Finally - the REAL VTF-3 HO is here !

[craigsub]

Greetings to the Hsu Forum... Friday, after returning from a biz trip, I find 4 boxes on the front porch - the new amps and drivers have arrived.

This morning, I am listening/watching War of the Worlds with a single VTF-3 HO in our 4500 ^3 foot theater room.

While this is pretty early in the process, this subwoofer is absolutely KICKING BUTT !!

The lightning scene, pods emerge scene, and laser scene all were done with amazingly good results. The room was shaking with deep, tight bass, and rivaled the results we got from the Maestro and DD-18.

This subwoofer is a FAR cry from the original HO amp/driver delivered.

Here are some graphs of the WOTW scenes ...

1. Lightning storm:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...ulgtnotrbo.jpg

2. Pods emerge:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...podsnotrbo.jpg

3. Laser scene:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...asernotrbo.jpg

For reference, here is the Velodyne DD-18 on the pods emerge scene:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1.../velowotw2.jpg

[Pete_Hsu]

That's so great to hear, Craig, I really appreciate that you are posting impressions of the unit!

It would be very interesting to get your opinion on maximum output (22Hz), vs extended bass (16Hz w/ port plug) vs extended bass (16Hz w/ turbo) modes too when you have a chance sometime during the year. I imagine that there will be some give and take depending on the demo material.

Thanks again!

Sincerely,

[craigsub]

Peter - This was in the 22 Hz mode. Even here, this subwoofer is deep and tactile in its response and output. What is most impressive is its ability to "hit you in the chest" during the laser scene in WOTW. This suggests a very linear response curve, much like the high end sealed subs we have here.

It is very much like having a brand new subwoofer, in comparison to the original we had.

I also have the same scenes charted for the SVS PB12-Plus/2, if anyone wishes to see them.

Both subs are now being run with an 80 Hz crossover..

[JonnyOzero3]

Originally Posted by craigsub

I also have the same scenes charted for the SVS PB12-Plus/2, if anyone wishes to see them.

If anyone wishes to see them? Sheesh craig, do you even have to ask?

Thanks for posting your impressions by the way, it's great to hear that the update appears to be a serious improvement.

[lradden]

You bet your buns we want to see them. If the HO is now rivaling the Maestro and DD-18 it sounds like the HO is besting the SVS Ultra you compaed it too a few months ago.

[craigsub]

Ok ... These are the Results for the PB12-Plus/2 that I got two weeks ago. This is not the Ultra.

The lightning scene:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...svslgt20hz.jpg

The Pods emerge scene:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...vspods20hz.jpg

The Laser Scene:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...svslsr20hz.jpg

[lradden]

Craig the HO looks like it's in between the PB12/2 and the DD-18, and these are in 22Hz mode, Wow! I'd love to see the same scenes in 16Hz mode with the turbo.

[craigsub]

Here are the same three scenes with the Turbo installed ...

Lightning scene:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...hsulgttrbo.jpg

Pods Emerge Scene:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...supodstrbo.jpg

Laser scene:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...ulasertrbo.jpg

[DrewB]

Good stuff, Craig. Can anyone do some overlays with these graphs?

[xcjago]

Awesome stuff!

And this is with only one VTF-3 HO? Can't wait to hear the results with two!

[xcjago]

I hope the review at Secrets gets an update.

[blindcat7]

Thanks for all the hard work you put in on these shootouts Craig. I got a lot out of what you've posted here and in a lot of other forums.

This latest effort has me wishing I had been able to get the early HO just to experience the difference. But I think that the upgrade from my old, cheaper Velodyne sub will be enough of a day and night.

Thanks again, and I can't wait to hear about what happens when you get the double whammy going.

Regards,

Chris

[Pete_Hsu]

Originally Posted by xcjago

I hope the review at Secrets gets an update.

Unfortunately Dr. Johnson does not have the unit in his possession anymore. Also, while we would love to have more reviews of this unit, we are also trying very hard to fill orders on the waiting list. However, I wholeheartedly agree that the revised units are much better at essentially all frequencies compared to the first run.

Sincerely,

[JonnyOzero3]

Originally Posted by Peter Marcks

Unfortunately Dr. Johnson does not have the unit in his possession anymore. Also, while we would love to have more reviews of this unit, we are also trying very hard to fill orders on the waiting list. However, I wholeheartedly agree that the revised units are much better at essentially all frequencies compared to the first run.

Sincerely,

Peter, since it looks like a significant update, I would like to second the idea that Dr. Johnson gets a chance to update his review sooner rather than later . Of course, this is coming from a guy who already has one (well as soon as Fedex shows up tomorrow).

[majorloser]

Well, I don't have mine yet. http://www.hsuresearch.com/forum/ima...lies/frown.gif

But I would definitely be willing to allow one of the professionals out there receive one for thorough testing and evaluation over sending one to me first (as long as I'm still on the list for future delivery http://www.hsuresearch.com/forum/ima...es/biggrin.gif )

[lradden]

Check out Craig's comments over on AVS in post #14 and then take a look at the overlay of the DD-18, PB12-Plus/ 2, HO Turbo & HO 22Hz.

Nice http://www.hsuresearch.com/forum/ima...es/biggrin.gif http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=736829

[DrewB]

Yes, the overlay is very revealing indeed. From an spl perspective looks like the HO with turbo can hang with the big dawgs! Two units should easily take the DD-18.

[Lwang]

I wonder why the DD-18's level was overlaid 3dB higher than the other subs? If it wasn't, its mid bass would be on level with the Hsu subs, and the turbo would have wipped it behind.

[xcjago]

It looks like it's only off by 1db or less. The DD18 113.5dB around 22hz, the VTF-3 HO is hitting 111dB. Now imagine two VTF3-HOs. 117dB!!

[Pete_Hsu]

I think the DD was overlaid about 0.5-1.0 db too high, not 3db. The other graphs appears to be fine. An "A" for effort though

[JonnyOzero3]

Don't forget, Jeff even said the Velo was +/- 1/2dB. Good enough for government work

[craigsub]

Jeff also sent me a note that doing the overlays is much easier if I do the charts to the same scale... And Ed Mullen dropped me a note with directions how to actually keep the charts together for each sub using the TrueRTA software ... it looks pretty simple, so a BIG thanks to Ed.

[Lwang]

The DD is around 3dB higher in the 18-27hz region, and again in the >40hz region. With the 18-27 region almost exactly the same on each sub, I would presume that is where every one of them would be lined up on.

