Which cables should I use?

[cschang]

What cables do you guys recommend using to hook up your subwoofers to A/V Receivers?

[Sasha_G]

I'll answer your question and give some more information for those who have related questions.

We think there are some misconceptions in the world of cables, but every customer is entitled to their opinion.

In general, connectors with spring tension at the ends are often superior in reliability. Gold connectors reduce long term corrosion compared to some other materials.

=============
Interconnects:
=============


HSU Research sells studio quality interconnects at reasonable prices. Check our products listings.

You need shielded interconnect. Just about all interconnects are shielded. If you need to run very long runs and are handy with a soldering iron, coaxial cable, the kind found running cable television signals, is a good choice. A more flexible cable that looks like it can bend more is found at Part's Express:

http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/pshow...=100-290&DID=7

You solder the connecors on the ends of the interconnect. The connectors can be found at Parts Express and Radio Shack. I personally like connectors that have a very springy outer ring, like this:
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/pshow...er=091-1265%20
But all you really need is a normal connector like this, since it also has some spring action and good tension:
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/pshow...ber=091-052%20

============
Speaker Wire:
============

The thickness of the wire should depend on how long the run is.

Under 10 feet, 16 AWG or more
10-25 feet, 14 AWG or more
25-50 feet 12 AWG or more

We like banana plugs as a way of connecting the wire to the speaker, since they are easy to use and provide spring tension, which increases reliability. Some other connectors might come loose over time.

These are using the American or Brown & Sharp (A.W.G.) standard. For more information on gague standards, see:

http://www.archers.org/gauge.htm
http://www.archers.org/stdgauge.htm

[hollang]

I think the links at the bottom of your post about gauge info have changed. Try this:
http://www.archers.org/default.asp?s...mor&page=gauge

As the following links are now broken:

These are using the American or Brown & Sharp (A.W.G.) standard. For more information on gague standards, see:

http://www.archers.org/gauge.htm
http://www.archers.org/stdgauge.htm[/quote]

[Skidmarks]

I recently purchased a STF-2, and have it connected with one cable to the to the mono port, and back to my receivers sub pre out. What benefit would I have in connecting it to the alternate L/R ports ?

[tgrisham]

I really like the way Hsu and Sasha approach high fidelity. It really is simple physics. Electrons will do what they do if you just leave them alone (shielding). No expensive cryotherapy or exotic twisting, just simply good materials and good shielding. A recent article from an online audio journal dissected an extremely expensive video cable and found something inferior to cheap Radio Shack cable. Thanks to people like Dr. Hsu and Sasha, there is some sensibility to this hobby. Thanks from a very satisfied customer.

[spiffnme]

I have my sub cable running over 25' in-wall. I got the length from Blue Jeans Cables. It didn't cost much at all, and was perfect for the job. My VTF-2 sounds GREAT and I don't have a huge lenght of cable running all over my living room!

[Lwang]

How can you run that whole length behind the walls unless you are in a trailer? And if that is the case, then it is actually running outside the outside wall.

[tedmjr2]

Originally Posted by Lwang

How can you run that whole length behind the walls unless you are in a trailer? And if that is the case, then it is actually running outside the outside wall.

Remember, many homes are built using drywall (sheetrock) so we can run our speaker/network wires hidden at great lengths.

[spiffnme]

Originally Posted by Lwang

How can you run that whole length behind the walls unless you are in a trailer? And if that is the case, then it is actually running outside the outside wall.

It actually runs up the wall, into the ceiling, across my room, back down through the ceiling into a storage closet behind my system. It turned out great.

[Lwang]

Remember, many homes are built using drywall (sheetrock) so we can run our speaker/network wires hidden at great lengths.

There would be studs every 16" or so, wouldn't there?

[spiffnme]

That's why I went up the wall and then across the ceiling.
But yes, there are studs every 16".

[DNelms]

I know there are also companies on the web who sell wire channels but while on a trek to Home Depot the other day I noticed they have wire channels designed to replace the base boards of your walls. There are also ports for the wires to enter and exit these channels. They are paintable and seem to be very similar to those offered on the net.

Just food for thought.

