noticeably improved over some of the older 12" woofers.

Thanks again Peter. My TN1220 is from 1999, if that helps.

[Pete_Hsu]

Please allow me to also provide an update on the shipping quotes to Canada.

Previously we were just charging people for freight to Canada, which for the large VTF-3 Mk3 + turbocharger was something like the $281 (US Dollars, naturally subject to change depending on certain variables) that you guys had mentioned earlier. That seems reasonable just for freight, since it is just a bit more than double what it costs to ship in the USA.

When these customers refused to pay costs for duties and customs clearing, FedEx charged us for those. So now we quote a total that includes all of these other charges including shipping/customs/duties/GST, etc.

I hope this clears things up a bit! If you guys have any suggestions on different approaches that we can take to maximize value when shipping to Canada, I would be very glad to hear more about it.

Sincerely,

[Pete_Hsu]

Originally Posted by dferrey

Thanks again Peter. My TN1220 is from 1999, if that helps.

Still a great subwoofer after all these years! The VTF-3 Mk3 should be a big improvement though!

[roma94]

Originally Posted by Peter Marcks

Please allow me to also provide an update on the shipping quotes to Canada.

Previously we were just charging people for freight to Canada, which for the large VTF-3 Mk3 + turbocharger was something like the $281 (US Dollars, naturally subject to change depending on certain variables) that you guys had mentioned earlier. That seems reasonable just for freight, since it is just a bit more than double what it costs to ship in the USA.

When these customers refused to pay costs for duties and customs clearing, FedEx charged us for those. So now we quote a total that includes all of these other charges including shipping/customs/duties/GST, etc.

I hope this clears things up a bit! If you guys have any suggestions on different approaches that we can take to maximize value when shipping to Canada, I would be very glad to hear more about it.

Sincerely,

Thanks Peter.

Why is there duty, I didn't pay duty on my SVS because it is made in the US, are the HSU products not made in America, and if not, where are they made?

[Pete_Hsu]

Roma, technically the SVS use parts that are made in China, Canada, USA, etc and are assembled in USA. Ours are designed in the USA and manufactured in China.