[JonnyOzero3]

Craig - Don't be paranoid...but ED IS WATCHING YOU

[jmprader]

Originally Posted by JonnyOzero3

Craig - Don't be paranoid...but ED IS WATCHING YOU

Among several reviewers I'd like to see get their hands on an HO turbo, Ed would be one of those I'd like to see push the new HO to its limits. I think some of his efforts have helped refocus other "testers" which has brought a little more calm and seeming objectivity to the subwars.

[tdekany]

Originally Posted by jmprader

Among several reviewers I'd like to see get their hands on an HO turbo, Ed would be one of those I'd like to see push the new HO to its limits. I think some of his efforts have helped refocus other "testers" which has brought a little more calm and seeming objectivity to the subwars.

I am sure he is a good guy, but I'd not send him one if I was HSU based on previous tests from him.

Now pros from Stereophile, Absolute Sound, Sensible Sound???? Hell yeah!

[ThomasV]

I think that if JJ turns down a new review, the Ed should get to review it if not both. You know at least 20 amateur reviewers will be going over his review with a fine tooth comb, so not worried about an agenda. I think Ed wants and deserves to be more than SVS's reviewer of choice.
Doesn't Jason Serinus have the HO now?
How did that happen and can't they get it back from him to review?
Aren't all of you local?

[JonnyOzero3]

Well....

All I have to say is, "damn." Finally got the upgraded -3HO w/ Turbo up and running, and running it is. I don't have much basis for comparison, only my UFW-10 and what I remember of the old unit, but this does seem to be an upgrade to my untrained ears.

First impressions you ask? Well, I thought the old unit stomped the UFW-10 for impact and ability to pressurize the room - not that it was a surprise nor a knock on the Rocket. But, the UFW-10 did have an additional smoothness to the bass - it was more...velvety if you will. Just another notch up on the scale. My quick session tonight on some DVDs and some music - the new -3HO seemed to get a little closer to that smooth feel of bass that the UFW has, but it still has a ton more output, impact, and pressure in the room. Nice.

I was running the bass hot tonight (prob +6dB) and I didn't make the -3HO break a sweat (around 90+ dB max at the listening position, nearfield, in a ~3000sq ft room that is open to a laundry room and then a stairway to the rest of the house). I know...only 90+dB, but I'm letting it break in . I checked out Master & Cannonballs, Titan AE, WOWT DTS, and Finding Sushi, I mean, Nemo.

In conclusion, I doubt I will be able to push this sub to its limits in my room without actually trying. That's a good thing.

Peter, Dr. Hsu, I'm pissed; now I'll have to upgrade my mains to keep up. Dang you guys Thanks for making a great sub, and making the improvements you did. Sounds to me like it was worth the wait. I'll have some photos of the new driver up in another thread shortly.

[craigsub]

After a couple more days with the VTF-3 HO, it is becoming even more impressive. For a single 12 inch driver subwoofer to deliver this type of performance is remarkable.

Over the next few days, there will be some intense listening done with a variety of music, and a full report and summary given.

For now, suffice it to say I am anxious to get the initial listening of a single unit done, and firing up a pair of HO's in our room.

And ... the VTF-3 HO is starting to look (sound) like the best (ok, I know this is one man's opinion) sub I have heard for under $1500.

[Pete_Hsu]

WOW Craig, I'm absolutely speechless, and very honored and humbled by your words.

Most sincerely,

[jmprader]

Originally Posted by craigsub

...
And ... the VTF-3 HO is starting to look (sound) like the best (ok, I know this is one man's opinion) sub I have heard for under $1500.

I hope this is like Las Vegas...what's said in the Hsu forum stays in the Hsu forum...otherwise I'm donning my fireproof kevlar outerwear. There could be a nuclear winter around PA...

[JonnyOzero3]

Originally Posted by jmprader

I hope this is like Las Vegas...what's said in the Hsu forum stays in the Hsu forum...otherwise I'm donning my fireproof kevlar outerwear. There could be a nuclear winter around PA...

I was just thinking something along the same lines

[S.Cane]

Anybody know when we'll see these HO's and Turbo's on the products page? It seems like we've been hearing and reading about the HO and Turbo for quite some time now, but yet after all this time, neither one of them are listed on the products page. How does one go about ordering, and what finishes are they available in?

[JonnyOzero3]

Give Hsu a call: 1-800-554-0150

And for now, Matte Black and Blonde Maple

[S.Cane]

Originally Posted by JonnyOzero3

Give Hsu a call: 1-800-554-0150

And for now, Matte Black and Blonde Maple

Thanks Jonny, I wonder how well that Maple would blend with Oak. It's too bad HSU doesn't offer more finishes like SVS does. I think Oak and Rosewood would be a very nice addition.

That said, I know they've offered Rosewood in the past on some of their models, hopefully they will on the HO as well.

[Pete_Hsu]

Dear S. Cane,

We are working on a new website that will have VTF-3 HO, MBM-12, HB-1, HC-1, VT-12, turbocharger, STF/VTF Mk2, Accessories, etc displayed on the product pages. I don't know exactly when this will be up, but am hoping for end of this month and no later than sometime next month.

Sincerely,

[S.Cane]

Originally Posted by Peter Marcks

Dear S. Cane,

We are working on a new website that will have VTF-3 HO, MBM-12, HB-1, HC-1, turbocharger, STF/VTF Mk2, Accessories, etc displayed on the product pages. I don't know exactly when this will be up, but am hoping for end of this month and no later than sometime next month.

Sincerely,

Oh sweet, thanks for the info Peter. I've been a little behind on the up and up lately. Been busting my rump with the remodeling of my theater and haven't been posting much on any of the forums. I'll be looking forward to the new site! http://www.hsuresearch.com/forum/ima...lies/smile.gif


Sutter

[Pete_Hsu]

I knew that was you, Sutter, and it's great to have you here!

[S.Cane]

It's great to be here, Peter! I still hang over at the Home Theater Spot, I just don't post as much as I used to. I'm also found on AVS, AV123, and Home Theater Shack. I'm hoping to get back to posting and helping others along again real soon.

[Pete_Hsu]

Great to hear, my friend!

[S.Cane]

Ok, so what are some of these other new products, such as the MBM-12, HB-1, HC-1, VT-12? Goes to show how out of it I've been, I have not heard of any of these things. http://www.hsuresearch.com/forum/images/smilies/eek.gif lol

[Pete_Hsu]

MBM-12 = Mid-Bass Module, with ultra light cone 12" woofer and high headroom 350w amplifier designed specifically to reproduce mid/upper bass with high efficiency and low cost, is intended for nearfield use, and will ultimately reduce strain on the true subwoofer and give even higher dynamic range, lower distortion, and reduced room reflections vs. using the true subwoofer to handle all bass ranges.