Dave

[jbotz]

Here is a great article about speaker wire. The upshot is that the only thing that matters is impedance of the wire relative to the impedance of the system (should be less than 5%) and you can use cheap line chord so long as it's thick enough for the length of the run. For 8 ohm speakers decent 16 gauge wire should be good for up to 50 feet according to his table.

:j

[Retread]

Originally Posted by jbotz

Here is a great article about speaker wire. The upshot is that the only thing that matters is impedance of the wire relative to the impedance of the system (should be less than 5%) and you can use cheap line chord so long as it's thick enough for the length of the run. For 8 ohm speakers decent 16 gauge wire should be good for up to 50 feet according to his table.

:j

Just to be picky, it's resistance that matters at these frequencies. Impedance is the complex (i.e., using "imaginary" numbers) combination of resistance, capacitive reactance, and inductive reactance. Both capacitive and inductive reactance are negligible at these frequencies, leaving resistance as the only significant factor.

[95 Silver TA]

Can someone take a look at this link and let me know if this is true about the Y Adaptors for subs or not.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...hreadid=505891

If I am breaking any rules about posting info from another forum here please delete my thread and I apologize. But would still love some kinda detailed answer. I wanted to see what the experts think or have to say.

Thx,
Claude

[Barney1]

Originally Posted by Sasha_G

Just about all interconnects are shielded. If you need to run very long runs and are handy with a soldering iron, coaxial cable, the kind found running cable television signals, is a good choice. A more flexible cable that looks like it can bend more is found at Part's Express:

http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/pshow...=100-290&DID=7

You solder the connecors on the ends of the interconnect. The connectors can be found at Parts Express and Radio Shack. I personally like connectors that have a very springy outer ring, like this:
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/pshow...er=091-1265%20
But all you really need is a normal connector like this, since it also has some spring action and good tension:
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/pshow...ber=091-052%20

Sasha, if I were to use coaxial and the spring action connector you listed how exactly would I solder the single coaxial wire to the connector? I like this idea, just want to make sure I do it right.

[Retread]

Originally Posted by Barney1

Sasha, if I were to use coaxial and the spring action connector you listed how exactly would I solder the single coaxial wire to the connector? I like this idea, just want to make sure I do it right.

One wire is the center conductor, and the other wire is the shield. Some shields are foil with a drain wire, and some shields are braid.

In any case, you have to connect both "wires." You have to be able to get at the metal connection parts of the RCA, so the rear has to come off to expose the connection parts. There are generally two; one is an extension of the male part of the connector, and the other is an extension of the ring. One solders the center conductor of the coax to the male part and the shield to the ring part. Then reseat the boot (having slipped it over the cable before soldering -- something I always forget to do, resulting in my having to use cutters and start over). If you use braided coax, be sure to twist the braid so stray strands don't get loose.

[DNelms]

I just changed from Monster's top of the line sub cable to the AudioQuest and I a can clearly tell the difference.

I have the long cable that I bought at Magnolia Audio here in So. Calif. The two meter length is $60, but you may be able to find it on-line for less.

Anyway, I can hear the difference. Just another option if someone happens to be looking.

[Retread]

Originally Posted by DNelms

I just changed from Monster's top of the line sub cable to the AudioQuest and I a can clearly tell the difference.

I would appreciate it if you could post the mechanism by which a change in sub cable could make a difference in sonic performance detectable by ear.

[DNelms]

Originally Posted by Retread

I would appreciate it if you could post the mechanism by which a change in sub cable could make a difference in sonic performance detectable by ear.

Easy,

I hook it up. Listen for a while to familiar music. If it sounds better, I keep it.

Perhaps there was a problem with the old monster and it was causing some problems.

Dave

[Retread]

Originally Posted by DNelms

Easy,

I hook it up. Listen for a while to familiar music. If it sounds better, I keep it.

Perhaps there was a problem with the old monster and it was causing some problems.

Dave

Could have been a problem with the cable.