HB-1 = Horn Bookshelf speaker, high sensitivity, very dynamic sounding, controlled directivity horn, sound is clear and crisp without sounding harsh or bright.

HC-1 = Horn Center Channel speaker, same principles as above.

VT-12 is our existing Ventriloquist small satellite speaker system, where the upper mid-bass hole found in very small satellite/sub systems is eliminated through use of a relatively large center channel speaker where bass 80-250Hz is routed to.

If you do a quick forum search for these products, you will get up to speed in no time.

Hope this helps!

[S.Cane]

Thanks again, Peter! I should have thought to do a search for these products, my apologies.

[Pete_Hsu]

No problem, it never hurts to ask!

[S.Cane]

Craig,

How would you compare the VTF-3HO to Axioms EP500? Having owned a pair of EP500's myself at one point in time, I'd be interested in hearing your take on the HO verses the 500.

[craigsub]

Sutter, the HO is as articulate as the EP-500, but with a deeper response and more output. This may make some people shudder, the the New "HO" combines the best of SVS's deep bass response and power with the best of Axiom's linearity and clarity.

It is one of those subs that makes a guy want to fire up some old favorite bass heavy discs.

[S.Cane]

Originally Posted by craigsub

Sutter, the HO is as articulate as the EP-500, but with a deeper response and more output. This may make some people shudder, the the New "HO" combines the best of SVS's deep bass response and power with the best of Axiom's linearity and clarity.

It is one of those subs that makes a guy want to fire up some old favorite bass heavy discs.

Ahh sweet, very cool. Dang there's so many good choices out there now and days, it's almost enough to drive a person nuts. HSU VTF-3HO, Axioms EP500/600, Rockets upcoming BMF-1, and SVS many offerings, whew, it sure gives people a lot to think about to say the least.

[JonnyOzero3]

Originally Posted by craigsub

Sutter, the HO is as articulate as the EP-500, but with a deeper response and more output. This may make some people shudder, the the New "HO" combines the best of SVS's deep bass response and power with the best of Axiom's linearity and clarity.

It is one of those subs that makes a guy want to fire up some old favorite bass heavy discs.

Damn, Craig - that's some heavy complimentation

("Complimentation?" Beer = License to create own grammar)

[craigsub]

JonO ... I can only imagine the new words we could get if you were drinking the HARD stuff ...

[JonnyOzero3]

I'm due to pick up a bottle of this....

http://www.thewhiskystore.de/dist/gmorangi/port_2.jpg

...sometime soon. So beware

[Pete_Hsu]

Very funny gentlemen

[joeongaro]

can't wait to get my upgraded driver and amp today! hurry mr. fedex guy !

[joeongaro]

Holy crap... just installed the new driver and upgraded amp. In front of my couch is a metal and glass coffee table and i happened to have my feet on it while watching the usual scenes in WOTW. I swear that table moved. i can only lift one side of it at a time it's so heavy. My couch vibrated in way that made me think that that this must be what it feels like when a butt kicker is hooked up to your couch. I am in awe!

mind you, this is running through my sms-1 but i didn't calibrate it and i did a quick phase check by comparing it to my ufw's and this was with the gain at probably 9 o'clock.

now i did upgrade my surrounds to rocket 760's so i'll replay the scene with the HO turned off to see if they added anything to the bass.

One word...stunned!

[Pete_Hsu]

Now you have left me speechless, joe! Thank you so much for sharing impressions on the forum.

Sincerely,

[lradden]

Guys, about a month after I received my HO that came with the upgraded driver and amp I posted about how much an improvement it was over even the "dual" VTF-3 MK2 setup. I'm glad to see others are shocked at the performance of this sub. I think a lot of people who had the original amp and driver thought I was exaggerating.

This sub is the real deal and at $899 w/turbo I feel like I pulled up to Hsu and stole it while the Dr. wasn't looking.

[Pete_Hsu]

Originally Posted by lradden

This sub is the real deal and at $899 w/turbo I feel like I pulled up to Hsu and stole it while the Dr. wasn't looking.

This has to be the quote of the day, as far as I am concerned. Very funny stuff, and had me laughing out loud!

[JonnyOzero3]

That's hilarious

[lradden]

Guys, the only problem is... I wasn't joking, I really do feel like I stole it while he wasn't looking. This kind of performance for $899? If I had heard the HO w/ turbo before purchasing one, I would have guessed at least $1500 or $1600. Heck the dual VTF-3 MK2 setup was $1400 and the HO w/turbo out performs that. Come on a sub that hits 12Hz and plays as loud as the HO combined with being this musical?

The Dr. really has outdone himself.

[craigsub]

More on the VTF-3 HO
Gents, this subwoofer is absolutely re-writing value. I was pretty apprehensive about the approach to the new HO, after my experience with the original in the spring, which was good, but not great.

Tonight, I tried it against the monster Sound Splinter sub, and the VTF-3 HO out performs it in every area but extension.

It is more articulate, more percussive, and you can hear some sounds that the Big sub misses ... and so does the SVS.

We started watching "24" on DVD, and there is a helicopter scene which is remarkable. Both the SVS and the DIY project make thumping sounds ... while the Hsu makes helicopter sounds.

The Hsu actually shook the floor with infrasonic bass, with complete linearity into the mains, while the other 2 subs managed to shake the floor.

The biggest compliment to the HO's is this:

I don't want to hook up the other 2 subwoofers any more ... the HO's are THAT good.

[craigsub]

Originally Posted by lradden

Guys, the only problem is... I wasn't joking, I really do feel like I stole it while he wasn't looking. This kind of performance for $899? If I had heard the HO w/ turbo before purchasing one, I would have guessed at least $1500 or $1600. Heck the dual VTF-3 MK2 setup was $1400 and the HO w/turbo out performs that. Come on a sub that hits 12Hz and plays as loud as the HO combined with being this musical?

The Dr. really has outdone himself.

Musical ... THAT is a word which describes this sub. What makes it musical is the clarity it delivers. For the ultimate test, I have never heard a more musical sub than the Velodyne DD-18 - and it will be brought into the main theater room for a head to head ...

What is unfortunate is how many people don't listen to subwoofers, but rather just look at graphs. I don't know what measurements would tell one why this sub sounds somuch better than its competition, even at moderate to low levels.

[Kjohn]

OK! Ok! you guys don't rub it in I must must have a HO although I am in no rush my two VTF-3 MKII's are still the stuff and less than a year old I am going to purchase the MBM 12 and play for a little while because like they say the 3 MKII ain't no slouch either both can compete with ease in my opinion on music and movies along with the big boys and in a dual setup are also REMARKABLE!! Now I'm scared my house is pretty new if I bring that HO in the nail pops will start in the drywall at a faster pace than the 3 MKII's have already started to do .

[JHixson]

Hey guys a question for the experts. I am really enjoying my HO it is way above my previous sub. The bass is smooth and I like the sound very much. The issue I am having is if I run a sweep and watch the SPL meter the level drops drasticaly around 26 HZ and then a few hurtz down starts coming back up. Would this be room placement? I am doing a college class now and really have not had time to move it around and play with it. It is in a family room with the kitchen behind me so I have the HO on a side wall 4' to my left. The room only has one corner front right which would put the sub about 14 feet away and not please the wife, would I loose bass in the large room moving the sub that far away and no longer nearfield? I am considering an SMS-1 but do not think that would be the right tool for bringing up a large null.

[xcjago]

Craig, would you say its as musical as the UFW-10? I remember with the old model, you said that sometimes you prefer the VTF-3 with the turbo and sometimes without. Is that still true, or would you say you always prefer the turbo now?

[joeongaro]

i think musical could be also said as articulate. i'm going to do some comparisons against my ufw-12's, which i think are very detailed.

[joeongaro]

forgot to mention that when i was listening to WOTW last night, i had my pocket doors open to my dining room and my front door open. can't imagine what things would have been like had they both been closed

[craigsub]

Originally Posted by xcjago

Craig, would you say its as musical as the UFW-10? I remember with the old model, you said that sometimes you prefer the VTF-3 with the turbo and sometimes without. Is that still true, or would you say you always prefer the turbo now?

I still have the UFW-12's here, and they are somewhat more articulate than the VTF-3 HO, but the HO more than makes up for that in extension and power. For a "percentage" estimate, the HO's have about 90% of the UFW-12's clarity/articulation while the UFW-12's have about 70% the power ans extension.

It will be interesting to see (hear) what Mark Seaton does with the "hot rodded" UFW-12 ... but that is strictly speculation now.

[Ilkka]

Originally Posted by craigsub

What is unfortunate is how many people don't listen to subwoofers, but rather just look at graphs. I don't know what measurements would tell one why this sub sounds somuch better than its competition, even at moderate to low levels.

Don't be so skeptic Craig. It would be interesting to find out whether measurements could reveal why HO sounds so good to you and others who have heard it.

Hopefully I'll get the chance to measure one some day. I'll already have the data for the VTF-3 MK2, so it will be easy to compare them.

[craigsub]

Originally Posted by Ilkka

Don't be so sceptic Craig. It would be interesting to find out whether measurements could reveal why HO sounds so good to you and others who have heard it.

Hopefully I'll get the chance to measure one some day. I'll already have the data for the VTF-3 MK2, so it will be easy to compare them.

Ilkka, that is not being a skeptic ... I really don't know what measurements would tell one what the difference in sound quality is. Maybe someday, it will be possible.

[Ilkka]

Originally Posted by craigsub

Ilkka, that is not being a skeptic ... I really don't knw what measurements would tell one what the difference in sound quality is. Maybe someday, it will be possible.

I believe it's the combination of many measurements; frequency response, max output (both constant and dynamic) and the overall distortion profile being the most important three.

[JonnyOzero3]

Don't forget to measure the amount of hit points each sub has. That is very important.

[craigsub]

Originally Posted by Ilkka

I believe it's the combination of many measurements; frequency response, max output (both constant and dynamic) and the overall distortion profile being the most important three.

All good subwoofers will have linear response curves, sufficient output to handle the track's requirement without compressing, and distortion which is not audible.

However, not all subwoofers which can deliver on these three will sound the same.

The Velodyne DD-18 and PB12-Plus/2 are perfect examples of this. In graphing, the PB12-Plus/2 looks like it is a stronger performer.

Listen to each in a real room, and the Velodyne is quite superior.

[Ilkka]

Originally Posted by craigsub

All good subwoofers will have linear response curves, sufficient output to handle the track's requirement without compressing, and distortion which is not audible.

However, not all subwoofers which can deliver on these three will sound the same.

The Velodyne DD-18 and PB12-Plus/2 are perfect examples of this. In graphing, the PB12-Plus/2 looks like it is a stronger performer.

Listen to each in a real room, and the Velodyne is quite superior.

It's not that simple Craig. No two subwoofers are identical when it comes to frequency response, max output and distortion. Nor all "good" subwoofers have "enough" of them all.

How come the DD18 and the Plus/2 are perfect examples of this? Plus/2 has much worse frequency response, less extension, more THD and much less output (especially dynamic) in the most important frequency range. The Plus/2 beats the DD18 only in constant output in narrow 15-35 Hz range, though having much more THD then. That certainly doesn't make it a better sounding subwoofer.

It couldn't be more obvious why DD18 sounds better to you and many others.

And I'm pretty sure the same clear difference can be seen between the VTF-3 MK2 and the VTF-3 HO too.

[Pete_Hsu]

Dear Ilkka,

I agree with what you are saying in general, but I wouldn't say that people would find the same difference (as the two subs mentioned above) to apply for VTF-3 Mk2 vs VTF-3 HO, of course. The VTF-3 Mk2 cannot compete in the deepest bass with the 3 HO, but in the mid/upper bass the Mk2 sounds very punchy because of [in my opinion] very good headroom and lack of compression in this region compared to the deep bass range. Of course, with MBM-12 added to the VTF-3 HO, things swing back in the HO's favor in the mid/upper bass. But then again, the MBM-12 will provide some substantial benefits to any of our subwoofers (Mk2, HO, etc).

Sincerely,

[craigsub]

Originally Posted by Ilkka

It's not that simple Craig. No two subwoofers are identical when it comes to frequency response, max output and distortion. Nor all "good" subwoofers have "enough" of them all.

How come the DD18 and the Plus/2 are perfect examples of this? Plus/2 has much worse frequency response, less extension, more THD and much less output (especially dynamic) in the most important frequency range. The Plus/2 beats the DD18 only in constant output in narrow 15-35 Hz range, though having much more THD then. That certainly doesn't make it a better sounding subwoofer.

It couldn't be more obvious why DD18 sounds better to you and many others.