Think about the nature of a sub connection. The input to the sub is high impedance, so resistance in the copper can't be a problem. The sub operates in the 100 Hz and below range, so characteristic impedance of the cable cannot be an issue. Likewise, frequency response of the cable cannot be an issue. Phase response cannot be a issue. From a basic science/engineering perspective, I know of no mechanism by which a sub cable can affect sonic performance, unless the cable itself is broken in some way. Except for hum, of course.

[DNelms]

Originally Posted by Retread

Could have been a problem with the cable.

I know of no mechanism by which a sub cable can affect sonic performance, unless the cable itself is broken in some way. Except for hum, of course.

Perhaps that was the problem. But I am very happy with the subs performance now. And even though I am not rich, $60 was not too much to spend on a IMHO high quality cable.

Dave

[Hans Gruber]

If you are strapped for cash or perhaps you don't trust those beautiful high end audio interconnects, I suggest you strip your nearest lamp of its cord with a Swiss army knife. If you cannot find lamp cord with sufficient length, round of the troops for a trip to Home Depot or Lowes. You can get lamp cord for .10 cents a foot that at least 10 gauge in thickness. Some may consider this half-ass, me included but I hear that Dr. Hsu uses a $100 receiver to listen to his fabulous Subwoofers.

If you're like me, Acoustic Research has a fine 25ft subwoofer cable for $30. This is what I have used for many years. Perhaps those individuals who spend $100 on a subwoofer cable would be better suited putting that money into better audio equipment or quality DVD's. It's only copper plated with a minute dusting of gold for conductivity.

[tdekany]

Originally Posted by Hans Gruber

If you are strapped for cash or perhaps you don't trust those beautiful high end audio interconnects, I suggest you strip your nearest lamp of its cord with a Swiss army knife. If you cannot find lamp cord with sufficient length, round of the troops for a trip to Home Depot or Lowes. You can get lamp cord for .10 cents a foot that at least 10 gauge in thickness. Some may consider this half-ass, me included but I hear that Dr. Hsu uses a $100 receiver to listen to his fabulous Subwoofers.

If you're like me, Acoustic Research has a fine 25ft subwoofer cable for $30. This is what I have used for many years. Perhaps those individuals who spend $100 on a subwoofer cable would be better suited putting that money into better audio equipment or quality DVD's. It's only copper plated with a minute dusting of gold for conductivity.

Hsu sells a very fine sub cable for verylittle $$$ as well

[caseyh]

I don't think you can go wrong with the cables HSU sells. However, if you want some more options, check out Blue Jeans Cable and Impact Acoustics. They both sell quality cables at reasonable prices with no gimmicks. If you want to read more about cables and interconnects, check out audioholics.com. They have written some great articles discussing the truths and myths of wires, often with scientific analysis far more thorough than I can understand, but it's nice to see that the data is there.

[John Firestone]

Originally Posted by caseyh

I don't think you can go wrong with the cables HSU sells. However, if you want some more options, check out Blue Jeans Cable and Impact Acoustics. They both sell quality cables at reasonable prices with no gimmicks.

I was impressed by how Blue Jeans Cable describes and sells their speaker cable -- thanks for the link! Impact Acoustics is going on my black list for flogging "oxygen-free copper". I believe that was mostly recently a concern in the early days of the telegraph when people were learning how to make a conductive wire that didn't stretch and break.

[rws51]

I have to agree with DNELMS. Cables do make a difference. People like Retread are always there blowing tech smoke at anything they can't explain on paper.

I use Analysis Plus sub cable and it makes a difference. I use $100 Venom powercords from Shunyata and the difference is undeniable.

Keep using your ears and you will be very happy with your HSU and your listening hobby.

Strange how the Luddites in this equation are the people who bury their heads in the sands of "show me the physics" and are scared to just listen.

Originally Posted by John Firestone

I was impressed by how Blue Jeans Cable describes and sells their speaker cable -- thanks for the link! Impact Acoustics is going on my black list for flogging "oxygen-free copper". I believe that was mostly recently a concern in the early days of the telegraph when people were learning how to make a conductive wire that didn't stretch and break.

[John Firestone]

Originally Posted by rws51

Strange how the Luddites in this equation are the people who bury their heads in the sands of "show me the physics" and are scared to just listen.