And I'm pretty sure the same clear difference can be seen between the VTF-3 MK2 and the VTF-3 HO too.

I never said any 2 subwoofers are identical in measured performance. Please stop twisting my words.

Interesting wording you have, too. A "good" subwoofer can have insufficient output and extension? How is that possible ?

Ironically, when I said the same things about the DD-18 last year (its superiority to the PB12-Ultra), in reference to its overall performance, the things that were said about my conclusions based on LISTENING tests were pretty harsh.

[Ilkka]

Originally Posted by Peter Marcks

Dear Ilkka,

I agree with what you are saying in general, but I wouldn't say that people would find the same difference (as the two subs mentioned above) to apply for VTF-3 Mk2 vs VTF-3 HO, of course. The VTF-3 Mk2 cannot compete in the deepest bass with the 3 HO, but in the mid/upper bass the Mk2 sounds very punchy because of [in my opinion] very good headroom and lack of compression in this region compared to the deep bass range. Of course, with MBM-12 added to the VTF-3 HO, things swing back in the HO's favor in the mid/upper bass. But then again, the MBM-12 will provide some substantial benefits to any of our subwoofers (Mk2, HO, etc).

Sincerely,

Peter,

Maybe you got me wrong? I didn't meant that the MK2 and the HO would be having same kind of differences as the DD18 and the Plus/2 have.

I meant that since people keep reporting much improvement performance over the MK2, I'm sure the measurements can show why they feel/hear so. And I agree with your thoughts about the mid/upper bass headroom. I wouldn't be surprised to see the MK2 having more of that then the HO.

[Pete_Hsu]

Originally Posted by Ilkka

Peter,

Maybe you got me wrong? I didn't meant that the MK2 and the HO would be havinng same kind of differences as the DD18 and the Plus/2 have.

I meant that since people keep reporting much improvement performance over the MK2, I'm sure the measurements can show why they feel/hear so. And I agree with your thoughts about the mid/upper bass headroom. I wouldn't be surprised to see the MK2 having more of that then the HO.

I know you meant that, Ilkka, but I did want to clarify for others that the performance differences between HO and Mk2 were a bit different than the specific example above. Definitely measurements without room influence can give us some insight into why we would hear some differences, although naturally there is also unique elements about each room and each setup, which is why Craig often insists that these impressions are based on his individual tastes and preferences in his room.

[Ilkka]

Originally Posted by craigsub

Interesting wording you have, too. A "good" subwoofer can have insufficient output and extension? How is that possible ?

There is no such thing as sufficient output. There is only more or less. And more headroom is always better. As Mark Seaton has said, most subwoofers perform at their best at least 20 dB below their maximum output. You might want to take a look at those performance charts again...

Ironically, when I said the same things about the DD-18 last year (its superiority to the PB12-Ultra), in reference to its overall performance, the things that were said about my conclusions based on LISTENING tests were pretty harsh.

I don't recall saying such things (nor you did claim it). Who said them?

[Ilkka]

Originally Posted by Peter Marcks

I know you meant that, Ilkka, but I did want to clarify for others that the performance differences between HO and Mk2 were a bit different than the specific example above. Definitely measurements without room influence can give us some insight into why we would hear some differences, although naturally there is also unique elements about each room and each setup, which is why Craig often insists that these impressions are based on his individual tastes and preferences in his room.

Yes, that's why I want to do my performance measurements outside, so that room, setup or individual taste can't affect those.

[craigsub]

Originally Posted by Ilkka

There is no such thing as sufficient output. There is only more or less. And more headroom is always better. As Mark Seaton has said, most subwoofers perform at their best at least 20 dB below their maximum output. You might want to take a look at those performance charts again...


I don't recall saying such things (nor you did claim it). Who said them?

Ilkka ... I am not in the mood, nor do I have the time, for your word games. Now there is no such thing as sufficient output, in your words.

This means every subwoofer system in insufficient. Why do I get the feeling I won't find you saying your SVS system is insufficient in any post prior to today ?

[Pete_Hsu]

I think that both Craig and Ilkka have valid points. Craig correctly asserts that listening tests must be performed to guage actual differences in sound quality in-room, while Ilkka correctly asserts that measurements without room influence can help give us some idea about why we would hear differences between subwoofers. I don't think these ideas are mutually exclusive in any way, and I feel that deep down, both Craig and Ilkka agree with these ideas. So, you see, no need for arguing further on these points.

[Ilkka]

Originally Posted by craigsub

Ilkka ... I am not in the mood, nor do I have the time, for your word games. Now there is no such thing as sufficient output, in your words.

This means every subwoofer system in insufficient.

This isn't a word game. You said that "All good subwoofers will have linear response curves, sufficient output to handle the track's requirement without compressing, and distortion which is not audible.. Of course that depends of what you mean by the word "good", but in general that is not true. Every system will benefit from added headroom. Check out for example Keith Yates' WDD waterfalls:
http://www.ultimateavmag.com/images/...waterfalls.jpg
http://www.ultimateavmag.com/images/...waterfalls.jpg
http://www.ultimateavmag.com/images/...waterfalls.jpg

Not a single sub could produce all the demanding material on those tracks. And those reference waterwalls can't even grab the most demanding macro dynamics. How about the new HD audio tracks? Even more dynamics and complex signals.

Multi-driver IBs are about as close as one gets to a "sufficient" system, though almost all of them would still take advance of adding more drivers and headroom.

A single 18" or two 12" in a large room isn't nearly sufficient. Buy another DD18 and you'll notice it very quickly.

And I'm not trying to be impertinent with you. I'm just trying to explain that there are some explainable reasons (I would like to say measurable) why some subs sound better than the others. There is no magic involved (you haven't said there would be).

Why do I get the feeling I won't find you saying your SVS system is insufficient in any post prior to today ?

I'm sure you won't, since this issue haven't came up before.

[craigsub]

Ilkka, This is why I avoid you. Had Mark Seaton or Ed Mullen said "All good subwoofers will have linear response curves, sufficient output to handle the track's requirement without compressing, and distortion which is not audible.", you would be in agreement. When I say it, you argue.

I leave your threads alone, and would appreciate the same courtesy from you.

As an aside, the idea that more air movement (meaning drivers in this case) is better is not a new idea. It started around 1940.

[Ilkka]

Originally Posted by craigsub

Ilkka, This is why I avoid you. Had Mark Seaton or Ed Mullen said "All good subwoofers will have linear response curves, sufficient output to handle the track's requirement without compressing, and distortion which is not audible.", you would be in agreement. When I say it, you argue.

That's your own imagination speaking. I do not hate you, it's just some things you say that irks me.

I leave your threads alone, and would appreciate the same courtesy from you.

I would love to have you commenting on "my threads". As long as you can keep it clean and contribute to the thread of course. I don't understand why I'm not allowed to do the same in "your threads"? More knowledge and different views to look at the situation should always be welcomed, right?

[lradden]

Ok can we please end this and get back to the HO listening & testing. I was really enjoying this thread until now. Sorry for being so forward but I just don't want to see this thread closed. This stuff always starts as a small disagreement and spirals out of control.

Craig anymore graphs?

[craigsub]

Originally Posted by lradden

Ok can we please end this and get back to the HO listening & testing. I was really enjoying this thread until now. Sorry for being so forward but I just don't want to see this thread closed. This stuff always starts as a small disagreement and spirals out of control.

Craig anymore graphs?

Good idea .. and I did find out something new today - this forum also has an "ignore" function.

As soon as we get a break in the weather, I will be doing some GP testing on a few of these subs.

[jmprader]

Can anyone tell me where I can find a "waving the white flag" smiley?

[craigsub]

lradden ... The "ignore" comment was not directed at you. I agree, it is time to get back to what this thread is about: The VTF-3 HO. I re-read what I had posted, and it looked like I was "talking" to you.

jmprader ... "White Flag smiley" ... Good one !

There is not much new to report at this time. Right now, I will be listening to more discs, and also waiting for the right weather to do some GP testing.

[S.Cane]

Originally Posted by jmprader

Can anyone tell me where I can find a "waving the white flag" smiley?

http://www.philwoods.com/forums/imag.../surrender.gif http://www.nvnews.net/vbulletin/imag.../surrender.gif

[lradden]

Originally Posted by craigsub

lradden ... The "ignore" comment was not directed at you. I agree, it is time to get back to what this thread is about: The VTF-3 HO. I re-read what I had posted, and it looked like I was "talking" to you.

jmprader ... "White Flag smiley" ... Good one !

There is not much new to report at this time. Right now, I will be listening to more discs, and also waiting for the right weather to do some GP testing.

Craig no problem, I knew it wasn't directed at me. I've read your post from Audioholics, AVS, Hsu etc... and I've seen your testing get sidetracked by several individuals. I appreciate all the work you do and I enjoy your threads very much. It's just that your threads always seem to get closed no matter where they take place. For one reason or another people always want to take the threads in a new direction and get an argument going.

Keep up the good work and please keep the info coming.

[Active Speaker]

I am thrilled that you are willing to spend your time (and pocketbook) sharing your experiences with all these different subs; thank you, Craig.

[joeongaro]

Can we not have a forum where Ilkka isn't arguing just to be arguing. If it's not here, its av123, or avs.

He seems to always miss what craig is trying to say. Numbers don't tell you everything. ultimately it comes down to how a sub or just about any audio gear sounds to the individual. we can quantify certain things but it comes down to preference or what we like to hear.

honestly, i love reading the discussions until Illka joins in and ruins it for everyone. can't you bother people on Finnish audio sites because if i never heard from you again i wouldn't be upset.

[craigsub]

Originally Posted by joeongaro

Numbers don't tell you everything. ultimately it comes down to how a sub or just about any audio gear sounds to the individual. we can quantify certain things but it comes down to preference or what we like to hear.

Taking the middle portion of your post, and expanding it: When I said that all good subwoofers will have sufficient output, extension and inaudible distortion, what that means is that establishes the ground floor of the performance required.

After that, it takes careful listening to decide which is best for any one person, and for that person's room.

We all "kinda know that" already, so the purpose of this exercise is to provide evidence of it. When I can FINALLY GP these subs, there will be simple graphs showing what the actual harmonics are. For example, if the 20 Hz fundamental is 102 dB, and the 40 Hz Harmonic is 92 dB, then it is a 10% harmonic.

There will also be QS max output curves for quick dynamic pulses, and FR cruves run.

Beyond that, we will have the subjective listening tests. Hopefully, they will be of value.

[joeongaro]

Sorry for my rant earlier. I just get so sick of reading a thread that gets derailed by people who just want to stir the pot and argue. I do feel debating a issue is required but things have been getting out of control.

So it seems that the dd18 tends to set the bar which other subs are compared to. What is interesting is that I auditioned some vandersteen speakers and they guy was telling me how the subs they make have an adjustable Q. Interesting. And then a comment was made that you could dial it in with a lower Q to have tighter bass or crank it up and make it sound like a velodyne. it so happens that i was also looking at the dd15. now, i didn't get a chance to hear this sub but it has always made me wonder if the velodyne's don't produce bass as well as we think.

[cschang]

Originally Posted by joeongaro

Can we not have a forum where Ilkka isn't arguing just to be arguing. If it's not here, its av123, or avs.

He seems to always miss what craig is trying to say. Numbers don't tell you everything. ultimately it comes down to how a sub or just about any audio gear sounds to the individual. we can quantify certain things but it comes down to preference or what we like to hear.

honestly, i love reading the discussions until Illka joins in and ruins it for everyone. can't you bother people on Finnish audio sites because if i never heard from you again i wouldn't be upset.

I agree with you wholeheartedly.

Lately, I have tried to stay out of the "mine is better than yours" threads, and eventhough this really isn't one...I had to post something.

It is obvious that there are people that want you to think that numbers are more important, and even within that, certain numbers. The same people stir the pot when a "certain" subwoofer company is seemingly put at a disadvantage.

There is no "formula" as of yet as to what sounds best to the majority of people. There are a lot of numbers that are good to have, that is undeniable, but the entire is picture has not been drawn up.

[Ilkka]

Originally Posted by cschang

It is obvious that there are people that want you to think that numbers are more important, and even within that, certain numbers. The same people stir the pot when a "certain" subwoofer company is seemingly put at a disadvantage.

I don't want to sidetrack this thread, but did you read my posts? I didn't try to praise Plus/2's numbers, in fact it was the other way around. Craig said that the Plus/2 would score better numbers than the DD18.

I replied as follows: "Plus/2 has much worse frequency response, less extension, more THD and much less output (especially dynamic) in the most important frequency range. The Plus/2 beats the DD18 only in constant output in narrow 15-35 Hz range, though having much more THD then. That certainly doesn't make it a better sounding subwoofer."

Am I really praising SVS?

And I never said numbers are more important than listening. I only said they are connected very heavily.

[cschang]

you already sidetracked it.