Dude, I can't be a Luddite because I believe in using technology to improve things, including subwoofers. I certainly don't go around smashing machines in the vain hope of returning to a simpler age.

If you find happiness in oxygen-free copper and $100 power cords, I am all for it. I have to spend my money carefully and can't afford the enormous markup on cable that is more than 99.95% pure.

[John Firestone]

I wrote a little too hastily. I pulled up the manufacturer's datasheet on the last speaker cable I bought which claims to use 99.9999% pure, oxygen free coppper. I bought the stuff because it is finely stranded and flexible. It didn't cost much more than more coarsely stranded 2.5mm^2 cable and allows me to spot-weld my connections, I suppose, if I need to.

[Backlash]

I personally use QSRG6 cable with gold RCA terminations. Plenum rated for running through the walls, and you can make them whatever length you want.

[HighEndSkeptic]

Want some good, inexpensive speaker wire that has fooled quite a few "golden-eared" listeners? Get plain house wiring. The solid wire has less resistence per foot at any given AWG, and if treated with care it eliminates some of the drawbacks of stranded cable. Because each strand is only semi-joined to surrounding strands, lots of little spots of reactance can form. How audible this really is, I don't know, but if I had a choice between zip cord and solid, I'd pick the latter.

For line level cables, the RCA-coax-RCA cord shouldn't be very long. Your results may vary, but unbalanced lines such as the consumer RCA plug stuff can pick up unwanted interference. That's because only one conductor is shielded. The other is the shield, and that can pick up any EMI nearby. The better solution for long runs is to use balanced lines, where both conductors are shielded. This is common in pro audio, and IMHO is worth the extra expense.

[dirtraven]

Originally Posted by HighEndSkeptic

Want some good, inexpensive speaker wire that has fooled quite a few "golden-eared" listeners? Get plain house wiring. The solid wire has less resistence per foot at any given AWG, and if treated with care it eliminates some of the drawbacks of stranded cable. Because each strand is only semi-joined to surrounding strands, lots of little spots of reactance can form. How audible this really is, I don't know, but if I had a choice between zip cord and solid, I'd pick the latter.

For line level cables, the RCA-coax-RCA cord shouldn't be very long. Your results may vary, but unbalanced lines such as the consumer RCA plug stuff can pick up unwanted interference. That's because only one conductor is shielded. The other is the shield, and that can pick up any EMI nearby. The better solution for long runs is to use balanced lines, where both conductors are shielded. This is common in pro audio, and IMHO is worth the extra expense.

I tried 12ga solid copper wire as a speaker jumper (just to see what difference it would be over the jumper plates) and from my experience they muffled my highs and made my low end boomy. Just my dorky experiment.

[franktren]

Gentlemen: For the best protection against hum, RFI and EMI, use interconnects made from TWO conductor, shielded cable. This means the shield IS NOT conductng any signal. The two internal conductors are connected at BOTH ends to the RCA connectors. The shield is connected ONLY AT ONE END, along with one inner conductor, to the shell (ground) of the RCA plug. This end should be identified, so it can be plugged into the jack of the SOURCE. All interconnects are used this way in my system, which is completely noiseless at full volume (obviously with no input). All interconnects have the shield gnd end plugged into the SOURCE. This not only shields the two inner conductors, but also prevents ground loops through the shields.
As for speaker wiring, I use pretty ordinary 10 gauge wire with banana plugs. My runs are short, about 6-9 feet. The stereo speakers (Vandersteen) are biwired, and the sub is a Hsu TN1220HO. I have just made up the same type of interconnects for my YAMAHA/Denon/VT-12s, but don't have them up and running yet.
franktren

[AdilM]

That's exactly how Monster does it. That's why they have those arrows. (runs and hides from the fallout)

[FerrisJackson]

I don't see where anyone responded to this question. I'd also like to know what the benefits are.

Originally Posted by Skidmarks

I recently purchased a STF-2, and have it connected with one cable to the to the mono port, and back to my receivers sub pre out. What benefit would I have in connecting it to the alternate L/R ports ?

[Kerbango]

Originally Posted by dirtraven

I tried 12ga solid copper wire as a speaker jumper (just to see what difference it would be over the jumper plates) and from my experience they muffled my highs and made my low end boomy. Just my dorky experiment.