Originally Posted by Ilkka

And I never said numbers are more important than listening. I only said they are connected very heavily.

Right...and then you went on with specific numbers.

[Ilkka]

Originally Posted by cschang

Right...and then you went on with specific numbers.

Umm...where?

[cschang]

Originally Posted by Ilkka

Umm...where?

Ummm....here:

Originally Posted by Ilkka

I believe it's the combination of many measurements; frequency response, max output (both constant and dynamic) and the overall distortion profile being the most important three.

[craigsub]

Originally Posted by joeongaro

Sorry for my rant earlier. I just get so sick of reading a thread that gets derailed by people who just want to stir the pot and argue. I do feel debating a issue is required but things have been getting out of control.

So it seems that the dd18 tends to set the bar which other subs are compared to. What is interesting is that I auditioned some vandersteen speakers and they guy was telling me how the subs they make have an adjustable Q. Interesting. And then a comment was made that you could dial it in with a lower Q to have tighter bass or crank it up and make it sound like a velodyne. it so happens that i was also looking at the dd15. now, i didn't get a chance to hear this sub but it has always made me wonder if the velodyne's don't produce bass as well as we think.

The DD-18 is a fantastic subwoofer ... It "won" best overall performer in the Ultaimate A/V test 2 years ago, and is the best overall sounding subwoofer I have yet heard.

HOWEVER (caps on purpose, of course)

This does not mean the DD-18 will necessarily "win" the overall compeition coming up.

It score 100 to the Maestro's 98 in a head to head test.

Let's say that the SMS-1 assisted "ACME SUB" manages to outdo the Velodyne ... and scores 104 ... it won't mean the DD-18 got any worse, just that something was actually better.

The Velodyne is being used as a bench mark because it:

1. Is an excellent product
2. It is a VERY known quantity, with almost 2 years here.

[Ilkka]

Originally Posted by cschang

Ummm....here:

Ahh, ok. I don't consider those as numbers, they are variables to me. But yes, I consider them the most important three (and the right balance between them). When the subwoofer is brougth indoors, you can naturally add in-room frequency response (how flat it is and how well the subwoofer integrates to main's frequency response).

[greddy09sc]

**Waiving white flag**

I really don't know craigsub or Ikka well. But from reading this thread, it kinda went down hill once Ikka jumped in.

With that said. Ikka, can you please just let craigsub reply with his thoughts and opinion? If you disagree, then open up another thread to fight it out. Leave it out of this thread.

[joeongaro]

Illka,

did you see what i did with craig. i suggested that maybe velodyne's aren't as good sounding as we all think and that maybe there is better stuff out there. It doesn't matter who is right or wrong because with all of this there isn't a right answer. now maybe one of these days craig gets ahold of a vandersteen sub, which really aren't spendy, and compares them to the plethora of subs he has. maybe he comes back and says that he couldn't tell a difference. you know what, i'd respect his opinion rather than trying to convince him that he is wrong or searching the web for a thread that contradicts something he might have said.

obviously craig loves to show graphs and does tests on his own dime and time. i very much appreciate this because i don't have either of those but am still curious how different subs match up. Honestly, i'm suprised he still posts for all the grief he gets from people like you. I feel he finds a respectable balance between numbers and what your ear hears. i can't say that you've proven that. in fact, i find that sooner or later you have a way of irritating me with whatever you post. god, i can't imagine what you are like in real life.

[jmprader]

Originally Posted by S.Cane

http://www.philwoods.com/forums/imag.../surrender.gif http://www.nvnews.net/vbulletin/imag.../surrender.gif

I checked out of this thread for a few days, so a belated "thank you very much, you provided an important piece of much needed levity.

You got a pirate in that collection of yours, too?

[S.Cane]

Originally Posted by jmprader

I checked out of this thread for a few days, so a belated "thank you very much, you provided an important piece of much needed levity.

You got a pirate in that collection of yours, too?

Not a problem bud, you're welcome.

Got a few pirate ones for ya......

http://bestsmileys.com/pirate/1.gif http://bestsmileys.com/pirate/2.gif http://bestsmileys.com/pirate/3.gif

[jmprader]

Originally Posted by S.Cane

Not a problem bud, you're welcome.

Got a few pirate ones for ya......

http://bestsmileys.com/pirate/1.gif http://bestsmileys.com/pirate/2.gif http://bestsmileys.com/pirate/3.gif

Arrrr!

And mighty fine pirates they be, matey.

Let them serve as symbols of warnin' to future thread interlopers, trolls and others bent on interruptin' the polite discourse of ardinary lubbers surfin' these threads.

[Bossobass]

Hi all,

Wow. I tuned in to check out the new sub from Craig's perspective, which I consider to be a well versed one, indeed.

FWIW, I think Ilk is getting a bad rap here. In fact, I think that...

Originally Posted by Ilkka
I believe it's the combination of many measurements; frequency response, max output (both constant and dynamic) and the overall distortion profile being the most important three.

...is one of the smartest 1 sentence summaries for subs that I've read recently. I also happen to agree with it 100%.

I also don't think that TrueRTA peak hold graphs say much about the SQ of a subwoofer, but those who think numbers don't say all that much really seem to like seeing them added to the subjective presentation.

I say 'It's all good', both Craig's and Ilk's input. I always take away something good when they bicker (which I wish they could avoid, but yeah, like I EVER get what I want ), because both do, as Peter pointed out, have valid points, and in between the bickering are many good points about subs and low freqs...which is why I tune in.

Congrats Peter on what seems to be another very fine product from the good folks at Hsu.

Bosso

[Lwang]

Of course it is a combination of some measurement. It's like saying holographic, "you are there" musical playback is quantifiable by measurements. But what measurements is the key that accoustic engineers around the world has been trying forever to find. Using the term distortion is so general since every non-linear output is a form of distortion.

[Pete_Hsu]

Thank you very very much for the kind words, Bosso, and always a pleasure to see you here!

Take care

Sincerely,

[wuchi]

Originally Posted by Ilkka

That's your own imagination speaking. I do not hate you, it's just some things you say that irks me.


I would love to have you commenting on "my threads". As long as you can keep it clean and contribute to the thread of course. I don't understand why I'm not allowed to do the same in "your threads"? More knowledge and different views to look at the situation should always be welcomed, right?

""" to lead is to follow and to follow is to lead """"

"""""""" do you understand? """"""""""


whether conscious or subconscious, we do need a bigger door

don't you think? you betcha!!!! hehehehe......... I love it!

as a matter of fact I wrote a new song dedicated to this, called it "PLAY WITH MY HEAD AND i'll play with yours"

I do hope we all have a sense of humour....p.s. last post for this one

[wuchi]

sorry guys but I could not control myself

[wuchi]

nothing wrong with a heated debate,


I DO HOPE THIS THREAD CONTINUES...........................

[JonnyOzero3]

So.....how about that arctic cold front eh?

[gbondioli]

Originally Posted by craigsub

Sutter, the HO is as articulate as the EP-500, but with a deeper response and more output. This may make some people shudder, the the New "HO" combines the best of SVS's deep bass response and power with the best of Axiom's linearity and clarity.

First of all, is Craig referencing the HO with or without the Turbo?
Second, if the HO is deeper than an EP500 with more output, does that put it at the same level as an EP600? If not, why?
Lastly, I was planning to get an EP600 and later add and EP500 to smooth out the response, IF I felt it necessary. Would I achieve the same results with a VTF-HO Turbo, and adding a non-Turbo HO later if necessary?
(Due to room restrictions, the EP600 or HO Turbo would be behind seating, and the additional EP500 or HO would go under the projection screen).
Oh yeah, what is the height of the HO without the Turbo attachment?
Thanks!

Oh wait, one more question, please:
I've been assured that an EP500/600 combo would blend well together. Would a Turbo + non-Turbo VTF-3 HO "blend" well, too?

[S.Cane]

Originally Posted by gbondioli

First of all, is Craig referencing the HO with or without the Turbo?

This is a very good question, and one I failed to ask Craig when I followed up with my responce. I too would like to know the answer to this.

It would be sweet if it's without the turbo, simply because due to the size of my screen, I'm not sure if I'll be able to get the turbo's to add on to the pair of HO's I'll be ordering. http://www.hsuresearch.com/forum/ima...lies/frown.gif

[craigsub]

Gents ... Starting the week of the 16th, you will be seeing more info regarding the VTF-3 HO. My son is involved heavily in his high school swim team, and we are doing weekly invitationals through next weekend ... and one major one on the 16th.

I have had great success with and without the Turbo installed, but will give more detailed info later, after more testing is done.

[craigsub]

Originally Posted by craigsub

Gents ... Starting the week of the 16th, you will be seeing more info regarding the VTF-3 HO. My son is involved heavily in his high school swim team, and we are doing weekly invitationals through next weekend ... and one major one on the 16th.

I have had great success with and without the Turbo installed, but will give more detailed info later, after more testing is done.

Ok ... I got inspired, and now have a stacked pair of VTF-3 HO's next to the pair of Fathom's. The HO's are running single port, 16 Hz, and have been EQ'ed with the Velodyne SMS-1 to within a +/- 2 dB window from 15 Hz up.

For the next 3-4 weeks, it will be Fathoms vs. HO's.

[tdekany]

Originally Posted by craigsub

Ok ... I got inspired, and now have a stacked pair of VTF-3 HO's next to the pair of Fathom's. The HO's are running single port, 16 Hz, and have been EQ'ed with the Velodyne SMS-1 to within a +/- 2 dB window from 15 Hz up.

For the next 3-4 weeks, it will be Fathoms vs. HO's.

wish you could use the turbos and 2 mbms and see how that package would compares to the F113s

[S.Cane]

Originally Posted by craigsub

Ok ... I got inspired, and now have a stacked pair of VTF-3 HO's next to the pair of Fathom's. The HO's are running single port, 16 Hz, and have been EQ'ed with the Velodyne SMS-1 to within a +/- 2 dB window from 15 Hz up.

For the next 3-4 weeks, it will be Fathoms vs. HO's. http://www.hsuresearch.com/forum/ima...lies/smile.gif

Hey Craig, wish your son good luck for me, ok!

Also, if it's not too much trouble, when posting your results, could you state whether or not that's with or without the turbo installed?

I'm very interested in knowing just how well the VTF-3HO's preform without the turbo, because as I stated, I've got a pretty big screen and when I order my HO's, I don't think I'm going to be able to purchase the turbo's, simply because I won't have the clearence for them. http://www.hsuresearch.com/forum/ima...lies/frown.gif

Perhaps maybe later on down the road, I might be able to purchase the turbo's. For the time being though, the two HO's will be placed up front, under my screen and there simply isn't enough clearence to had the turbo's to the HO's.

[craigsub]

Originally Posted by tdekany

wish you could use the turbos and 2 mbms and see how that package would compares to the F113s

Unfortunately, I could not do quick A/B switching between the 2 set ups in this configuration .... space won't allow for the 2 Turbos side by side AND the 113's. However, a non A/B test, sighted, could be done easily enough.

S. Cane - We are not using the Turbo for anything for this test ... until you read otherwise, it is single port, 16 Hz tuning, non-Turbo.

[Pete_Hsu]

Craig,

Have you noticed any difference in sound quality when having the two subwoofers stacked vs side by side?

Thank you, and hope you are having a happy holidays!

Sincerely,

[craigsub]

Originally Posted by Peter Marcks

Craig,

Have you noticed any difference in sound quality when having the two subwoofers stacked vs side by side?

Thank you, and hope you are having a happy holidays!

Sincerely,

Peter, in this location, no there is no difference. OF course, that can change in other rooms easily enough.

I am also going to make a change in 2 weeks, and drop to one Turbo Equipped sub vs. one Fathom.

The subs are located here, BTW ... I will try to get new pics of them this weekend. This pic is of the twin turbos side by side, before driver/amp upgrade

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...peakers029.jpg

[jmargaglione]

Craigsub,

Did you ever get a chance to compare the VTF-3 HO with MDM-12 against the Fathom 112 or 113? I would like to hear your opinion on this, as you and I test subs the same way (we LISTEN!), and these are the only two subs I can not audition in my area (at least not side by side).

In particular, how were the lows and how musical was each sub/combo?

Thanks!

John

[kingtut]

Craig is still recovering from a virus, according the thread on AVS. Hopefully, Craig will 100% soon.

[cacihome]

Originally Posted by Peter Marcks

That's so great to hear, Craig, I really appreciate that you are posting impressions of the unit!

It would be very interesting to get your opinion on maximum output (22Hz), vs extended bass (16Hz w/ port plug) vs extended bass (16Hz w/ turbo) modes too when you have a chance sometime during the year. I imagine that there will be some give and take depending on the demo material.

Thanks again!

Sincerely,

Peter:

What are the maximum output numbers we can expect for the VTF-3 MK3 for the "25hz" option in a typical room no more than 3,000cufft?