Electrons actually flow around the wire, not through it. So the more strands the better the flow!

[JimP]

I had found some flat speaker wire to use between the berber carpet and the carpet pad to wire my side surrounds.

Is there something similar for sub cables. I'm actually going to use this on a MBM-12, if that matters.

[Stan]

Originally Posted by rws51

I have to agree with DNELMS. Cables do make a difference. People like Retread are always there blowing tech smoke at anything they can't explain on paper. I use Analysis Plus sub cable and it makes a difference. I use $100 Venom powercords from Shunyata and the difference is undeniable. Keep using your ears and you will be very happy with your HSU and your listening hobby. Strange how the Luddites in this equation are the people who bury their heads in the sands of "show me the physics" and are scared to just listen.

You might be overlooking the very significant impact of human factors in such a comparison. Our expectations, preferences, biases, etc greatly affect matters. These variables can be eliminated via controlled listening tests such that only the cable changes. That way ONLY the sound related to each cable is compared. In such tests, when simple tech hurdles are accomplished, noone has been able to distinguish amongst normal and fancy cables. Usually these controlled, scientific tests involve level matched, double blind features and some statistics. If one chooses to compare sound without such controls, it is impossible to say that the sound vibrations in the air changed as opposed to the perception of the sound. That perception being affected by human factors.

On power cords...remember that the electrical power came quite a distance. Through miles or normal wire. Through transformers and coils. And then it winds up in side your component. Power cord swaps don't seem to change the acoustic sound at all. However the perceived sound in your consciousness may change. Due to various human factors such as preferences, biases, comfort, etc.

Stan (sjmarcy at a o l dot c om)

[thedudeabides]

I have used all sorts of speaker cables and interconnects, from stock cables directly from the device's box, to MonsterCables, Acoustic Research, Dayton (PartsExpress), Generic GE/ Samsung/ etc., BlueJeans, AudioQuest, and HomeDepot.

While there is certainly a difference between stock cables and most others, I found the difference from there to be marginal. To date, my choice is BlueJeans cable for speaker wire (it's quite heavy-duty), and Dayton (PartsExpress) for interconnects. Dayton's products are nice and solid, while extraordinarily cheap and available in a multitude of lengths.

Many people swear by certain brands, Nordost, Tributaries, BetterCables, etc., but I have yet to find a substantial difference. My advice is to spend money on speakers, subs, transports, and displays, and shoot for 10-20%(tops) of total cost for speaker cable and interconnects, and you should be safe!

Cheers--

TDA

[Macfan424]

I agree with Stan. We hear what we expect to hear.

I, too, have tried many different cables, including most of the ones listed by thedudeabides as well as many others, and have found no difference in sound quality. However, I prefer upgraded cables because they make me feel better. I like the way they look and their tactile quality. Kind of like jewelry for my equipment, I suppose.

thedudeabides recommendation of Dayton Audio cables is a good one, although I tend to pick up Monster or AR cables (and other comparable ones) when I find a good sale. They sometimes can be found for significantly less than even the Daytons. I generally buy them before I need them, because sooner or later I know I will .

(I just gave my STF-1 a Monster Cable MonsterBass 400 gift, but it only cost $9.00. )

[dafeist]

http://www.accessories4less.com/cgi-bin/item/MCI2018M

Ordered mine, cost $24 with shipping to WA State. Got it in 3 days. Comes with a Monster Y connector to hook up the sub in both L and R (dont know if that even does anything, but its free). The cable is thick and pliable. The connectors are tight but not so much as to damage the sites. Im no fan of Monster per say, but for this little cash, its tough to go wrong.

[twu]

Hi folks, I'm new to this and apologize for the newbie question. I'm planning to get the STF-1 for my 5.1 HT room, which came pre-wired with regular 14 AWG speaker cables when I got the house. Can I use the existing speaker cables to go from the receiver to the sub? Any input is appreciated. Thanks.

[dafeist]

Not sure I follow you on that. Your room is pre-wired for 5.1, so there should be something like speaker plates in the wall at the locations of your speakers and receiver, correct? So Im not following your meaning of existing wire going from receiver to sub. The best way to connect your sub is with a single cable running from your subwoofer pre-out on your receiver directly to the subwoofer's L or R low input.

[Stan]

Originally Posted by twu

Hi folks, I'm new to this and apologize for the newbie question. I'm planning to get the STF-1 for my 5.1 HT room, which came pre-wired with regular 14 AWG speaker cables when I got the house. Can I use the existing speaker cables to go from the receiver to the sub? Any input is appreciated. Thanks.

I'd just use the speaker cable in the walls for nonpowered speakers. And just run a single, thin, easily hidden interconnect out to the sub. Since interconnects are shielded cables with the proper ends to plug into your equipment. To use the wall wiring you'd have to adapt it's ends to RCA connectors, give up the shields, etc. http://www.monoprice.com/products/su...d=10236&style= has good stuff dirt cheap.

[twu]

Thanks guys. So I guess I can go either way sounds like. I wasn't sure if I can use regular speaker cables or not for the sub. I like to keep it clean and free of exposed wires so I think I'll just put RCA connectors at the ends.

Also, my room size is 9x20x9, will the STF-1 work ok? I'll be using it for both music and movies.

[wid]

I wouldn't try to use the speaker wire for the sub connection if you are using the sub out from the receiver. Could you use the speaker wire to pull a sub cable though the wall?

The STF 1 would work but it seems a tad small for that size room.

[dafeist]

TWU, based on what I am getting from your posts, you cannot run your sub on the pre-wiring in your house. Those wires were put there for non-powered speakers (your front L and R, your Center, and your rear L and R assuming a 5.1 system). Your receiver will connect with the wires in your wall and then will connect with your speakers. However, your subwoofer will need to connect by a completely different means. Read my earlier post. You will need a single cable with rca terminals on each end, commonly referred to as a subwoofer cable. You will hear all kinds of stuff about how they are overpriced and you can use simple coax, etc. Given your understanding at this point, my advice is to go the easiest route and spend $10-$20 on a cable and be done with it.

[twu]

wid, I suppose I can try to use the speaker wire to pull the sub cable. I have a feeling it will be difficult because the terminal for the receiver and the sub are on opposite walls.

dafeist, I'll use the sub cable as suggested. I don't want to taking any risks. Thanks again for your advice.

[dafeist]

No problem. Whenever possible, you should use a single cable for your sub running from the lfe preout directly to the sub. using copper speaker wire can work but is not the ideal.

[delt31]

I'm looking to get some 14awg wiring. what kind should I buy?

[bsoko]

Try Home Depot or Lowes for wire. They have the best deal on 14 or 16 ga.

[delt31]

Originally Posted by bsoko

Try Home Depot or Lowes for wire. They have the best deal on 14 or 16 ga.

thank you buyt i was looking to buy some online. which cable is the best to get 14(awg) / 16 online? i know that "brand" names don't really mean anything but anyone with experience let me know what kind I should get.

[Kd5jha]

I just wanted to say, that i agree with the majority of posts on this thread that given adequate wire guage you should not be able to hear any audable difference between the "high end" wire mentioned and standard 12 or 10 guage low voltage dc wiring. My safety comment has to do with using romex or similar to run speaker signals. Please, for your safety, and that of your speakers... use a different color romex than the existing wire in your house... or if you want shielding run tray cable within BX flexible conduit. I am trying to imagine what might happen if 120v got hooked up to a speaker, or if a future owner of the house was trying to figure out what was going on with the A/V wiring and got into a live AC circuit by accident. Just seems like a good practice to me... I have been buying stranded 12 and 10 gauge speaker cable for years that has either 4 or 8 12ga conductors in one flexible jacket in order to run signal to my surrounds at the back of the room (I get it from Clark Wire and Cable) It is nothing more than a giant extension cord like 3/4" thick but they can get other types for cheap. heck, you can get 10/4 SOOJ (Extension Cord) at Lowe's in my town for $2 foot if you want real heavy gauge cables! (BTW that is heaver gauge than what is used in most pro setups in arenas and such!) --Matt